Neil's drumming...what gives?

[EagleMoon]

I honestly feel a similar way about Geddy. His bass playing has gotten better and better even over the last 5-6 years. Incredible how a man his age can continue to improve.

 

However, I do not care for his style of play now. He's still aggressive but that flamenco, flicky style and his runs are not as melodic as they once were. What drew me to his playing was how melodic he played while still being aggressive and "nasty" at times.

 

All that said, he has gotten better.

 

I think the same goes for Neil. You may not like what he's playing but his technique and subtleties have improved.

 

I think Lee's busy runs (okay . . . let me rephrase that: Lee's busy bass runs) in Headlong Flight seem like his old style of playing. I'll have to watch the video again to see if he's doing that with is his, as you call it, "flicky style" (which I think should be adopted as the official term for that technique).

 

I think his bass playing got a lot less interesting when he started the flicky/flamenco type of playing. It's all right if you're doing repetitive 8th or 16th notes, but he uses it a lot now.(Animate comes to mind) I agree about Headlong Flight. That song has some kick-butt bass on it.

[Lorraine]

Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Neil is "natural" drummer. Things don't come easily for him, and everything he has achieved has been through hard work. He's pretty much admitted this. His comments regarding the "The drum also waltzes" 3/4 foot thing are pretty telling.

I could have done everything Neil did, but without the talent, it wouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans. You can't teach talent. You can only perfect it.

 

Neil is a natural drummer.

[GeminiRising79]

Don't get me started on the stick-flip...Son, I am disappoint.

[coventry]

In a late-90's interview (or maybe the liner notes on a tourbook?), Neil said that playing with Gruber taught him to think of the movement between hits, how that movement is 99% of drumming. That stuck with me and probably influenced my drumming to no small extent.

 

I don't think Neil will ever "groove" in the way Bruford grooves on "Roundabout", but Rush doesn't necessarily groove, either.

 

And several posters seem right in pointing out the confusion of mistaking technical complexity for being good. Neil's always been technically complex (well, at least since he joined Rush), but thinking more Zen about drumming, about the spaces between notes, seems more the mark of mature musician. It's like what the great violinist Isaac Stern said about trying to make his bow float above the strings until the moment contact was needed, and no more, and how hard that is to do.

[Geddy's Soul Patch]

I agree that Neil's style has gotten a bit less exciting, but I don't understand all of this talk about how he doesn't "groove". Grooving is one of the things that I think Rush is best at. Just listen to Different Strings or A Passage to Bangkok

[EagleMoon]

I agree that Neil's style has gotten a bit less exciting, but I don't understand all of this talk about how he doesn't "groove". Grooving is one of the things that I think Rush is best at. Just listen to Different Strings or A Passage to Bangkok

 

I think that's some of the point. He doesn't do interesting things like that as much anymore.

[Captain Avatar]

Contrary to popular belief, I don't think Neil is "natural" drummer. Things don't come easily for him, and everything he has achieved has been through hard work. He's pretty much admitted this. His comments regarding the "The drum also waltzes" 3/4 foot thing are pretty telling.

I could have done everything Neil did, but without the talent, it wouldn't have amounted to a hill of beans. You can't teach talent. You can only perfect it.

 

Neil is a natural drummer.

 

I agree. I don't think there's any way a person can reach the kind of heights Neil has reached on the drums without having loads of natural talent. Sure, Neil's work ethic is legendary, but to be playing (and inventing) the kinds of drum parts he recorded in his early twenties, after only ten years of drumming, is, in my opinion, quite astounding. There are guys on YouTube who do excellent covers of Rush songs (such as Astrotama and Pauliewanna), who have been playing for twenty or thirty years, and who yet admit to being technically inferior to Neil.

 

That's not to say there aren't absolute freaks of nature like Buddy Rich, who toured around the world as a drumming wonder when he was only three years old or something, but he's a one in a million anomaly. Neil was born with loads of natural rhythmic talent, and then he obsessively honed that talent through uncanny work ethic. He's even said that his first drum instructor, from whom he took lessons at a music conservatory, told him that of all the students he ever taught, he knew Neil was a true drummer from the beginning.

[coventry]

I agree that Neil's style has gotten a bit less exciting, but I don't understand all of this talk about how he doesn't "groove". Grooving is one of the things that I think Rush is best at. Just listen to Different Strings or A Passage to Bangkok

 

I'm sorry? "Different Strings" is a grooving tune? "A Passage to Bangkok"? I mean, maybe on the latter's instrumental bridge, but the closest Rush has come to grooving is maybe "Where's My Thing" or "Alien Shore" or "YYZ"

[Geddy's Soul Patch]

I agree that Neil's style has gotten a bit less exciting, but I don't understand all of this talk about how he doesn't "groove". Grooving is one of the things that I think Rush is best at. Just listen to Different Strings or A Passage to Bangkok

 

I'm sorry? "Different Strings" is a grooving tune? "A Passage to Bangkok"? I mean, maybe on the latter's instrumental bridge, but the closest Rush has come to grooving is maybe "Where's My Thing" or "Alien Shore" or "YYZ"

I think Rush has grooved many many times. Different Strings and Passage certainly groove

[Pound of Obscure]

Somewhere around the Buddy Rich tribute and the Great Gruber Debacle, Neil decided he was too mature for all that "show off" drumming. That's for kids. Since T4E, his parts have been well constructed, tasteful and quite boring. With a few exceptions. A good example was when Booger, or whatever his name is, made him play that fill in Caravan and Neil said, "I would have never dared to be so bold". What?!!!! You're Neil Freakin Peart. That's what made you Neil Freakin Peart. When did you turn in to my dad? I've bothered to learn one song in the last three albums, Headlong Flight. Its the only one interesting enough or challenging enough to sit down and play.

[EagleMoon]

Somewhere around the Buddy Rich tribute and the Great Gruber Debacle, Neil decided he was too mature for all that "show off" drumming. That's for kids. Since T4E, his parts have been well constructed, tasteful and quite boring. With a few exceptions. A good example was when Booger, or whatever his name is, made him play that fill in Caravan and Neil said, "I would have never dared to be so bold". What?!!!! You're Neil Freakin Peart. That's what made you Neil Freakin Peart. When did you turn in to my dad? I've bothered to learn one song in the last three albums, Headlong Flight. Its the only one interesting enough or challenging enough to sit down and play.

 

That's funny, I thought the same thing about that comment. A tom run is bold? Seriously?

[Rod in Toronto]

Oh he may have evolved allright. But to these untrained ears of mine, his drumming has sounded less and less busy at each record, starting with T4E, with the sole exception of Headlong Flight. At least to me, his early 80´s period is unbeatable in terms of experimentation and cool fills.

[hem]

I've always preferred Neil's work from the very late seventies up to mid eighties. Even knowing nothing about drums then, his work really excited me. Since Power Windows, I felt the whole band has been in gradual decline with moments of brilliance becoming less and less. The drums are a big part of that. I even remember hearing a new album when it came out and thinking that it sounded boring in the rhythm section. I was shocked.

[Del_Duio]

Given that info, I couldn't wait to listen to Test for Echo, expecting drum parts that blew away anything Neil had ever done before. I listened to it for the first time and was completely underwhelmed, thinking that it contained some of his simplest sounding stuff (ex. Half the World, Color of Right).

 

See, that might be exactly what he was going for though. It's the "Less is More" mentality. Like how a really good bass player knows not only when to play but when not to play. I remember watching some interview with Neil around that time and he said that Freddie had him come in and only play the hi-hat for hours at a time before until he 'got it right', whatever that means!

 

I think a lot of musicians learn this eventually (Well, maybe not Vinnie Vincent haha). Look back at a lot of bands' debut albums and you'll see what I mean. Chops and fills everywhere just because. Then later comes the better songwriting and restraint. I mean sure, it's not with every band but I do notice this stuff from time to time.

[Del_Duio]

Yea neil's drumming from T4E on is much less exciting. And it REALLY Sticks out if you marathon the entire discography, IMO.

 

Mick

 

I don't know if maybe he's focusing on the small things rather than the whole song? He got a lot more into the electronic side of things at that point, so maybe that's part of it? It's like he doesn't really experiment much anymore. I would love to see the acoustic stuff make a comeback, like the bells and the chimes..etc...but I doubt that'll ever happen.

 

Now that's not exactly true, I mean check recent drum solos in concert. Some of those weird industrial-sounding deals.

Seems pretty experimental to me!

[Del_Duio]

I agree that Neil's style has gotten a bit less exciting, but I don't understand all of this talk about how he doesn't "groove". Grooving is one of the things that I think Rush is best at. Just listen to Different Strings or A Passage to Bangkok

 

I'm sorry? "Different Strings" is a grooving tune? "A Passage to Bangkok"? I mean, maybe on the latter's instrumental bridge, but the closest Rush has come to grooving is maybe "Where's My Thing" or "Alien Shore" or "YYZ"

I think Rush has grooved many many times. Different Strings and Passage certainly groove

 

Oh hell yeah! Passage to Bangkok's main groove starts at the guitar solo / right after the audible TOKE.

Great bass and drum combo right there :D

[MMCXII]

Somewhere around the Buddy Rich tribute and the Great Gruber Debacle, Neil decided he was too mature for all that "show off" drumming. That's for kids. Since T4E, his parts have been well constructed, tasteful and quite boring. With a few exceptions. A good example was when Booger, or whatever his name is, made him play that fill in Caravan and Neil said, "I would have never dared to be so bold". What?!!!! You're Neil Freakin Peart. That's what made you Neil Freakin Peart. When did you turn in to my dad? I've bothered to learn one song in the last three albums, Headlong Flight. Its the only one interesting enough or challenging enough to sit down and play.

 

I kind of agree. But for me, I would add Caravan, also a blast to play!

[EagleMoon]

Yea neil's drumming from T4E on is much less exciting. And it REALLY Sticks out if you marathon the entire discography, IMO.

 

Mick

 

I don't know if maybe he's focusing on the small things rather than the whole song? He got a lot more into the electronic side of things at that point, so maybe that's part of it? It's like he doesn't really experiment much anymore. I would love to see the acoustic stuff make a comeback, like the bells and the chimes..etc...but I doubt that'll ever happen.

 

Now that's not exactly true, I mean check recent drum solos in concert. Some of those weird industrial-sounding deals.

Seems pretty experimental to me!

 

Yes but he's been doing pretty much the same drum solo now for years, with a few new sounds thrown in. He's not really experimenting with different formats or acoustic percussion that much anymore.

[Rod in Toronto]

I was listening to Clockwork Angels the other day, and while his drumming in it is certainly busier than Snakes & Arrows, there´s hardly a moment in the whole album where I think "wow, that fill really belw me away!", or "what a crazy time signature!". It may be the case where they´re getting rid of all the excess from their early years and adopting the less is more approach, but Neil´s excess was a huge part of why I came to love Rush. He´s changed from the odd time signature mastermind to a slightly improved version of Keith Moon in the latest albums.

[bathory]

to the average rush fan, better = more complex, more complicated, no groove. music starts with kansas, ends with dream theater. there is nothing else.

 

to someone who's actually worth a f**k when it comes to playing music, it's common knowledge that there's a time and a place for different styles, and sometimes simplistic drumming fits the song better. I think it's probably harder to play a nice, solid beat than it is to masturbate all over a song by trying to squeeze in as many fills as possible.

 

that being said, I do prefer peart's old style, and I think the rush guys should stick to what they're experts at instead of trying so hard to seem so serious and "legitimate.". but let's be honest, would test for echo and snakes and arrows sound any better with mechanical portnoy-style drums? hell no. test for echo would sound even dumber if neil was trying to recreate natural science on all the songs.

[EagleMoon]

to the average rush fan, better = more complex, more complicated, no groove. music starts with kansas, ends with dream theater. there is nothing else.

 

to someone who's actually worth a f**k when it comes to playing music, it's common knowledge that there's a time and a place for different styles, and sometimes simplistic drumming fits the song better. I think it's probably harder to play a nice, solid beat than it is to masturbate all over a song by trying to squeeze in as many fills as possible.

 

that being said, I do prefer peart's old style, and I think the rush guys should stick to what they're experts at instead of trying so hard to seem so serious and "legitimate.". but let's be honest, would test for echo and snakes and arrows sound any better with mechanical portnoy-style drums? hell no. test for echo would sound even dumber if neil was trying to recreate natural science on all the songs.

 

Nothing would sound better with Portnoy-style drums. Even Dream Theater can't write songs with a decent melody for the most part.they are the Charles Ives of the rock world. Rush has them beat by a mile in that department.

 

Neil has stopped being innovative and experimental. That's sad, but the entire band has gone down this road. They still write good songs, but it's become a bunch of distortion with predictable drumming underneath. Only stand-outs are the ones people have mentioned, Headlong Flight and Caravan, and even those are barely up to the standard of pre-Vapor Trails.

[coventry]

You know how couples at the beginning of a relationship usually try their best to show each other their chops? And everything seems new and awe-inspiring as each shows the other cool things and listen to cool sounds. And a happily married couple of 30 years doesn't really need to do that anymore - a quick exchange of smiles across a crowded room is all that's necessary to cement the connection; a Mercedes CLS-550 seems preferable to a tricked-out import.

 

Yes, what drew me in to Neil's drumming were the technical fireworks; what keeps me listening is how he manages to make every song complete. Yes, some fills are more throwaway than others, but Neil is now more a composer than a performer, a la Stewart Copeland. He puts much more thought into his parts and how they build into the song than on compartmentalized licks. The Neil who played the last 45 seconds of "2112" could have performed, but never have written the drum parts to "Clockwork Angels" or the spectacularly limb-independent finale to "Speed of Love", or the beautiful little fill that leads into the instrumental of "Show Don't Tell" around the 3:14-17 mark (or, for that matter, the complex and subtle drumming that makes up that tune's brilliance).

 

The guy's in his sixties; he's not a 24-year old drummer anymore.

[bathory]

to the average rush fan, better = more complex, more complicated, no groove. music starts with kansas, ends with dream theater. there is nothing else.

 

to someone who's actually worth a f**k when it comes to playing music, it's common knowledge that there's a time and a place for different styles, and sometimes simplistic drumming fits the song better. I think it's probably harder to play a nice, solid beat than it is to masturbate all over a song by trying to squeeze in as many fills as possible.

 

that being said, I do prefer peart's old style, and I think the rush guys should stick to what they're experts at instead of trying so hard to seem so serious and "legitimate.". but let's be honest, would test for echo and snakes and arrows sound any better with mechanical portnoy-style drums? hell no. test for echo would sound even dumber if neil was trying to recreate natural science on all the songs.

 

Nothing would sound better with Portnoy-style drums. Even Dream Theater can't write songs with a decent melody for the most part.they are the Charles Ives of the rock world. Rush has them beat by a mile in that department.

 

Neil has stopped being innovative and experimental. That's sad, but the entire band has gone down this road. They still write good songs, but it's become a bunch of distortion with predictable drumming underneath. Only stand-outs are the ones people have mentioned, Headlong Flight and Caravan, and even those are barely up to the standard of pre-Vapor Trails.

 

I like images and words, awake and scenes from a memory but other than that I'm not a big DT fan either.

 

I don't think new rush is as good as old rush either, I was just saying that neil's current drumming style suits the songs bettler than his old style would.

[EagleMoon]

to the average rush fan, better = more complex, more complicated, no groove. music starts with kansas, ends with dream theater. there is nothing else.

 

to someone who's actually worth a f**k when it comes to playing music, it's common knowledge that there's a time and a place for different styles, and sometimes simplistic drumming fits the song better. I think it's probably harder to play a nice, solid beat than it is to masturbate all over a song by trying to squeeze in as many fills as possible.

 

that being said, I do prefer peart's old style, and I think the rush guys should stick to what they're experts at instead of trying so hard to seem so serious and "legitimate.". but let's be honest, would test for echo and snakes and arrows sound any better with mechanical portnoy-style drums? hell no. test for echo would sound even dumber if neil was trying to recreate natural science on all the songs.

 

Nothing would sound better with Portnoy-style drums. Even Dream Theater can't write songs with a decent melody for the most part.they are the Charles Ives of the rock world. Rush has them beat by a mile in that department.

 

Neil has stopped being innovative and experimental. That's sad, but the entire band has gone down this road. They still write good songs, but it's become a bunch of distortion with predictable drumming underneath. Only stand-outs are the ones people have mentioned, Headlong Flight and Caravan, and even those are barely up to the standard of pre-Vapor Trails.

 

I like images and words, awake and scenes from a memory but other than that I'm not a big DT fan either.

 

I don't think new rush is as good as old rush either, I was just saying that neil's current drumming style suits the songs bettler than his old style would.

 

I see what you mean. It's hard to tell what the younger Neil would've done on the newer material. I think it might have rocked harder. I think some of the problem is that they don't leave enough space in their music anymore. Part of being able to hear each instrument clearly is the amount of tracks they use, but also the type of songs they're writing. You really do need to learn when to play and when to leave space, and it seems as time has gone on they've tried to fill up the spaces much more. That's not usually a good thing.

[himey]

they are all getting old. in their mind they are playing hemispheres but its not even close. when they are done recording a new song the effort they put out to them seems like they were "bringing it" but to all of their long time fans they are thinking it is a not too much of an effort.