Anthemic Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleMoon Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troutman Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 One thing that would've made this article better is none other than an appearance of the Massive Pendulous Scrotum!!!! Here you go, just for you: But seriously, how do those animals get around with that thing hanging in the way?! One makes the necessary, um, adjustments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toymaker Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x1yyz Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately. :goodone: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately.Great post toymaker. I don't even know where to begin. I'll say this though: Peart's traveled so much it's really odd that he'd even comment on that "Ingrish". I wonder what he'd think at a typical Blaze family gathering where he'd hear Filipino, Thai, Hong Kong, and deep American south accents. The only non-discernible (American) accents heard would be from my bros & I and ONE longtime family friend...and we're usually imitating some tv or movie character's voice. I can imagine MommaBlaze addressing Peart in her usual friendly and commanding way [insert heavy Filipino accent and spelling at own risk], "Neil, you must be tired from riding your motorcycle. And why are you sitting all the way over there in the corner by yourself?! You don't have to be shy! And go help yourself to some more food!" ;) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleMoon Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately.Great post toymaker. I don't even know where to begin. I'll say this though: Peart's traveled so much it's really odd that he'd even comment on that "Ingrish". I wonder what he'd think at a typical Blaze family gathering where he'd hear Filipino, Thai, Hong Kong, and deep American south accents. The only non-discernible (American) accents heard would be from my bros & I and ONE longtime family friend...and we're usually imitating some tv or movie character's voice. I can imagine MommaBlaze addressing Peart in her usual friendly and commanding way [insert heavy Filipino accent and spelling at own risk], "Neil, you must be tired from riding your motorcycle. And why are you sitting all the way over there in the corner by yourself?! You don't have to be shy! And go help yourself to some more food!" ;) I think people have too much time on their hands if they're worried about Neil commenting on this guys accent. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately.Great post toymaker. I don't even know where to begin. I'll say this though: Peart's traveled so much it's really odd that he'd even comment on that "Ingrish". I wonder what he'd think at a typical Blaze family gathering where he'd hear Filipino, Thai, Hong Kong, and deep American south accents. The only non-discernible (American) accents heard would be from my bros & I and ONE longtime family friend...and we're usually imitating some tv or movie character's voice. I can imagine MommaBlaze addressing Peart in her usual friendly and commanding way [insert heavy Filipino accent and spelling at own risk], "Neil, you must be tired from riding your motorcycle. And why are you sitting all the way over there in the corner by yourself?! You don't have to be shy! And go help yourself to some more food!" ;) I think people have too much time on their hands if they're worried about Neil commenting on this guys accent. No, not "worried". He's traveled extensively, has met a wide range of people internationally, probably has a million things going on his head, but THAT was what he chose to write about? Oh and "too much time"...not really. Just having breakfast or commuting on the train when I post on here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingAllTheTime Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately.Great post toymaker. I don't even know where to begin. I'll say this though: Peart's traveled so much it's really odd that he'd even comment on that "Ingrish". I wonder what he'd think at a typical Blaze family gathering where he'd hear Filipino, Thai, Hong Kong, and deep American south accents. The only non-discernible (American) accents heard would be from my bros & I and ONE longtime family friend...and we're usually imitating some tv or movie character's voice. I can imagine MommaBlaze addressing Peart in her usual friendly and commanding way [insert heavy Filipino accent and spelling at own risk], "Neil, you must be tired from riding your motorcycle. And why are you sitting all the way over there in the corner by yourself?! You don't have to be shy! And go help yourself to some more food!" ;) I found the inclusion of "Ingrish" perplexing. Perhaps he was just trying to point out there was a bit of a language barrier to overcome, but that point is clearly made if you do not include that one comment. That said, do I think it was fundamentally racist? No. Do I think it was ill advised? Yes. Do I think it was in poor taste? Of course. All *that* said, really, it is not as if he is running for President and calling basically every Mexican entering the country a murderer or rapist. *That* kind of language is far more worrisome than an ill advised, off color (pardon the pun) comment from a retired rock star who included this on a blog. Edited January 26, 2016 by WorkingAllTheTime 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Posted January 26, 2016 Share Posted January 26, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately. All great points Toymaker, with the exception that you are an educator, and part of your job would be to acknowledge, point out and correct any language issues .. Neil, in the course of being on vacation, writes a blog and feels compelled to add this completely unnecessary aspect of a chance meeting with another traveler .. The future "Mrs Lucas" ( fingers crossed ) was born in Changchun, China, and the thought of a person who has no ability to speak Chinese and mocking her for subtle mispronunciations when she speaks English really pisses me off .. For those who have no problems with ridicule on social media sites, you'll probably get a kick outta this - you either get it, or you don't 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyBlaze Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately. All great points Toymaker, with the exception that you are an educator, and part of your job would be to acknowledge, point out and correct any language issues .. Neil, in the course of being on vacation, writes a blog and feels compelled to add this completely unnecessary aspect of a chance meeting with another traveler .. The future "Mrs Lucas" ( fingers crossed ) was born in Changchun, China, and the thought of a person who has no ability to speak Chinese and mocking her for subtle mispronunciations when she speaks English really pisses me off .. For those who have no problems with ridicule on social media sites, you'll probably get a kick outta this - you either get it, or you don't Yeah I didn't laugh at that garbage (the vid) but I know many that would. Somehow it makes it even worse coming from her. Edited January 27, 2016 by JohnnyBlaze 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toymaker Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately.Great post toymaker. I don't even know where to begin. I'll say this though: Peart's traveled so much it's really odd that he'd even comment on that "Ingrish". I wonder what he'd think at a typical Blaze family gathering where he'd hear Filipino, Thai, Hong Kong, and deep American south accents. The only non-discernible (American) accents heard would be from my bros & I and ONE longtime family friend...and we're usually imitating some tv or movie character's voice. I can imagine MommaBlaze addressing Peart in her usual friendly and commanding way [insert heavy Filipino accent and spelling at own risk], "Neil, you must be tired from riding your motorcycle. And why are you sitting all the way over there in the corner by yourself?! You don't have to be shy! And go help yourself to some more food!" ;) I found the inclusion of "Ingrish" perplexing. Perhaps he was just trying to point out there was a bit of a language barrier to overcome, but that point is clearly made if you do not include that one comment. That said, do I think it was fundamentally racist? No. Do I think it was ill advised? Yes. Do I think it was in poor taste? Of course. All *that* said, really, it is not as if he is running for President and calling basically every Mexican entering the country a murderer or rapist. *That* kind of language is far more worrisome than an ill advised, off color (pardon the pun) comment from a retired rock star who included this on a blog. It's just become a dumbass cliche (that is, pointing out a speaker's mixing up the consonants), which is another reason it's weird that he used it without some kind of accompanying commentary. Remember the scene in A Christmas Story where the family is in the Chinese restaurant, and the staff are singing "fa ra ra ra ra" in Deck the Halls? That scene makes a lot of people squirm, I think, because it's perceived as racist. But I see (and hear) this kind of . . . imitation? . . everywhere. There are comedians who mercilessly make fun of people's speech styles - whether it's a lisp or other speech impediment (or do we say "speech differences" now?). Gilda Radner did it with Barbara Walters (or "Bahbwa Wa-Wa"); Eddie Murphy did his "Buckwheat sings" sketch; people from the South are parodied for their accent; Canadians are parodied (en masse in both cases, which is absurd) for their accent . . . . I think that maybe it's so pervasive that it's hard to make a case for it being a racist inclination. It's insensitive, maybe, but it's . . . an equal opportunity offense? Lucas, I think your use of the word "mocked" is important. It suggests, maybe, that the imitation is coming from a darker place, maybe a place of bigotry. Edited January 27, 2016 by toymaker 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled The mighty whitey speaks So gracious of you to step down from your pedestal and give the illiterate a picture . .Yeah, that's pretty much what i was alluding to in my earlier post...just not as flavorful as you put it here. ;) All Superconductor jokes aside, after reading Neil's latest entry, this is the first time I have ever been ashamed to say that I am a Rush fan . . Seriously? Poor you. Not "poor Lucas" at all as I am very proud of myself Just embarrassed by the elitist, racist comment by Neil all this proves is that even when neil is being nice, he's still kind of a dick Why is that elitist or racist? Commenting on someone's accent is racist? It's an interesting question, because just about everyone does it. Is imitating an accent racist? Are the Simpson's voice actors racist? If I as an educator report that certain students mix up V and W sounds, am I doing it to belittle those students? I would say no, because it's just a fact that has to do with lack of facility with articulating certain sounds, which happens when you are learning a language. I never got pissed at my French teacher for telling me that I still wasn't pronouncing "vu" correctly. I'm sure that my lack of facility with pronouncing certain sounds in other languages is also subject to scrutiny and perhaps comment. When I try to pronounce my Asian students' names, they often giggle at me. I've learned a lot about how to pronounce names like "He" and "Qi" but I'm still not quite there yet. I certainly don't mind if people point it out or try to help me articulate the sound. I talk to students about the issue of accented speech, and my usual thing is to say "don't worry about it: everybody has an accent, even if they think they don't" In some extreme cases, the listener may not understand. I do question why Peart even mentions it. If it was stated in the context of "we had a bit of trouble understanding each other," that would be one thing. If it's done for a cheap laugh, then it seems a bit pointless, I suppose. Is it insensitive? Peart strikes me as someone who is endlessly curious about cultures and traditions, and I've never really heard him write about those things with anything but respect. However, a lot of our humor comes from caricature - look at Robin Williams' bit on Scottish golfers, or Russell Peters on the accented speech of Asians. I think a lot of that stuff is funny, but I don't really care for it when it is then associated with stereotypes. The George Lucas' alien voices controversy has much to do with the association of voices that "sound like" Japanese speakers or Yiddish speakers with racist stereotypes. This thing that Neil wrote just seems out of place - he could have made it purposeful, but it just seems carelessly tossed in. Too bad. At the end of the day, I prefer to think his thoughtful lyrics and other writings come from a good place. He suffers occasionally from speaking-before-thinking-things-through. So do I, unfortunately.Great post toymaker. I don't even know where to begin. I'll say this though: Peart's traveled so much it's really odd that he'd even comment on that "Ingrish". I wonder what he'd think at a typical Blaze family gathering where he'd hear Filipino, Thai, Hong Kong, and deep American south accents. The only non-discernible (American) accents heard would be from my bros & I and ONE longtime family friend...and we're usually imitating some tv or movie character's voice. I can imagine MommaBlaze addressing Peart in her usual friendly and commanding way [insert heavy Filipino accent and spelling at own risk], "Neil, you must be tired from riding your motorcycle. And why are you sitting all the way over there in the corner by yourself?! You don't have to be shy! And go help yourself to some more food!" ;) I found the inclusion of "Ingrish" perplexing. Perhaps he was just trying to point out there was a bit of a language barrier to overcome, but that point is clearly made if you do not include that one comment. That said, do I think it was fundamentally racist? No. Do I think it was ill advised? Yes. Do I think it was in poor taste? Of course. All *that* said, really, it is not as if he is running for President and calling basically every Mexican entering the country a murderer or rapist. *That* kind of language is far more worrisome than an ill advised, off color (pardon the pun) comment from a retired rock star who included this on a blog. It's just become a dumbass cliche (that is, pointing out a speaker's mixing up the consonants), which is another reason it's weird that he used it without some kind of accompanying commentary. Remember the scene in A Christmas Story where the family is in the Chinese restaurant, and the staff are singing "fa ra ra ra ra" in Deck the Halls? That scene makes a lot of people squirm, I think, because it's perceived as racist. But I see (and hear) this kind of . . . imitation? . . everywhere. There are comedians who mercilessly make fun of people's speech styles - whether it's a lisp or other speech impediment (or do we say "speech differences" now?). Gilda Radner did it with Barbara Walters (or "Bahbwa Wa-Wa"); Eddie Murphy did his "Buckwheat sings" sketch; people from the South are parodied for their accent; Canadians are parodied (en masse in both cases, which is absurd) for their accent . . . . I think that maybe it's so pervasive that it's hard to make a case for it being a racist inclination. It's insensitive, maybe, but it's . . . an equal opportunity offense? Lucas, I think your use of the word "mocked" is important. It suggests, maybe, that the imitation is coming from a darker place, maybe a place of bigotry. The use of stereotypes in comedy is very different than pointing out a person's inability to master a second language after 3 months .. I love Family Guy, and some of the most outrageous skits are the funniest However, with Neil, it was completely different ... His addition of "he struggled" was so damn elitist Despite telling us he had studied English (yes, he pronounced it “Ingrish”) at a school in Japan for three months, he struggled What is the point ? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toymaker Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 All great points Toymaker, with the exception that you are an educator, and part of your job would be to acknowledge, point out and correct any language issues .. Neil, in the course of being on vacation, writes a blog and feels compelled to add this completely unnecessary aspect of a chance meeting with another traveler .. The future "Mrs Lucas" ( fingers crossed ) was born in Changchun, China, and the thought of a person who has no ability to speak Chinese and mocking her for subtle mispronunciations when she speaks English really pisses me off .. It's interesting that we educators have to be quite careful now regarding how we talk about these language issues. "Standard English" is, after all, just one of many dialects and one that can be seen to be exclusionary. In other words, an enlightened culture will embrace different "Englishes" (yes, the translingualists do pluralize the word) and what they call "accented writing" (or what folks used to call "errors"). The problem is, not everyone is so enlightened, and also my students generally want to be taught "the right way" to say and write things. If I tell them that they should not worry about "the right way" on those ideological grounds, they'll tell me that they're not doing well in interviews because the interviewer "can't understand them" (for example). Is that their fault for not working harder at English, or is it the interviewer's fault for not making more of an effort? I know that if I was in another country and trying to learn the language, I too would want to learn "the right way" to speak it. It just seems proper and respectful. I also know that English isn't the only language with loads of variations or dialects. Lucas, does your (fingers crossed) betrothed ever talk about the issue? Does she ask you to let her know when she's mispronouncing things? Just curious. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toymaker Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Yeah, if Neil is surprised that the guy is struggling after three whole months of English study . . . sheesh. The general perception seems to be that it takes something like 5-7 years to become a "natural-sounding" speaker of a language, and that's assuming some pretty serious immersion. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 All great points Toymaker, with the exception that you are an educator, and part of your job would be to acknowledge, point out and correct any language issues .. Neil, in the course of being on vacation, writes a blog and feels compelled to add this completely unnecessary aspect of a chance meeting with another traveler .. The future "Mrs Lucas" ( fingers crossed ) was born in Changchun, China, and the thought of a person who has no ability to speak Chinese and mocking her for subtle mispronunciations when she speaks English really pisses me off .. It's interesting that we educators have to be quite careful now regarding how we talk about these language issues. "Standard English" is, after all, just one of many dialects and one that can be seen to be exclusionary. In other words, an enlightened culture will embrace different "Englishes" (yes, the translingualists do pluralize the word) and what they call "accented writing" (or what folks used to call "errors"). The problem is, not everyone is so enlightened, and also my students generally want to be taught "the right way" to say and write things. If I tell them that they should not worry about "the right way" on those ideological grounds, they'll tell me that they're not doing well in interviews because the interviewer "can't understand them" (for example). Is that their fault for not working harder at English, or is it the interviewer's fault for not making more of an effort? I know that if I was in another country and trying to learn the language, I too would want to learn "the right way" to speak it. It just seems proper and respectful. I also know that English isn't the only language with loads of variations or dialects. Lucas, does your (fingers crossed) betrothed ever talk about the issue? Does she ask you to let her know when she's mispronouncing things? Just curious. Yes, Toymaker, you nailed it Mrs L will ask, for example, which is correct: "get to the office" or "arrive at the office" ( along with the dozen or so variations, such as "arrived to the office" or "arrive at the office" ) I am sadly lagging in my ability to speak Chinese 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toymaker Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 All great points Toymaker, with the exception that you are an educator, and part of your job would be to acknowledge, point out and correct any language issues .. Neil, in the course of being on vacation, writes a blog and feels compelled to add this completely unnecessary aspect of a chance meeting with another traveler .. The future "Mrs Lucas" ( fingers crossed ) was born in Changchun, China, and the thought of a person who has no ability to speak Chinese and mocking her for subtle mispronunciations when she speaks English really pisses me off .. It's interesting that we educators have to be quite careful now regarding how we talk about these language issues. "Standard English" is, after all, just one of many dialects and one that can be seen to be exclusionary. In other words, an enlightened culture will embrace different "Englishes" (yes, the translingualists do pluralize the word) and what they call "accented writing" (or what folks used to call "errors"). The problem is, not everyone is so enlightened, and also my students generally want to be taught "the right way" to say and write things. If I tell them that they should not worry about "the right way" on those ideological grounds, they'll tell me that they're not doing well in interviews because the interviewer "can't understand them" (for example). Is that their fault for not working harder at English, or is it the interviewer's fault for not making more of an effort? I know that if I was in another country and trying to learn the language, I too would want to learn "the right way" to speak it. It just seems proper and respectful. I also know that English isn't the only language with loads of variations or dialects. Lucas, does your (fingers crossed) betrothed ever talk about the issue? Does she ask you to let her know when she's mispronouncing things? Just curious. Yes, Toymaker, you nailed it Mrs L will ask, for example, which is correct: "get to the office" or "arrive at the office" ( along with the dozen or so variations, such as "arrived to the office" or "arrive at the office" ) I am sadly lagging in my ability to speak Chinese The "idiomatic" dimension of English is insane! Not just all of our weird-ass figurative expressions ("the cat's out of the bag"), but also the phrasal verbs and multiple collocations ("afraid of" vs. "afraid for," "apply to" vs. "apply for," as well as the one's you've pointed out). We've got words that mean different things depending on where you lay the stress (conduct, record) or how you articulate the ending (excuse). Quite a mess. But then, every language is equally complex. If you decide to learn Mandarin (or is it Cantonese?), you'll have your work cut out for you. There's a tonal dimension, too. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingAllTheTime Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) @ Lucas and @ Toymaker.... I love this exchange. Love it. Really, I do. I will hold that I do not think Neil was being intentionally racist. I think, rather, he was being insensitive and foolish. I also think that is a basic function of the human condition. I have an employee who speaks six languages beautifully. English is not necessarily the best of his six. He is actually quite fluent in English in that he functions well, but the diversity of his language background makes it so that he is often confused by basic sentence structure in English (because it actually often makes no sense when compared to other languages) and pronunciation. Initially, a number of other employees poked a little fun at him because of it, but I pushed back on their thinking. Yes, I am the boss, so they take my opinion and thinking with a higher level of influence, but I shared some of my own history as an educator and my understanding of language as mode for creating some common understanding. As much as I wanted to call them a bunch of uneducated hillbillies, I decided I would use it as a teaching moment and I was pleasantly surprised on how things turned. In some ways, I subtly called out the average employees' foolishness, but in other ways I encouraged them to A) help the other employee learn a little more about the absurdity of English (because it often is absurd) and B) understand why he structures some sentences in certain ways and why he pronounces some words in some ways. What has emerged is something I am proud of. The employee can now openly question how to say a word or structure a thought and the other employees both help him and seek to understand what he is trying to say. For the most part, they no longer make fun of him, but instead take ownership in his improving English. Just the other day, in fact, one of my most hardened hillbilly types told me he really enjoys talking to the employee and that he likes his accents and thinks he says some basic words in a way that is more pleasing than common English (!). I asked him, very bluntly, if he learned anything from the other employee and he said, "Yeah, he speaks six languages. I speak one. [He] is a whole lot smarter than we gave him credit." Edited January 27, 2016 by WorkingAllTheTime 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x1yyz Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 It's just become a dumbass cliche (that is, pointing out a speaker's mixing up the consonants), which is another reason it's weird that he used it without some kind of accompanying commentary. Remember the scene in A Christmas Story where the family is in the Chinese restaurant, and the staff are singing "fa ra ra ra ra" in Deck the Halls? That scene makes a lot of people squirm, I think, because it's perceived as racist. But I see (and hear) this kind of . . . imitation? . . everywhere. There are comedians who mercilessly make fun of people's speech styles - whether it's a lisp or other speech impediment (or do we say "speech differences" now?). Gilda Radner did it with Barbara Walters (or "Bahbwa Wa-Wa"); Eddie Murphy did his "Buckwheat sings" sketch; people from the South are parodied for their accent; Canadians are parodied (en masse in both cases, which is absurd) for their accent . . . . I think that maybe it's so pervasive that it's hard to make a case for it being a racist inclination. It's insensitive, maybe, but it's . . . an equal opportunity offense? Lucas, I think your use of the word "mocked" is important. It suggests, maybe, that the imitation is coming from a darker place, maybe a place of bigotry. Another great post. I do realize there is a fine line between what is acceptable comedy and what is making fun of another person's stereotype/accent/whatever, and I myself don't know exactly where that is. My personal rule is, in general, to only make fun of accents/stereotypes that include my own, because it's okay for me to make fun of myself. Mockery, however, has crossed the line and gone into the territory of bigotry and ridicule. Mockery is never good. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x1yyz Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 @ Lucas and @ Toymaker.... I love this exchange. Love it. Really, I do. I will hold that I do not think Neil was being intentionally racist. I think, rather, he was being insensitive and foolish. I also think that is a basic function of the human condition. I have an employee who speaks six languages beautifully. English is not necessarily the best of his six. He is actually quite fluent in English in that he functions well, but the diversity of his language background makes it so that he is often confused by basic sentence structure in English (because it actually often makes no sense when compared to other languages) and pronunciation. Initially, a number of other employees poked a little fun at him because of it, but I pushed back on their thinking. Yes, I am the boss, so they take my opinion and thinking with a higher level of influence, but I shared some of my own history as an educator and my understanding of language as mode for creating some common understanding. As much as I wanted to call them a bunch of uneducated hillbillies, I decided I would use it as a teaching moment and I was pleasantly surprised on how things turned. In some ways, I subtly called out the average employees' foolishness, but in other ways I encouraged them to A) help the other employee learn a little more about the absurdity of English (because it often is absurd) and B) understand why he structures some sentences in certain ways and why he pronounces some words in some ways. What has emerged is something I am proud of. The employee can now openly question how to say a word or structure a thought and the other employees both help him and seek to understand what he is trying to say. For the most part, they no longer make fun of him, but instead take ownership in his improving English. Just the other day, in fact, one of my most hardened hillbilly types told me he really enjoys talking to the employee and that he likes his accents and thinks he says some basic words in a way that is more pleasing than common English (!). I asked him, very bluntly, if he learned anything from the other employee and he said, "Yeah, he speaks six languages. I speak one. [He] is a whole lot smarter than we gave him credit." :goodone: And a good outcome, to boot! (Personally, I find it quite charming when people speak slightly broken English.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingAllTheTime Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 @ Lucas and @ Toymaker.... I love this exchange. Love it. Really, I do. I will hold that I do not think Neil was being intentionally racist. I think, rather, he was being insensitive and foolish. I also think that is a basic function of the human condition. I have an employee who speaks six languages beautifully. English is not necessarily the best of his six. He is actually quite fluent in English in that he functions well, but the diversity of his language background makes it so that he is often confused by basic sentence structure in English (because it actually often makes no sense when compared to other languages) and pronunciation. Initially, a number of other employees poked a little fun at him because of it, but I pushed back on their thinking. Yes, I am the boss, so they take my opinion and thinking with a higher level of influence, but I shared some of my own history as an educator and my understanding of language as mode for creating some common understanding. As much as I wanted to call them a bunch of uneducated hillbillies, I decided I would use it as a teaching moment and I was pleasantly surprised on how things turned. In some ways, I subtly called out the average employees' foolishness, but in other ways I encouraged them to A) help the other employee learn a little more about the absurdity of English (because it often is absurd) and B) understand why he structures some sentences in certain ways and why he pronounces some words in some ways. What has emerged is something I am proud of. The employee can now openly question how to say a word or structure a thought and the other employees both help him and seek to understand what he is trying to say. For the most part, they no longer make fun of him, but instead take ownership in his improving English. Just the other day, in fact, one of my most hardened hillbilly types told me he really enjoys talking to the employee and that he likes his accents and thinks he says some basic words in a way that is more pleasing than common English (!). I asked him, very bluntly, if he learned anything from the other employee and he said, "Yeah, he speaks six languages. I speak one. [He] is a whole lot smarter than we gave him credit." :goodone: And a good outcome, to boot! (Personally, I find it quite charming when people speak slightly broken English.) The same hillbilly once heard me have an exchange with the employee in question. He speaks French beautifully. I studied French for many years. I lost a lot of my studies, but I can generally read it and I get the basic point of what is being said when I hear it (which is also the case for Spanish as they languages are quite similar, although I sometimes struggle with vocabulary when I hear Spanish). Anyway, the employee and I developed a relationship in which, when he becomes most confused by English, he speaks to me in French and I respond in English. It works pretty well and only every now and then we need some translation software. A while back the hillbilly heard one of these exchanges and asked me what language the employee was speaking. I told him French. He asked "You speak French?" I said, "No. I used to, but I still understand French. There's a big difference there, but it lets us communicate more clearly" I could see the wheels spinning in his head and I think that was the moment of clarity for him. PS I probably should not use the term "hillbilly" to describe this other employee. He is actually very intelligent. If anything, he is under educated and that explains the way he has viewed the world up until this point. Capacity and formal learning are two completely different things. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Partialgrace Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Oh, lucky traveler! Most of Japanese don't know who Rush is, I think. At least as far as I know, there's no one in person who know.And yes speaking English requires hardest effort for us. accent, diction, intonation, pronunciation and all. I can read. I can hear and write a little bit. But I speak Ingrish maybe,(and poorly) And I'm surprised Micheal can speak Japanese. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toymaker Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 @ Lucas and @ Toymaker.... I love this exchange. Love it. Really, I do. I will hold that I do not think Neil was being intentionally racist. I think, rather, he was being insensitive and foolish. I also think that is a basic function of the human condition. I have an employee who speaks six languages beautifully. English is not necessarily the best of his six. He is actually quite fluent in English in that he functions well, but the diversity of his language background makes it so that he is often confused by basic sentence structure in English (because it actually often makes no sense when compared to other languages) and pronunciation. Initially, a number of other employees poked a little fun at him because of it, but I pushed back on their thinking. Yes, I am the boss, so they take my opinion and thinking with a higher level of influence, but I shared some of my own history as an educator and my understanding of language as mode for creating some common understanding. As much as I wanted to call them a bunch of uneducated hillbillies, I decided I would use it as a teaching moment and I was pleasantly surprised on how things turned. In some ways, I subtly called out the average employees' foolishness, but in other ways I encouraged them to A) help the other employee learn a little more about the absurdity of English (because it often is absurd) and B) understand why he structures some sentences in certain ways and why he pronounces some words in some ways. What has emerged is something I am proud of. The employee can now openly question how to say a word or structure a thought and the other employees both help him and seek to understand what he is trying to say. For the most part, they no longer make fun of him, but instead take ownership in his improving English. Just the other day, in fact, one of my most hardened hillbilly types told me he really enjoys talking to the employee and that he likes his accents and thinks he says some basic words in a way that is more pleasing than common English (!). I asked him, very bluntly, if he learned anything from the other employee and he said, "Yeah, he speaks six languages. I speak one. [He] is a whole lot smarter than we gave him credit." I almost wrote something quite similar to your last bit. I tell my students that no matter how others might perceive their English, what they have achieved is still amazing. They're in another country, getting a degree in another language. Could I go to Hong Kong University and do the same? Man, I don't know . . . I too like the sound of accented English. I think often it pulls the music out of the language. In some ways, I think people are fascinated by accents and even a bit envious of them. Our imitation is not always meant discourteously or as parody. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 I think part of this also taps into my intolerance for hypocrisy, as Neil, all through out his writing, has spoke of the evils of intolerance and victimization .. I suppose this is very simple - put yourself in Neil's place, but simply as yourself : You are on vacation with a friend, and you strike up a conversation with a eager and friendly traveler - Would you write on your social media site that, of all things, despite 3 whole months of English lessons, he struggled with his "Ingrish" ?? You'd come across sounding like a creep Despite 50 years of drumming, he still struggles with his Buddy Rich chops Unfair, right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now