Gibson Guitars - illegal???

[HowItIs]

This might be skirting SOCN territory as the story is from a political site, but I think it's important that all guitar players see it, so I'm posting here...

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/27/1...gain?via=recent

 

QUOTE

Gibson Guitar Corp's chief executive said on Thursday he would fight a federal investigation of the legendary guitar maker's wood imports after agents raided the company for the second time in two years. Federal agents raided Gibson facilities in Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee, on Wednesday, seizing wood imported from India, and workers were sent home. In an affidavit, authorities indicated they are weighing charges against the company or its executives for illegally importing wood under a U.S. law barring importation of endangered plants and woods. The company has sued to recover its property.

 

The implications are far-reaching. If overzealous and indiscriminate laws are applied like this, then foreign musicians won't be able to bring their instruments into the country.

 

We can do something, though. Contact your Congress Critters and turn your amps up at them! Figuratively. Call, write, complain LOUDLY. This is not only a serious situation for players, it's a huge waste of taxpayer money.

 

IT'S EASY TO DO

 

Let me just add... I am not encouraging or condoning the illegal use of exotic wood. Nor am I aware of any traveling musician's axe being confiscated. Yet the potential is there. If some TSA guy gets a hair up his arse about it, who knows how far they would carry that?

 

This is just something to be aware of and try to get a handle on before all the legal implications cause it to go somewhere very bad. I would also suggest the caveat, "follow the money" as this might be at the root of the entire matter.

Edited August 27, 2011 by HowItIs

[USB Connector]

If Gibson is truly using endangered plants/trees to make their instruments then the government has every right to take action.

[HowItIs]

QUOTE (USB Connector @ Aug 27 2011, 03:03 PM)

If Gibson is truly using endangered plants/trees to make their instruments then the government has every right to take action.

In the article they state that they have all the proper import and export papers from India.

[USB Connector]

QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 27 2011, 07:48 PM)

QUOTE (USB Connector @ Aug 27 2011, 03:03 PM) If Gibson is truly using endangered plants/trees to make their instruments then the government has every right to take action. In the article they state that they have all the proper import and export papers from India. Check the last sentence of your quote:   In an affidavit, authorities indicated they are weighing charges against the company or its executives for illegally importing wood under a U.S. law barring importation of endangered plants and woods. The company has sued to recover its property.

[Ancient Ways]

QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 27 2011, 05:58 PM)

This might be skirting SOCN territory as the story is from a political site, but I think it's important that all guitar players see it, so I'm posting here... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/27/1...gain?via=recent QUOTE Gibson Guitar Corp's chief executive said on Thursday he would fight a federal investigation of the legendary guitar maker's wood imports after agents raided the company for the second time in two years. Federal agents raided Gibson facilities in Nashville and Memphis, Tennessee, on Wednesday, seizing wood imported from India, and workers were sent home. In an affidavit, authorities indicated they are weighing charges against the company or its executives for illegally importing wood under a U.S. law barring importation of endangered plants and woods. The company has sued to recover its property.   The implications are far-reaching. If overzealous and indiscriminate laws are applied like this, then foreign musicians won't be able to bring their instruments into the country.   We can do something, though. Contact your Congress Critters and turn your amps up at them! Figuratively. Call, write, complain LOUDLY. This is not only a serious situation for players, it's a huge waste of taxpayer money.   IT'S EASY TO DO   Let me just add... I am not encouraging or condoning the illegal use of exotic wood. Nor am I aware of any traveling musician's axe being confiscated. Yet the potential is there. If some TSA guy gets a hair up his arse about it, who knows how far they would carry that?   This is just something to be aware of and try to get a handle on before all the legal implications cause it to go somewhere very bad. I would also suggest the caveat, "follow the money" as this might be at the root of the entire matter. I read the story earlier and didn't see any evidence that this has anything to do with traveling musicians personal equipment. Where are you getting this angle of the story?

[go2wrk@95974]

Regulating wood for guitars????.... ????

 

Perfect case of the Gov./congress sticking their nose

in a place/situation, where it doesn't belong...

 

We got to fight this..way to much regulation.

Enough is enough.We have to shrink gov.,

or else big-brother is gonna be knockin' on

all our door's, in a serious way....real soon.

 

Our freedom's are being eroded more and more,

everyday..to the point where we might not have

any left, in 5-10 yrs. or so...Bad situation.

Sad time in American history,imo.

 

[danielmclark]

QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 07:15 PM)

Our freedom's are being eroded more and more, everyday..

Your... freedom? What freedom? The freedom to harvest endangered species of trees and import them into this country from halfway around the world? That's the freedom you're concerned about?

 

Geez... talk about First World Problems.

 

If they're eradicating a species for the sake of building a musical instrument then, yeah, there's something wrong with that and it's got nothing to do with your imaginary god-given rights and freedoms.

[go2wrk@95974]

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Aug 27 2011, 06:33 PM)

QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 07:15 PM) Our freedom's are being eroded more and more, everyday.. Your... freedom? What freedom? The freedom to harvest endangered species of trees and import them into this country from halfway around the world? That's the freedom you're concerned about?   Geez... talk about First World Problems.   If they're eradicating a species for the sake of building a musical instrument then, yeah, there's something wrong with that and it's got nothing to do with your imaginary god-given rights and freedoms. No, I'm talkin' American freedom, in general terms, is eroding.that's a fact..congress is outta control. Period...I like/and defend trees too.I wish none of them were cut down, to tell ya the truth..but that's not reality, unfortunately.....we all must have wood for tables,etc. and paper, that's a fact of life, like it or not.

[Can-Utility]

QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 06:57 PM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Aug 27 2011, 06:33 PM) QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 07:15 PM) Our freedom's are being eroded more and more, everyday.. Your... freedom? What freedom? The freedom to harvest endangered species of trees and import them into this country from halfway around the world? That's the freedom you're concerned about?   Geez... talk about First World Problems.   If they're eradicating a species for the sake of building a musical instrument then, yeah, there's something wrong with that and it's got nothing to do with your imaginary god-given rights and freedoms. No, I'm talkin' American freedom, in general terms, is eroding.that's a fact..congress is outta control. Period...I like/and defend trees too.I wish none of them were cut down, to tell ya the truth..but that's not reality, unfortunately.....we all must have wood for tables,etc. and paper, that's a fact of life, like it or not. I wasn't aware that tables and paper were a basic human necessity

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 09:57 PM)

QUOTE (danielmclark @ Aug 27 2011, 06:33 PM) QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 07:15 PM) Our freedom's are being eroded more and more, everyday.. Your... freedom? What freedom? The freedom to harvest endangered species of trees and import them into this country from halfway around the world? That's the freedom you're concerned about?   Geez... talk about First World Problems.   If they're eradicating a species for the sake of building a musical instrument then, yeah, there's something wrong with that and it's got nothing to do with your imaginary god-given rights and freedoms. No, I'm talkin' American freedom, in general terms, is eroding.that's a fact..congress is outta control. Period...I like/and defend trees too.I wish none of them were cut down, to tell ya the truth..but that's not reality, unfortunately.....we all must have wood for tables,etc. and paper, that's a fact of life, like it or not. go2wrk, this isn't the politics forum. You can discuss guitars and illegal wood without bringing politics into it. Leave that stuff out of the musician's section, please.

[HowItIs]

QUOTE (USB Connector @ Aug 27 2011, 04:54 PM)

QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 27 2011, 07:48 PM) QUOTE (USB Connector @ Aug 27 2011, 03:03 PM) If Gibson is truly using endangered plants/trees to make their instruments then the government has every right to take action. In the article they state that they have all the proper import and export papers from India. Check the last sentence of your quote:   In an affidavit, authorities indicated they are weighing charges against the company or its executives for illegally importing wood under a U.S. law barring importation of endangered plants and woods. The company has sued to recover its property. Yes, I did. But I also read the quote from the Montana Gibson plant:   QUOTE Bozeman factory manager, Dennis O'Brien, says all the wood is legal. "Here is a plank of Indian Rosewood. It's been cut the rough dimension in India, which is a requirement of their export rules. It was approved by the export officials in India for export, it was accepted by U.S. Customs for import. We have all the documentation of these facts for every lot of wood we use here in Bozeman and everywhere in the company," says O'Brien. O'Brien also tells us the Department of Justice says their Bozeman plant received one of the lots the DOJ is investigating. However, he says he doesn't understand what crime they have committed. He says Gibson only uses Forest Stewardship Council certified wood and that the company has been a leader when it comes to the responsible use of wood.   Look, if they are importing wood illegally, then great, go ahead and investigate. My point is that if the DOJ should decide to follow this law to the letter, there could be trouble. One provision in the law requires documents to prove that vintage instruments are vintage by provenance - and if you can't show the paperwork, they could confiscate it. Hasn't happened yet but if some Border Guard decides to be pedantic, who knows....?

Edited August 28, 2011 by HowItIs

[go2wrk@95974]

QUOTE (1-0-0-1-0-0-1 @ Aug 27 2011, 11:30 PM)

QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 09:57 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ Aug 27 2011, 06:33 PM) QUOTE (go2wrk@95974 @ Aug 27 2011, 07:15 PM) Our freedom's are being eroded more and more, everyday.. Your... freedom? What freedom? The freedom to harvest endangered species of trees and import them into this country from halfway around the world? That's the freedom you're concerned about?   Geez... talk about First World Problems.   If they're eradicating a species for the sake of building a musical instrument then, yeah, there's something wrong with that and it's got nothing to do with your imaginary god-given rights and freedoms. No, I'm talkin' American freedom, in general terms, is eroding.that's a fact..congress is outta control. Period...I like/and defend trees too.I wish none of them were cut down, to tell ya the truth..but that's not reality, unfortunately.....we all must have wood for tables,etc. and paper, that's a fact of life, like it or not. go2wrk, this isn't the politics forum. You can discuss guitars and illegal wood without bringing politics into it. Leave that stuff out of the musician's section, please. Ok. Sorry bout that. Won't do that again.

[Cowtothesky]

I am confused why they are singling out Gibson. There are several guitar manufacturers that have used illegal woods in the past - PRS, Martin, etc... Why single out Gibson? This is the 2nd time they have been raided. Does the government pick and choose or was there some tip?

[USB Connector]

QUOTE (Cowtothesky @ Aug 28 2011, 03:01 PM)

I am confused why they are singling out Gibson. There are several guitar manufacturers that have used illegal woods in the past - PRS, Martin, etc... Why single out Gibson? This is the 2nd time they have been raided. Does the government pick and choose or was there some tip?

The government tends to pick fights they know they can win. For instance, why take on Wal-Mart for not declaring all of their revenue when they can afford the 50 best lawyers who will find loopholes to keep them tied up in courts for years when they government can simply hit a smaller business that doesn't cover their tracks immaculately and can't afford a lawyer good enough to win the case. They probably think Gibson is the latter.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

The first time they were "raided" it was due to a third party handler who had sold or tried to sell illegal wood from Madagascar to Gibson unbeknownst to Gibson. Coincidentally that raid occurred while the Gibson CEO was attending an event concerning wood and tree conservation.

 

Rosewood producing trees grow in select climates. You really don't see the real good stuff anymore because it is far to expensive to use on guitars. Most of the good vintage guitars have Brazilian rosewood. Now much of the rosewood used on guitars is from east India.

 

Rosewood from Madagascar is linked to organized crime taking trees from national parks so the regulation is on the exporting government's side, not American. Madagascar rosewood is fairly equivalent to Brazilian, but it is heavily regulated for export.

 

Martin probably uses more rosewood than any other manufacturer but Gibson has a higher profile.

 

The likelihood of someone traveling overseas with an undocumented 20's Martin is pretty f***ing slim. I was at a show this year and saw several pre 40's Martins for nothing less than $25,000. Such a piece going over seas would be shipped along with docs, not carried on like a "player" guitar would be.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

More info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_logging_in_Madagascar

[SignatureAurora75]

Maybe the government is pissed off at Gibson for charging too much damn money for guitars that in reality aren't worth the prices they charge. (sarcasm)

 

Sorry, little off topic. I guess I'll always be sore at Gibson:

 

Gibson = Harley Davidson

 

Both loud and mean

 

Both overblown prices. It's all about the name

 

Both always breaking down (could be avoided if more attention to detail were given)

 

Now, I would assume Gibson will be in trouble. I highly doubt the Feds would go after them unless they had damn good reason.

 

Sounds like it would be a good reason for AL to drop his endorsement deal. What I really would like to see is AL stick to endorsing PRS. It would be something awesome to see a PRS AL signature model.

[Don Quixote]

FWIW - PRS makes some pretty expensive guitars as well. A signature model from them would not be moderately priced.

 

That said - their acoustics look great. I've not had the privilege to find one to play yet.

[Cowtothesky]

I don't want to get too political, but there are a few reasons I think Gibson was singled out. They are not unionized and the CEO is a donor to one of the political parties in the U.S.

 

Here is a video of the CEO, Henry Juszkiewicz, responding to the raid:

 

 

 

I will be very disappointed if Al drops his endorsement with Gibson over this.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Cowtothesky

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

That is probably it. PRS guitars are similarly priced and more in many cases.

 

It is not that their guitars are over priced. The US dollar isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It has been purposefully devalued since the early 2000's. The value of anything is what the market will bear and morons spend too much money on good guitars and crappy ones too.

[invisibleairwaves]

I really doubt there was a political motive. as I'm pretty sure the political leaders have bigger fish to fry than directly ordering raids on guitar manufacturers. The bureaucrats who are actually in charge of dealing with things like this? Not so much. And this story seems like a bureaucratic mixup more than anything else.

[HowItIs]

NPR did a report on it yesterday:

 

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2011/08...ent?sc=fb&cc=fp

 

If Gibson is dealing in illegal wood, then fine. But if they are not, I have to wonder at what the cause could be. As always, follow the money.....

[Cowtothesky]

QUOTE (invisibleairwaves @ Aug 31 2011, 06:22 PM)

I really doubt there was a political motive. as I'm pretty sure the political leaders have bigger fish to fry than directly ordering raids on guitar manufacturers. The bureaucrats who are actually in charge of dealing with things like this? Not so much. And this story seems like a bureaucratic mixup more than anything else.

I don't think it is a mixup. But, I'm not convinced that it is political either. Most guitar manufacturers use the same rare woods. The question is how it was obtained. Maybe it is me, but couldn't they have asked for documentation from Gibson rather than just storming in and confiscating stuff?

[RUSHian62]

THe rose wood they use on the fret boards comes from India. They have gotten this wood for many decades (like all other guitar companies who make guitars). The Gov't trying to shut down another American business and drive them overseas. I like Gibson guitars always have. I wonder if this effects E[iphones which are made overseas

[HowItIs]

An update from a member of LMI in the know:

 

QUOTE

First, I am not going to defend Gibson's CEO. Making this into a case of political martyrdom is not doing anyone any good. According to to people in the know, the object of the first raid on Gibson (in 2009) was in response to suspicion a shipment of malagasy ebony, which comes from Madagascar. There are about 150 species of ebony in the world (persimmon is actually a kind of ebony) but only about 20 of those species are useful for building musical instruments. The particular kind from Madagascar is particularly dense, and very uniformly black. This makes it very much prized for the fingerboards of stringed instruments. I have been to Madagascar. Once, it was mostly covered with incredible rain forests. Since human habitation began, about 500 AD or so, these have been shrinking steadily, until now there is almost nothing left. It's shocking and heartbreaking to see mile after mile of red-dirt scrubland, with nothing growing on it except eucalyptus and sisal. Once-forested slopes are now cut with red gashes where landslides have devastated them. All of the once-clear rivers now look like potters' slip, they are so choked with the poor red clay. People eke out subsistence on skinny cows and dry rice cultivation. Madagascar was a corrupt dictatorship for decades. Their longtime strong-man was overthrown in 2002, and since then the country has not had a stable government. There is a massive international conservationist presence in the country, but there is little their either they or the government can do to stop illegal logging. But not all logging is prohibited in Madagascar. It is perfectly legal, under U.S. law to import wood from Madagascar, as long as it wasn't illegally cut under Madagascar law. This rule falls under the Lacey Act, which is at the heart of the matter. More on that in a moment. Is it ethical to use wood from Madagascar? I don't think so, but that's my personal choice. Certainly, if we guitar makers were all to stop using any Madagascar woods for building, this would not have any impact on the deforestation. Illegal logging in Madagascar is carried out by local people whose children are starving. If they can get 1,000 for a log, which will end up in high-end guitars, they'll take it. However, if no one will buy that log for $1000 for guitars, they will happily sell the same log to someone else for $100. Failing that, they'll just make charcoal out of it. Yep, imagine that. $100 a board foot ebony being turned into charcoal. It happens. THe only real solution is to get local people to stop cutting down their own forests and give them some other ways to make money. Tourism helps (I know, I've been there) but it's not a cure-all. You may ask, why not just substitute? Some makers do. A few kinds of wood are suitable for guitar making, but not very many. Fingerboards in particular need to be made from very dense, heavy wood or they just sound like crap. But Gibson's crusade is about the Lacey Act (pdf here for the details). In a nutshell, it holds manufacturers liable if any of the materials in their products were illegally obtained. Sounds great on the surface, and I certainly agree with the spirit of it, but it's damned near impossible to enforce, and impossible to comply with. For example, if I buy a piece of wood from LMI and make a guitar with it, and want to export it, I need to somehow prove that the piece of wood was legally obtained. I can point back to LMI, but LMI may not be able to prove it either. The legality of my product is only as good as the legality of every other person in the chain-- and sometimes that's a very long chain. It's impossible for me to verify every link in that chain-- no one can-- and yet I am legally on the hook for it. In this sense, Gibson has a point. But, we should point out, other guitar makers (Martin, for example) manage to navigate the Lacey Act well enough, and have people on the ground in their procurement process to ensure they are in the clear. In this first case in 2009, it seems like Gibson just got caught in blatant violation of the act, with the wood equivalent of banned ivory. In this new case, it's a different story. In this luthier's forum thread, it's explained (several pages in) that the new raid is over East Indian Rosewood fingerboards. Unlike malagasy ebony, East Indian Rosewood is not in short supply. It's grown on tea plantations to provide shade for the tea plants. The Indian government has a law prohibiting the export of raw rosewood. Not because it's rare, but because the Indian government wants to create sawmill jobs. So the stipulation is that only "finished" wood products may be exported, not just lumber. However, the Indian government considers a rosewood fingerboard blank, which is really just a piece of wood about 24" x 3" x 5/16", to be a "finished" product for legal purposes. The trouble with Gibson started when someone at Luthiers Mercantile International filled out the paperword wrong-- a simple clerical error. The inspectors, not being luthiers, saw a stack of "raw" wood boards, rather than "fingerboard blanks." So now here we go again. In this case the Lacey Act is being used to enforce India's industrial protectionism, rather than environmental laws. The wood in question this time isn't even illegal under the Lacey Act, it's just suspected of being illegal because someone made a paperwork mistake. There are some allegations that the government trumped up this latest raid to just poke around for more evidence to use in their first action two years ago. Which is the sort of thing I'd do if I were them. I don't have a lot of sympathy for Gibson, but the problem they face is a very real one. Bottom line here: Gibson's CEO is a wingnut jackass, but the real situation with the Lacey Act is pretty complicated, and the law itself needs some serious reform to achieve its laudable aims while allowing environmentally conscious businesspeople to keep operating.

 

 

So it wasn't due to anything more than an improperly filled-out paperwork. Man.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2011 by HowItIs