New 30 second clips of Vapor Trail remix

[ShlappinDahBass]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

[Freeze-Frame]

I couldn't listen to the original 30-second clips because Amazon hates me, so this is the first time I listened these clips. I already love Vapor trails as it is, but I am just ecstatic for this new remix. The sound is just much more clean and more melodic. So far, I'm really excited for Nocturne. I didn't listen to that song originally, but now it just sounds heavenly. What my least favorite thing about these clips is the dual voice-over on Peaceable Kingdom. I liked it much better when it was only Geddy singing the high-end to the lyrics.

 

Anyway, I'm buying this as soon as it comes out on September 30th right after I get out on school.

 

 

http://img.rush.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Rush_VaporTrails_Remix_Cover.jpg

[Lerxster]

Thanks for posting, you lucky dog! Did you notice the guitar less prominent? I thought I did on a few songs from the samples. Danke!

Gerne :)

Yep, but I think that is mainly because of the fewer layers and the clearer sound overall. The wall of guitar noise is gone and it sounds more "pure".

 

I made a screen for you which might wet your tongues :) Those are the old and the new Earthshine mixes in comparison:

http://www19.zippyshare.com/v/31494276/file.html

Danke schön for the confirmation. I'll check Earthshine out when I get to a computer. Schätzen Sie es!

[GeminiRising79]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

 

I see your point of the VT remix being a remaster, 1001, but in essence, it really it isn't. Calling it a remaster is only a matter of convenience. VT was an inconceivably and terribly flawed release that people have been complaining about it since its inception. It is/was undeniably the worst blemish in Rush's recording history. Rush having its fans pay again for its remix is ludicrous and really shows where the band's artistic integrity is tiered at, imo.

Edited September 26, 2013 by GeminiRising79

[presto123]

I always thought that Rush should have to finance the remix out of their own pocket(the right thing to do) but in reality I knew that was never going to be the case. I will gladly buy the remix because I love that record but I still think Rush should have stepped to the plate and provided replacement CD's for everybody that wanted to exchange their original copies of the CD.

[Lerxster]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

Your point was.. what? I'm not sure what your point is anymore. There's nothing wrong with disagreements about songs, albums, etc. There's a difference between disagreeing and trolling. Most folks are fine wifh differing opinions. I sure try to be. 'x' number of people aren't fine with trolls, and I think it's fairly clear who trolls here and who is just giving an honest opinion. I think most people here ignore the trolls, some disagree with them, some treat them like dirt for treating Rush or their fans like dirt, and a couple dopes may cheer them on.

 

What was your point?

[ShlappinDahBass]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

Your point was.. what? I'm not sure what your point is anymore. There's nothing wrong with disagreements about songs, albums, etc. There's a difference between disagreeing and trolling. Most folks are fine wifh differing opinions. I sure try to be. 'x' number of people aren't fine with trolls, and I think it's fairly clear who trolls here and who is just giving an honest opinion. I think most people here ignore the trolls, some disagree with them, some treat them like dirt for treating Rush or their fans like dirt, and a couple dopes may cheer them on.

 

What was your point?

 

Haha sorry! I guess I didn't really explain it. My point was people need to chill out on opinions and semi-good ideas. Even if it makes the band look bad in some way, shape, or form.

[Lerxster]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

Your point was.. what? I'm not sure what your point is anymore. There's nothing wrong with disagreements about songs, albums, etc. There's a difference between disagreeing and trolling. Most folks are fine wifh differing opinions. I sure try to be. 'x' number of people aren't fine with trolls, and I think it's fairly clear who trolls here and who is just giving an honest opinion. I think most people here ignore the trolls, some disagree with them, some treat them like dirt for treating Rush or their fans like dirt, and a couple dopes may cheer them on.

 

What was your point?

 

Haha sorry! I guess I didn't really explain it. My point was people need to chill out on opinions and semi-good ideas. Even if it makes the band look bad in some way, shape, or form.

hey I'm all for opinions and semi-good ideas. Most here are. But then look at GR's response to 1001 just above. Pure trollery with his "I see your point 1001, but let me ignore logic and reason and blissfully troll some more because I love insulting Rush in front of an audience of thoughtful passionate intelligent Rush fans."

[Lerxster]

I always thought that Rush should have to finance the remix out of their own pocket(the right thing to do) but in reality I knew that was never going to be the case. I will gladly buy the remix because I love that record but I still think Rush should have stepped to the plate and provided replacement CD's for everybody that wanted to exchange their original copies of the CD.

How do you know Rush didn't finance it? They certainly aren't charging any more for it than any other remaster. How about everyone who bought he original West German releases. Shouldn't we have all gotten the 97 remasters for free? Have you been reading this thread? :P

[ShlappinDahBass]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

Your point was.. what? I'm not sure what your point is anymore. There's nothing wrong with disagreements about songs, albums, etc. There's a difference between disagreeing and trolling. Most folks are fine wifh differing opinions. I sure try to be. 'x' number of people aren't fine with trolls, and I think it's fairly clear who trolls here and who is just giving an honest opinion. I think most people here ignore the trolls, some disagree with them, some treat them like dirt for treating Rush or their fans like dirt, and a couple dopes may cheer them on.

 

What was your point?

 

Haha sorry! I guess I didn't really explain it. My point was people need to chill out on opinions and semi-good ideas. Even if it makes the band look bad in some way, shape, or form.

hey I'm all for opinions and semi-good ideas. Most here are. But then look at GR's response to 1001 just above. Pure trollery with his "I see your point 1001, but let me ignore logic and reason and blissfully troll some more because I love insulting Rush in front of an audience of thoughtful passionate intelligent Rush fans."

 

I know about trolling. What he's doing isn't necessarily "trolling" per-se. But he's just completely ignoring facts and REALLY, REALLY wants to be right. Just ignore it. Trust me, ignoring annoying people go a long way! :D

[Lerxster]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

Your point was.. what? I'm not sure what your point is anymore. There's nothing wrong with disagreements about songs, albums, etc. There's a difference between disagreeing and trolling. Most folks are fine wifh differing opinions. I sure try to be. 'x' number of people aren't fine with trolls, and I think it's fairly clear who trolls here and who is just giving an honest opinion. I think most people here ignore the trolls, some disagree with them, some treat them like dirt for treating Rush or their fans like dirt, and a couple dopes may cheer them on.

 

What was your point?

 

Haha sorry! I guess I didn't really explain it. My point was people need to chill out on opinions and semi-good ideas. Even if it makes the band look bad in some way, shape, or form.

hey I'm all for opinions and semi-good ideas. Most here are. But then look at GR's response to 1001 just above. Pure trollery with his "I see your point 1001, but let me ignore logic and reason and blissfully troll some more because I love insulting Rush in front of an audience of thoughtful passionate intelligent Rush fans."

 

I know about trolling. What he's doing isn't necessarily "trolling" per-se. But he's just completely ignoring facts and REALLY, REALLY wants to be right. Just ignore it. Trust me, ignoring annoying people go a long way! :D

I disagree. I feel that GR is in full troll mode here. I also wish people would stop bringing up rushgoober in every VT thread, but they don't. Screws fall out all the time, the world is an imperfect place.

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

 

Goobs gets mocked because he continually trolls the VT threads. If he's going to do that he's going to get crap for it in return. But I definitely agree with you that, in many of those threads, people are mentioning him before he even makes a post. It's a vicious cycle -- Goobs gets mentioned because of all the past times he's railed on against VT, and mentioning him in every new thread invites him to continue it.

 

And just to be clear, what Goobs is doing is not the end of the world, and not a serious problem that we mods are sitting down and discussing -- even though I think he'd like us to. It earns him a new member title once in a while, but that's it. :)

[Snaked]

 

 

I'm also waiting for the return of a more accurate user title for Goober. I favour 'Vapour Trolls.'

 

 

THIS!

[Tony R]

The simple fact of the matter is that Rush have admitted it was a botched job, a faulty release. They should do a recall and give CD owners a big discount.

That said you can pick up the album for £6 if you are so disposed.

 

The reason Rush have waited so long is clear, it can only be for legal reasons. To admit it's a faulty product soon after the release could have proved costly...

 

If this was any other band except Rush, people here would be arguing in a different manner.

 

[big lou]

I picked up the album a couple hours ago -- 5 songs in. I was a little unprepared for how drastic it would be. The album still has balls – but the layers and separation are now so distinct. If you didn’t enjoy the layers/overdubs before – this may not be for you.

I loved VT already and wasn’t expecting my attitude to change much -- but this really takes it to another level.

[Lerxster]

The simple fact of the matter is that Rush have admitted it was a botched job, a faulty release. They should do a recall and give CD owners a big discount.

That said you can pick up the album for £6 if you are so disposed.

 

The reason Rush have waited so long is clear, it can only be for legal reasons. To admit it's a faulty product soon after the release could have proved costly...

 

If this was any other band except Rush, people here would be arguing in a different manner.

I actually think the main reason was the new Atlantic remasters. To have shiny remasters in the new box set with an old crusty VT would be a major faux pas. Thus, the perfect impetus to get that VT remix project off the back burner.

 

Legal reasons? Who in their right mind would sue Rush over VT?

 

 

[Tarkus406]

I picked up the album a couple hours ago -- 5 songs in. I was a little unprepared for how drastic it would be. The album still has balls – but the layers and separation are now so distinct. If you didn’t enjoy the layers/overdubs before – this may not be for you.

 

I loved VT already and wasn’t expecting my attitude to change much -- but this really takes it to another level.

I thought the album releases on Sep 30?

[ShlappinDahBass]

I picked up the album a couple hours ago -- 5 songs in. I was a little unprepared for how drastic it would be. The album still has balls – but the layers and separation are now so distinct. If you didn’t enjoy the layers/overdubs before – this may not be for you.

 

I loved VT already and wasn’t expecting my attitude to change much -- but this really takes it to another level.

I thought the album releases on Sep 30?

 

Yeah, seriously, what's going on here?

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

I picked up the album a couple hours ago -- 5 songs in. I was a little unprepared for how drastic it would be. The album still has balls – but the layers and separation are now so distinct. If you didn’t enjoy the layers/overdubs before – this may not be for you.

 

I loved VT already and wasn’t expecting my attitude to change much -- but this really takes it to another level.

I thought the album releases on Sep 30?

 

Yeah, seriously, what's going on here?

 

I believe some countries in Europe get it before the 30th.

[big lou]

Always still some Independents that sell early. I haven't bought a Rush album on it's street date since Power Windows. I may be naïve but I figure there are many, many places to buy early in large cities and their suburbs.

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

The simple fact of the matter is that Rush have admitted it was a botched job, a faulty release. They should do a recall and give CD owners a big discount.

That said you can pick up the album for £6 if you are so disposed.

 

The reason Rush have waited so long is clear, it can only be for legal reasons. To admit it's a faulty product soon after the release could have proved costly...

 

If this was any other band except Rush, people here would be arguing in a different manner.

I actually think the main reason was the new Atlantic remasters. To have shiny remasters in the new box set with an old crusty VT would be a major faux pas. Thus, the perfect impetus to get that VT remix project off the back burner.

 

Legal reasons? Who in their right mind would sue Rush over VT?

 

 

 

Tony's right -- we Rush fans are a forgiving bunch (at least, I think that's what he was saying there). If you go back and recall conversations on Rush communities since 2002, I don't think many fans were threatening lawsuits to get VT redone -- they simply complained about the sound quality and said, "I hope they remaster it soon," and started hundreds of threads on multiple message boards debating on whether VT needed a remaster, a remix or even a re-recording of the original tracks. It's an album that didn't sound good, but it's a very important album in the band's history and most fans didn't take it beyond simply complaining about it.

 

Now it's 13 years after the fact. We can now get the remix for nine bucks or five pounds or whatever, and it's easier to spend that small amount of money than it would be to organize an official campaign to initiate a recall/exchange program that probably wouldn't produce any results -- and really, would that kind of effort be necessary? We're not talking about a defective child car seat. It's just a music CD.

[rushgoober]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

 

Goobs gets mocked because he continually trolls the VT threads. If he's going to do that he's going to get crap for it in return. But I definitely agree with you that, in many of those threads, people are mentioning him before he even makes a post. It's a vicious cycle -- Goobs gets mentioned because of all the past times he's railed on against VT, and mentioning him in every new thread invites him to continue it.

 

And just to be clear, what Goobs is doing is not the end of the world, and not a serious problem that we mods are sitting down and discussing -- even though I think he'd like us to. It earns him a new member title once in a while, but that's it. :)

 

 

I would have been shocked had the mods sat down and discussed my feelings on VT!

 

And I don't look at is getting mocked, I kind of look at as the othe way around, because at the end of the day when all is said and done and everyone picks up their marbles and goes home.... Vapor Trails is still a horrendous album and an embarrassment to their legacy and no amount of rabid Rush fan drooling is going to make it or a remixed version of it listenable. :haz:

 

Thankfully, they have 15 awesome albums and a cool EP to make up for the very small handful of mediocre to bad releases.

Edited September 26, 2013 by rushgoober

[losingit2k]

The simple fact of the matter is that Rush have admitted it was a botched job, a faulty release. They should do a recall and give CD owners a big discount.

That said you can pick up the album for £6 if you are so disposed.

 

The reason Rush have waited so long is clear, it can only be for legal reasons. To admit it's a faulty product soon after the release could have proved costly...

 

If this was any other band except Rush, people here would be arguing in a different manner.

I actually think the main reason was the new Atlantic remasters. To have shiny remasters in the new box set with an old crusty VT would be a major faux pas. Thus, the perfect impetus to get that VT remix project off the back burner.

 

Legal reasons? Who in their right mind would sue Rush over VT?

 

 

 

Tony's right -- we Rush fans are a forgiving bunch (at least, I think that's what he was saying there). If you go back and recall conversations on Rush communities since 2002, I don't think many fans were threatening lawsuits to get VT redone -- they simply complained about the sound quality and said, "I hope they remaster it soon," and started hundreds of threads on multiple message boards debating on whether VT needed a remaster, a remix or even a re-recording of the original tracks. It's an album that didn't sound good, but it's a very important album in the band's history and most fans didn't take it beyond simply complaining about it.

 

Now it's 13 years after the fact. We can now get the remix for nine bucks or five pounds or whatever, and it's easier to spend that small amount of money than it would be to organize an official campaign to initiate a recall/exchange program that probably wouldn't produce any results -- and really, would that kind of effort be necessary? We're not talking about a defective child car seat. It's just a music CD.

 

You know I agree with most except the notion that it was deliberate. I think this was a very emotional album for the guys and they just recorded and mixed it as quickly as possible and then ran away from it on Tour. I think Neil wanted to get as far from this album as possible and now is the first time they had to actually deal with it and even then Neil had nothing to do with it. I just think they were to busy touring on the Vapor Trails Tour to actually give it a good listen and say " You know, this mix really sucks!" which probably happened after the tour was over. Anyway that's my two cents on that issue. Or maybe its all because of $$$ like TonyR stated.

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

 

Goobs gets mocked because he continually trolls the VT threads. If he's going to do that he's going to get crap for it in return. But I definitely agree with you that, in many of those threads, people are mentioning him before he even makes a post. It's a vicious cycle -- Goobs gets mentioned because of all the past times he's railed on against VT, and mentioning him in every new thread invites him to continue it.

 

And just to be clear, what Goobs is doing is not the end of the world, and not a serious problem that we mods are sitting down and discussing -- even though I think he'd like us to. It earns him a new member title once in a while, but that's it. :)

 

 

I would have been shocked had the mods sat down and discussed my feelings on VT!

 

We wouldn't be discussing your opinion of VT. It would be about your continued trolling of VT threads. But it isn't being discussed.

 

Yet.

[losingit2k]

Rush shouldn't be profiting on this remix. We originally paid for a cd that was spectacularly flawed. Why should we be subjected to pay for their mistakes, not once, but twice? Its a real disservice to fans, and incredibly presumptuous for them to expect us to pay for the renovation of their Grade A f*ck up.

 

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it?

Didn't think so.

 

You don't want to buy it again? Don't. Pretty simple.

 

I know I'm newer to the forum and it seems Gemini's opinions are always hated but I mean...I kind of see where he's coming from. On a moral standpoint. If you have some way to prove you own the original Vapor Trails copy, the most it we could deserve is half off or something.

 

I mean, we're major Rush fans, so a majority of us will buy almost anything they put out just because it's them. But I like Gemini's opinion on the matter.

 

I see Gemini's point too, but another way of looking at it is, Rush (and many other bands) put out remasters of their older albums all the time. Those of us who have the original versions can choose to stick with that version, or buy the remaster. In some of cases, the originals sound fine and perhaps didn't need a remaster, but bands will issue them anyway to try to get us to "buy it again." Like, my original copy of Counterparts sounds perfectly fine, and I saw no need to get the remaster. I'm not one who needs to collect every single version of every album, but some are into that, and those are the people Rush are marketing these repackaged/remastered albums to.

 

You have to figure Rush would have issued a remaster of VT at some point, and here we have it -- but it's not only remastered, but remixed as well. Yeah, it was remixed because they botched it up 13 years ago, but we're talking 13 years ago. Do we really deserve a discount on the remix based on us buying the original in 2002? How many of you still have the receipt from wherever you bought it 13 years ago? Think they'll give you a half-price Remixed CD if you submit a photo of yourself holding up the original one?

 

VT Remixed costs only $9.00 USD on Amazon right now. That's cheaper than a new copy of Clockwork Angels. $9.00 won't even put three gallons of gas in my car, but it'll get me a shiny new remixed version of one of my favorite Rush albums. In the grand scheme of things, nine bucks isn't a lot of money. Depends on how much you like Vapor Trails, and how much you like or don't like the sound of the original. You can choose to use that nine bucks on the remix, or on something else -- like a super-size meal at Burger King, or in some places, a pack of cigarettes.

What an outstanding rebuttal. There is no original VT remaster in addition to this. This is the remaster, with the bonus of a remix at no extra charge. I think this is what any questioner of Rush's integrity regarding VT Remix doesn't consider. And if anyone still has a problem, then they've got problems with every artist that has remastered or will remaster their catalog.

 

Right, it was a good one. But I was trying to make a point, as well. I bought the remix copy, as well, so I'm not saying I'm siding with Gemini or anything.

 

The point I was making is everyone on this forum gets so butthurt about an opinion a majority of the people here dislike. Goobs is a great example, you guys always get so crazy and mock him about constantly talking about how bad Vapor Trails is. Yet, you guys are the ones who bring it up every single time and instigate him to come out and defend himself. We all have different opinions, not one is better than yours or vise versa.

 

Now, I like where Gemini was coming from, I know in the business market it's an awful idea. I just liked it is all. The fact that it is 9 bucks is a steal, granted.

 

Goobs gets mocked because he continually trolls the VT threads. If he's going to do that he's going to get crap for it in return. But I definitely agree with you that, in many of those threads, people are mentioning him before he even makes a post. It's a vicious cycle -- Goobs gets mentioned because of all the past times he's railed on against VT, and mentioning him in every new thread invites him to continue it.

 

And just to be clear, what Goobs is doing is not the end of the world, and not a serious problem that we mods are sitting down and discussing -- even though I think he'd like us to. It earns him a new member title once in a while, but that's it. :)

 

 

I would have been shocked had the mods sat down and discussed my feelings on VT!

 

We wouldn't be discussing your opinion of VT. It would be about your continued trolling of VT threads. But it isn't being discussed.

 

Yet.

 

And it shouldn't be discussed. Goober is a pretty cool cat. He just hates VT and that ok. I hated COS for a while but not as much anymore. Maybe I'm more opened minded or I just actually gave it a chance and now I can listen to 3 tracks on it. Anyway Goober shouldn't be chastized due to his loathing of VT, he should just have his label changed from Good Ruse First to The VT Killer! At least through Halloween! :codger:

Edited September 26, 2013 by losingit2k