RUSH - Religion, Humanism, And When They Became Bland

[djflex]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

[djflex]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

I should add i mean no disrespect to the topic or thread...

[Narps]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

I should add i mean no disrespect to the topic or thread...

Me either. It's just a bit above my pay grade... :)

[djflex]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

I should add i mean no disrespect to the topic or thread...

Me either. It's just a bit above my pay grade... :)

 

Im usually pretty happy if i just spell everything correctly in my posts.....

 

:)

[Narps]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

I should add i mean no disrespect to the topic or thread...

Me either. It's just a bit above my pay grade... :)

 

Im usually pretty happy if i just spell everything correctly in my posts.....

 

:)

:laughing guy: Me too. I do my best with the spelling and gramer... :)

[Lucas]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

And like Narps, you are also one of my favorite posters here DJ

 

I am very thankful for this forum - the discussion here is great, and it has gotten me thru a difficult time in life .... Life can present a lot of difficult situations, and speaking for myself, I have been humbled by life, and feel awfully vulnerable sometimes ..

 

I suppose that's when I start to look into why some music, movies, literature, etc stike a chord in me, and some don't

Edited September 25, 2015 by Lucas

[Narps]

Unfortunate but these are the kinds of "deep" discussions I love to read but don't really have what it takes to contribute. Carry on ladies and gents...

 

I kinda feel the same way. I listen to the music and just like it.

 

I guess I'm just a simple person who likes a complex band.

 

And like Narps, you are also one of my favorite posters here DJ

 

I am very thankful for this forum - the discussion here is great, and it has gotten me thru a difficult time in life .... Life can present a lot of difficult situations, and speaking for myself, I have been humbled by life, and feel awfully vulnerable sometimes ..

 

I suppose that's when I start to look into why some music, movies, literature, etc stike a chord in me, and some don't

I just wish I had your depth if that makes any sense? You and Toymaker really make me think and are always interesting reads when you guys really get into it. I was just never really that thoughtful for lack of a better word when listening to and digesting music to break it down like you guys do. If I were a musician or even a poet I am guessing things would be different but I am certainly neither of those things... :) :cheers: brother

[Ancient Ways]

Isn't Jacobs ladder inspired by the atmospheric phenomenon, not the biblical story?

In my lyrics I've drawn a lot of references from The Bible, because it's a very colorful source of images. And I grew up, not religious, but in a religious background, going to Sunday school and taking religious education in school and so on. So, all these things do suggest themselves as metaphors and "Jacob's Ladder" is a lovely phrase, those two words itself. And that's in fact what we started with, we looked at the song as being a 'cinemative' kind of exercise and before any lyrics were written we talked about the image of "Jacob's Ladder", of a cloudy sky coming on and then all of a sudden these beams of light, which, everybody sees and I have always found very inspiring sort of thing. We had that experience in common. So we created the music just out of that vision and that image and wrote the whole song around that. And then in retrospect I went back and wrote a couple of verses of lyrics just to depict the image a little more acute and also to bring the vocals in as an instrumental sound. -Neil Peart, 1980

 

Idk, I re-read the lyrics and I'm not convinced. Maybe the last little section can be stretched to fit that concept but it's still a stretch IMO. He also wrote the section concerning Absalom and then found out its original reference. IMO, if and when Neil uses references originally found in the bible, he usually first found the reference in a secular work.

[toymaker]

"Visually" interesting lyrics (for me):

 

Red Sector A, Body Electric

Manhattan Project, Middletown Dreams

Tai Shan (okay...bad example, but it seems to be the only one from that album)

Chain Lightning, War Paint (? slim pickin's here)

Double Agent

Test For Echo

Some of the stuff on Vapor Trails, but I wonder if it's mostly because I can't help associating it with Peart's trajectory at that time.

Most of Clockwork Angels, for obvious reasons

 

This was more difficult than I thought it would be. I was looking for songs that had either a bit of narrative or physical description or both. So for me there do seem to be quite a few albums that, lyrically, just comment on the state of things.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

 

Maybe, but he did his fair share of social commentary back when he could still write engaging lyrics, so I think there's more to the story.

 

I was on my phone so I wasn't able to write out the detailed answer I really wanted to make. I think when he dropped the poet side of him and went strictly commentator, that's when the lyrics went downhill. They became more preachy and less of a fascination about the world. I think at some point along the way he decided he wanted to make statements. It's like he quit writing for himself and started writing what he thought he should write, if that makes sense.

I disagree with your last sentence. I think he's always written what he wanted. It's just that now he's an old man. Naturally, WHAT he writes and HOW he approaches a topic would be different than when he was 25 or 35. But as I said earlier, I DO prefer those 80s lyrics. "And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge, staring down into a heartless sea" is far more poetic than "all who dare to cross her course, are swallowed by a fearsome force" despite my greater love for the latter's musical muscle.

[EagleMoon]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

 

Maybe, but he did his fair share of social commentary back when he could still write engaging lyrics, so I think there's more to the story.

 

I was on my phone so I wasn't able to write out the detailed answer I really wanted to make. I think when he dropped the poet side of him and went strictly commentator, that's when the lyrics went downhill. They became more preachy and less of a fascination about the world. I think at some point along the way he decided he wanted to make statements. It's like he quit writing for himself and started writing what he thought he should write, if that makes sense.

I disagree with your last sentence. I think he's always written what he wanted. It's just that now he's an old man. Naturally, WHAT he writes and HOW he approaches a topic would be different than when he was 25 or 35. But as I said earlier, I DO prefer those 80s lyrics. "And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge, staring down into a heartless sea" is far more poetic than "all who dare to cross her course, are swallowed by a fearsome force" despite my greater love for the latter's musical muscle.

 

What's him being older have to do with it? I'm not sure I understand the point of saying that. Clockwork Angels seems very juvenile.

[Narps]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

 

Maybe, but he did his fair share of social commentary back when he could still write engaging lyrics, so I think there's more to the story.

 

I was on my phone so I wasn't able to write out the detailed answer I really wanted to make. I think when he dropped the poet side of him and went strictly commentator, that's when the lyrics went downhill. They became more preachy and less of a fascination about the world. I think at some point along the way he decided he wanted to make statements. It's like he quit writing for himself and started writing what he thought he should write, if that makes sense.

I disagree with your last sentence. I think he's always written what he wanted. It's just that now he's an old man. Naturally, WHAT he writes and HOW he approaches a topic would be different than when he was 25 or 35. But as I said earlier, I DO prefer those 80s lyrics. "And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge, staring down into a heartless sea" is far more poetic than "all who dare to cross her course, are swallowed by a fearsome force" despite my greater love for the latter's musical muscle.

 

What's him being older have to do with it? I'm not sure I understand the point of saying that. Clockwork Angels seems very juvenile.

Sorry but that nudged the funny bone. Carry on ...

[JohnnyBlaze]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

 

Maybe, but he did his fair share of social commentary back when he could still write engaging lyrics, so I think there's more to the story.

 

I was on my phone so I wasn't able to write out the detailed answer I really wanted to make. I think when he dropped the poet side of him and went strictly commentator, that's when the lyrics went downhill. They became more preachy and less of a fascination about the world. I think at some point along the way he decided he wanted to make statements. It's like he quit writing for himself and started writing what he thought he should write, if that makes sense.

I disagree with your last sentence. I think he's always written what he wanted. It's just that now he's an old man. Naturally, WHAT he writes and HOW he approaches a topic would be different than when he was 25 or 35. But as I said earlier, I DO prefer those 80s lyrics. "And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge, staring down into a heartless sea" is far more poetic than "all who dare to cross her course, are swallowed by a fearsome force" despite my greater love for the latter's musical muscle.

 

What's him being older have to do with it? I'm not sure I understand the point of saying that. Clockwork Angels seems very juvenile.

Age affects outlook. Outlook would affect how you write in many cases. Actually, I was going to use CA as an example of seeming juvenile...similar to some of those 70s lyrics. But you were saying that he's more of a social commenter where CA seems more of an ATTEMPT at colorful storytelling than social commentary. Though, it is both. An attempt at both that is.

For the record, I don't care about the CA lyrics but i don't think it's a case of him "trying to write what he thinks he should write" as you said before.

[EagleMoon]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

 

Maybe, but he did his fair share of social commentary back when he could still write engaging lyrics, so I think there's more to the story.

 

I was on my phone so I wasn't able to write out the detailed answer I really wanted to make. I think when he dropped the poet side of him and went strictly commentator, that's when the lyrics went downhill. They became more preachy and less of a fascination about the world. I think at some point along the way he decided he wanted to make statements. It's like he quit writing for himself and started writing what he thought he should write, if that makes sense.

I disagree with your last sentence. I think he's always written what he wanted. It's just that now he's an old man. Naturally, WHAT he writes and HOW he approaches a topic would be different than when he was 25 or 35. But as I said earlier, I DO prefer those 80s lyrics. "And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge, staring down into a heartless sea" is far more poetic than "all who dare to cross her course, are swallowed by a fearsome force" despite my greater love for the latter's musical muscle.

 

What's him being older have to do with it? I'm not sure I understand the point of saying that. Clockwork Angels seems very juvenile.

Age affects outlook. Outlook would affect how you write in many cases. Actually, I was going to use CA as an example of seeming juvenile...similar to some of those 70s lyrics. But you were saying that he's more of a social commenter where CA seems more of an ATTEMPT at colorful storytelling than social commentary. Though, it is both. An attempt at both that is.

For the record, I don't care about the CA lyrics but i don't think it's a case of him "trying to write what he thinks he should write" as you said before.

 

Then we'll just agree to disagree. :)

[JohnnyBlaze]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

 

Maybe, but he did his fair share of social commentary back when he could still write engaging lyrics, so I think there's more to the story.

 

I was on my phone so I wasn't able to write out the detailed answer I really wanted to make. I think when he dropped the poet side of him and went strictly commentator, that's when the lyrics went downhill. They became more preachy and less of a fascination about the world. I think at some point along the way he decided he wanted to make statements. It's like he quit writing for himself and started writing what he thought he should write, if that makes sense.

I disagree with your last sentence. I think he's always written what he wanted. It's just that now he's an old man. Naturally, WHAT he writes and HOW he approaches a topic would be different than when he was 25 or 35. But as I said earlier, I DO prefer those 80s lyrics. "And now you're trembling on a rocky ledge, staring down into a heartless sea" is far more poetic than "all who dare to cross her course, are swallowed by a fearsome force" despite my greater love for the latter's musical muscle.

 

What's him being older have to do with it? I'm not sure I understand the point of saying that. Clockwork Angels seems very juvenile.

Age affects outlook. Outlook would affect how you write in many cases. Actually, I was going to use CA as an example of seeming juvenile...similar to some of those 70s lyrics. But you were saying that he's more of a social commenter where CA seems more of an ATTEMPT at colorful storytelling than social commentary. Though, it is both. An attempt at both that is.

For the record, I don't care about the CA lyrics but i don't think it's a case of him "trying to write what he thinks he should write" as you said before.

 

Then we'll just agree to disagree. :)

Not sure what there's to disagree about. Age doesn't affect outlook thereby affecting writing approach?

Lyrically, I'd rate Peart's lyrics like this:

80s > 70s > 90s > 21st century

 

((Edited to add: I do think Peart's greatest lyrical garbage can be found on RTB. See also You Bet Your Life, Face Up, and Neurotica))

Edited September 26, 2015 by JohnnyBlaze

[Xanadoood]

The lyrics and themes from a lot of his 70s stuff is why Rush were ridiculed so much. I prefer his output from 1980 onward.. I get that a lot of the older Rush fans , being nerds from that era, felt an affinity for shit like a farewell to kings, but everyone else thought it was just goofy juvenile ridiculousness.. It's the reason why guys like Springsteen were so lauded. He wrote about real life struggles and people could identify.. Neil finally figured out that was the way to go Edited September 26, 2015 by Xanadoood

[JohnnyBlaze]

The lyrics and themes from a lot of his 70s stuff is why Rush were ridiculed so much. I prefer his output from 1980 onward.. I get that a lot of the older Rush fans , bring nerds from that era, felt an affinity for shit like a farewell to kings, but everyone else thought it was just goofy juvenile shit

That's pretty much what I was saying earlier. But I do prefer the dorky Xanadu lyrics (yes, dorky) over "the odds get even" lyrical crap

[Lucas]

The lyrics and themes from a lot of his 70s stuff is why Rush were ridiculed so much. I prefer his output from 1980 onward.. I get that a lot of the older Rush fans , being nerds from that era, felt an affinity for shit like a farewell to kings, but everyone else thought it was just goofy juvenile ridiculousness.. It's the reason why guys like Springsteen were so lauded. He wrote about real life struggles and people could identify.. Neil finally figured out that was the way to go

 

This is part of my point .. The fantastic thing about music - or any form of art - is the fact that it is always there for the listener or viewer or reader, and while I don't want to get into Springsteen's sincerity, not everyone wants to hear about more real life struggles than they already have at any given time ..

 

I use The Bible as an example of over-the-top imagery and storytelling, as it is there to transport the reader and in fact, spark the reader's own creative mind ...

 

Be that as it may, I always thought Rush did the sci-fi, nerd thing so well ... And when it came to the real-life commentary and communicating that feeling to the listener, that's when they were actually juvenile ....

 

.

 

.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Lucas

[Lucas]

What should be taken into question - and if we are using the word "ridiculed", so be it - but what I find ironic is that a segment of the same people who found Neil's 70s lyrics juvenile or insincere or lacking are the same people who bought into Bruce Springsteen's blue collar image of the 70s and 80s and cheered Springsteen on as he stood up on stage - a multi millionaire - in a flannel shirt and singing Woody Guthrie's This Land Is Your Land .. Playing it on a Japanese made Takamine guitar that he endorsed while at that exact same time, the iconic American-made Gibson guitar company was going bankrupt ..

 

My point is that some fans get to be a part of the imagery, and some fans are simply duped into it

 

 

.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Lucas

[MMCXII]

Rational thinking constantly forced into art tends to be very sterile

 

I'm just saying that any artist - in this case, Neil, Alex and Geddy - is more interesting when there is an air of mystery and a good chunk of irrational nuttiness

 

Why should there be any interest in art that simply reinforces the viewer or listener's already developed views on rational or ethical positions ??

 

The fact that Rush used the Biblical story of Jacob's Ladder as a springboard for one of their greatest accomplishments kinda says it all ..

 

 

 

http://www.artble.com/imgs/9/d/f/424815/jacob_s_dream.jpg

 

I don't think Rush used any biblical springboards on this one.. it's about a weather phenomenon that is named after a biblical story.

[goose]

Neil went from being a poet to being a social commentator. That's when his lyrics became sterile.

Right after Caress of Steel, then?

[goose]

Rational thinking constantly forced into art tends to be very sterile

 

I'm just saying that any artist - in this case, Neil, Alex and Geddy - is more interesting when there is an air of mystery and a good chunk of irrational nuttiness

 

Why should there be any interest in art that simply reinforces the viewer or listener's already developed views on rational or ethical positions ??

 

The fact that Rush used the Biblical story of Jacob's Ladder as a springboard for one of their greatest accomplishments kinda says it all ..

 

 

 

http://www.artble.com/imgs/9/d/f/424815/jacob_s_dream.jpg

 

I don't think Rush used any biblical springboards on this one.. it's about a weather phenomenon that is named after a biblical story.

:goodone:

 

The clouds prepare for battle

In the dark and brooding silence

Bruised and sullen stormclouds

Have the light of day obscured

Looming low and ominous

In twilight premature

Thunderheads are rumbling

In a distant overture

 

All at once,

The clouds are parted

Light streams down

In bright unbroken beams

 

Follow men's eyes

As they look to the skies

The shifting shafts of shining

Weave the fabric of their dreams...

 

 

No religious reference in there.

[MMCXII]

Rational thinking constantly forced into art tends to be very sterile

 

I'm just saying that any artist - in this case, Neil, Alex and Geddy - is more interesting when there is an air of mystery and a good chunk of irrational nuttiness

 

Why should there be any interest in art that simply reinforces the viewer or listener's already developed views on rational or ethical positions ??

 

The fact that Rush used the Biblical story of Jacob's Ladder as a springboard for one of their greatest accomplishments kinda says it all ..

 

 

 

http://www.artble.com/imgs/9/d/f/424815/jacob_s_dream.jpg

 

I don't think Rush used any biblical springboards on this one.. it's about a weather phenomenon that is named after a biblical story.

:goodone:

 

The clouds prepare for battle

In the dark and brooding silence

Bruised and sullen stormclouds

Have the light of day obscured

Looming low and ominous

In twilight premature

Thunderheads are rumbling

In a distant overture

 

All at once,

The clouds are parted

Light streams down

In bright unbroken beams

 

Follow men's eyes

As they look to the skies

The shifting shafts of shining

Weave the fabric of their dreams...

 

 

No religious reference in there.

 

Thanks dude! Ya I see clouds parting but no Red Sea..

[MMCXII]

Nice thread Lucas. what are your thoughts on CA lyrics? It's seems as though he tried to dip into the past a bit but fell short somehow.. I can't really explain how but something's missing

[hcm]

I am not Lucas but I believe he was hampered on the CA lyrics by co authoring the book. Not only is writing lyrics very different from a novel he was having to stay true to a story while allowing each song to also stand on it's own. I would think he created CA in a completely different way than other lryics