Phil Collins Genesis

[bathory]

you guys are so funny. they so OBVIOUSLY sold out. it's fine, they produced a lot of great music over the years, although admittedly with exponentially diminishing returns as time went on, but you don't go from where they were to where they ended up without selling out. there's no way they just naturally decided they wanted to go completely into the realm of pop music. they might have been sincere in their approach to it, but it was definitely motivated by money. not that there's anything really wrong with that, but let's call it what it is.

You don't think peoples' musical tastes change, or that they get disinterested in a particular structure within their work?

 

People can evolve without selling out. Drastically even. Do you consider Phil's ventures into big band music "selling out"?

 

all i can say is if someone's musical taste changes from beautiful complexity to short, boring, middle of the road, poppy, ultra-commercial and conventional, it's kind of sad IMHO.

Fir enough. I think as many people age - many musicians - the youthful energy & curiosity that is expressed through prog and other genres (like punk) wanes. For them, yet another effort of the same style is boring and cliche, whereas for them crafting a simple, melody-oriented song is more of a challenge.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if RUSH focused a bit more on memorable, singable melody once in a while.

 

I think Rush HAS done that. Tom Sawyer, Limelight, Closer to the Heart, Subdivisions, Dreamline, Far Cry, Lakeside Park, etc. They've had some GREAT melodies, but they kept their intelligence and musical complexity even in the shorter, more melodic tunes. Rush have had TONS of melodic songs over the years that are very singable.

I meant in recent years. There are good songs, but few are singable like the ones you mentioned. :)

 

Earthshine is perhaps the closest to a melodic chorus is a long time. (Couldn't resist :poke: )

 

plenty of tunes off the new record are singable!

[rushgoober]

you guys are so funny. they so OBVIOUSLY sold out. it's fine, they produced a lot of great music over the years, although admittedly with exponentially diminishing returns as time went on, but you don't go from where they were to where they ended up without selling out. there's no way they just naturally decided they wanted to go completely into the realm of pop music. they might have been sincere in their approach to it, but it was definitely motivated by money. not that there's anything really wrong with that, but let's call it what it is.

You don't think peoples' musical tastes change, or that they get disinterested in a particular structure within their work?

 

People can evolve without selling out. Drastically even. Do you consider Phil's ventures into big band music "selling out"?

 

all i can say is if someone's musical taste changes from beautiful complexity to short, boring, middle of the road, poppy, ultra-commercial and conventional, it's kind of sad IMHO.

Fir enough. I think as many people age - many musicians - the youthful energy & curiosity that is expressed through prog and other genres (like punk) wanes. For them, yet another effort of the same style is boring and cliche, whereas for them crafting a simple, melody-oriented song is more of a challenge.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if RUSH focused a bit more on memorable, singable melody once in a while.

 

I think Rush HAS done that. Tom Sawyer, Limelight, Closer to the Heart, Subdivisions, Dreamline, Far Cry, Lakeside Park, etc. They've had some GREAT melodies, but they kept their intelligence and musical complexity even in the shorter, more melodic tunes. Rush have had TONS of melodic songs over the years that are very singable.

I meant in recent years. There are good songs, but few are singable like the ones you mentioned. :)

 

Earthshine is perhaps the closest to a melodic chorus is a long time. (Couldn't resist :poke: )

 

plenty of tunes off the new record are singable!

 

and off of S&A

[Lerxster]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

I really hit my Genesis stride with Three Sides Live. I believe that was the current album out when Genesis shot up to a top 3 group for me (although it might have been abacab.. it was so long ago). I knew every syllable of Phils singing on 3SL. The shapes, or Genesis, LP was my first new Genesis studio release. Great album. I also got heavily into the PG albums and loved them. TLLDOB blew my mind.

 

Invisible Touch was fun to make fun of, the song at least. That was not too shabby of an album. I thought We Can't Dance sort of nudged them back toward more prog, and was a solid effort. I bought Calling All Stations when that was released, thinking it would be way more proggy without Phil. I was wrong. And after a smelting accident.. er, uh, no.. some heavy object fell on it and cracked it (it was an accident, honest), and I never felt like replacing it so I haven't heard that one in a while.

 

Over the years, Genesis as a band has slid down my list of favorite bands. I don't listen to them much anymore, but I do love Genesis. I'd seen them a few times- they were always so great live. Too bad PG is still too weird to have a proper reunion. I guess that'll never happen now, with Phil's health issues. Kind of like the proper Pink Floyd reunion that never happened, and now it's waaaay too late. What is it with these English-types, eh?

[bathory]

gabriel probably just doesnt feel like wearing a dress and a fox mask anymore

[Maverick]

While I enjoy quite a bit of the Phil era in terms of the studio albums, I really enjoyed Phil singing the Peter era stuff. Seconds Out and Three Sides Live are tremendous live albums. The big medley of In the Cage, Cinema Show, Slippermen, and Afterglow is one of my favorite things to listen to, ever.

[rushgoober]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

[treeduck]

The Phil-era is the hard rock and heavy metal era of Genesis...

 

[Lerxster]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

C'mon man. You could have posted the real video:

 

http://youtu.be/r0qBaBb1Y-U

 

About as funky as you'll ever hear Phil. Fun tune.

 

And, [archiebunker]listen you![/archiebunker] I said Banks and Rutherford deserve credit for the band's direction. The band that wrote Down and Out is the same band that wrote Invisible Touch. Now stifle yourself!

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

 

Sussudio, TUNE! Love that one. If it was 15 minutes long with a flugelhorn solo in the middle, Goobs would be all over it. Of all the snobs in the music world, the prog snob is the worst. Wink, sigh, etc.

[rushgoober]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

C'mon man. You could have posted the real video:

 

http://youtu.be/r0qBaBb1Y-U

 

About as funky as you'll ever hear Phil. Fun tune.

 

And, [archiebunker]listen you![/archiebunker] I said Banks and Rutherford deserve credit for the band's direction. The band that wrote Down and Out is the same band that wrote Invisible Touch. Now stifle yourself!

 

I almost used the real video, but the versions I found either had a 30 second commercial or was this one with a long intro part before the music started - I wanted to make my point without trying people's patience. ;)

 

Anyway, Genesis had some great tunes post-prog era, but they really did sell out.

[rushgoober]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

 

Sussudio, TUNE! Love that one. If it was 15 minutes long with a flugelhorn solo in the middle, Goobs would be all over it. Of all the snobs in the music world, the prog snob is the worst. Wink, sigh, etc.

 

Songs of great length aren't necessarily prog - that just sounds like torture! And if you love the song and/or pop-era Genesis, you're more than entitled, and I'm glad you enjoy it. Still, it's obvious the band succumbed to going after the almighty dollar at the expense of musical integrity, at least some of the time. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, just telling it like it is.

 

Look at Yes - yeah, they had some poppy tunes on 90125 and Big Generator, but they were still them for the most part, and yeah much of their music after that was kinda sucky, but at least they never really sold out other than the sacrilege of using tribute band singers to replace Jon Anderson. :sarcastic:

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

 

Sussudio, TUNE! Love that one. If it was 15 minutes long with a flugelhorn solo in the middle, Goobs would be all over it. Of all the snobs in the music world, the prog snob is the worst. Wink, sigh, etc.

 

Songs of great length aren't necessarily prog - that just sounds like torture! And if you love the song and/or pop-era Genesis, you're more than entitled, and I'm glad you enjoy it. Still, it's obvious the band succumbed to going after the almighty dollar at the expense of musical integrity, at least some of the time. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, just telling it like it is.

 

Look at Yes - yeah, they had some poppy tunes on 90125 and Big Generator, but they were still them for the most part, and yeah much of their music after that was kinda sucky, but at least they never really sold out other than the sacrilege of using tribute band singers to replace Jon Anderson. :sarcastic:

 

 

 

 

"they were still them for the most part" Were they f**k. 90125 & Big Generator are Yes' Invisible Touch & We Can't Dance. Big shiny slabs of chart friendly AOR, and I love them all. About as prog as Foreigner. And, I've no desire to start going over the whole selling out malarkey again, but most artists sell out(not a bad thing), the desire for money & fame does that to you. It's a natural progression. You spend your formative years struggling and starving for your art, living in the back of a van, playing to 2 men and a sheep in a pub in Doncaster. Extreme circumstances can make great art, but you also dream of mansions & money. Also, I would imagine when you discover the formula for writing catchy tunes for the majority and the money starts to roll in, your desire to write long and windy noodly epics for the minority wanes fairly rapidly.

 

Back to Yes, Chris Squire sold the soul of Yes years ago, for a Big Mac & a bucket of greasy chicken. And Yes has always been about the money.

[Lerxster]

I almost used the real video, but the versions I found either had a 30 second commercial or was this one with a long intro part before the music started - I wanted to make my point without trying people's patience. ;)

 

Anyway, Genesis had some great tunes post-prog era, but they really did sell out.

 

Well, you've accused Rush of selling out before so I figure, "What does he know?" ;)

 

[rushgoober]

I almost used the real video, but the versions I found either had a 30 second commercial or was this one with a long intro part before the music started - I wanted to make my point without trying people's patience. ;)

 

Anyway, Genesis had some great tunes post-prog era, but they really did sell out.

 

Well, you've accused Rush of selling out before so I figure, "What does he know?" ;)

 

 

I've NEVER said that Rush sold out musically. I think they made some bad choices musically, but it was all stuff that they thought was good at the time (even though they were wrong ;) ). The only times they sold out is by touring not in support of a new album, or going on unnecessary 2nd legs of tours just to cash in as opposed to making new albums. As far as I'm concerned, however, the great S&A and the excellent CA more than made up for it. Yeah, they still have 4 mediocre to bad albums, but at least they didn't ever sacrifice their musical integrity.

[rushgoober]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

 

Sussudio, TUNE! Love that one. If it was 15 minutes long with a flugelhorn solo in the middle, Goobs would be all over it. Of all the snobs in the music world, the prog snob is the worst. Wink, sigh, etc.

 

Songs of great length aren't necessarily prog - that just sounds like torture! And if you love the song and/or pop-era Genesis, you're more than entitled, and I'm glad you enjoy it. Still, it's obvious the band succumbed to going after the almighty dollar at the expense of musical integrity, at least some of the time. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, just telling it like it is.

 

Look at Yes - yeah, they had some poppy tunes on 90125 and Big Generator, but they were still them for the most part, and yeah much of their music after that was kinda sucky, but at least they never really sold out other than the sacrilege of using tribute band singers to replace Jon Anderson. :sarcastic:

 

 

 

 

"they were still them for the most part" Were they f**k. 90125 & Big Generator are Yes' Invisible Touch & We Can't Dance. Big shiny slabs of chart friendly AOR, and I love them all. About as prog as Foreigner.

 

I know that Yes lost a lot of their progginess on 90125 & Big Generator, but I don't fault them for that. Hell, Rush went from prog nirvana to much shorter, catchier songs. Seriously though, comparing the poppiness of those two Yes albums to Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance is silly. Genesis went WAY farther into the realms of pop nonsense than Yes ever came close to. If you like it, great, but they sold out to a huge degree compared to Yes. And then Yes went back to prog. Genesis just kept going deeper and deeper until they were in too deep ( ;) ) .

Edited March 24, 2013 by rushgoober

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

I love Phil-era Genesis, although I love the PG era too. Phil is so unfairly blamed for the pop element in latter day Genesis. Tony and Mike deserve credit for that. Those albums were group efforts. Tony and Mike were not Phil's sidemen.

 

You're absolutely right. If it were only up to Phil, he would have stayed with hardcore prog all the way, as demonstrated in his solo albums. Here's a fine example of what post-PG Genesis could have been if Tony and Mike hadn't been such dominating pop monsters! Oh, what could have been... :sigh:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9xNhcvZ6UI

 

;)

 

 

Sussudio, TUNE! Love that one. If it was 15 minutes long with a flugelhorn solo in the middle, Goobs would be all over it. Of all the snobs in the music world, the prog snob is the worst. Wink, sigh, etc.

 

Songs of great length aren't necessarily prog - that just sounds like torture! And if you love the song and/or pop-era Genesis, you're more than entitled, and I'm glad you enjoy it. Still, it's obvious the band succumbed to going after the almighty dollar at the expense of musical integrity, at least some of the time. I'm not even saying that's a bad thing, just telling it like it is.

 

Look at Yes - yeah, they had some poppy tunes on 90125 and Big Generator, but they were still them for the most part, and yeah much of their music after that was kinda sucky, but at least they never really sold out other than the sacrilege of using tribute band singers to replace Jon Anderson. :sarcastic:

 

 

 

 

"they were still them for the most part" Were they f**k. 90125 & Big Generator are Yes' Invisible Touch & We Can't Dance. Big shiny slabs of chart friendly AOR, and I love them all. About as prog as Foreigner.

 

I know that Yes lost a lot of their progginess on 90125 & Big Generator, but I don't fault them for that. Hell, Rush went from prog nirvana to much shorter, catchier songs. Seriously though, comparing the poppiness of those two Yes albums to Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance is silly. Genesis went WAY farther into the realms of pop nonsense than Yes ever came close to. If you like it, great, but they sold out to a huge degree compared to Yes. And then Yes went back to prog. Genesis just kept going deeper and deeper until they were in too deep ( ;) ) .

 

Not silly at all, both are filled with pop classics. What lets the Genesis efforts down are the ballads, they're f***ing awful. It was hard for Genesis to go back to prog, seeing as they split up. (I'm not including Calling All Stations, as it's shite, without Phil they were clueless)

 

Tunes like Leave It, Our Song, Love Will Find A Way, Owner, Rhythm of Love, they're pop, just like Land of Confusion & IT. And subsequent Yes albums had token prog moments(Homeworld), granted, but a lot of fluff too. Those reggae bollocks songs on The Ladder, all of Open Your Eyes, most of Union, risible nonsense by a band that once set the standard.

[ReRushed]

I LOVE Abacab!

 

Replace the dreadful "Who Dunnit?" with either "Paperlate" or "You Might Recall" and you'd have a masterpiece.

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

I LOVE Abacab!

 

Replace the dreadful "Who Dunnit?" with either "Paperlate" or "You Might Recall" and you'd have a masterpiece.

 

f*ckin' A!!!! Listen to what the man said.

[ColdFireYYZ]

I've always liked Duke but never really bothered playing it. I listened to it last week, and was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. It's now up there with Genesis's best for me. Can't believe I've practically ignored it for so long; it's a great blend of their old prog sound and the pop direction they were moving towards.

[Hatchetaxe&saw]

I've always liked Duke but never really bothered playing it. I listened to it last week, and was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. It's now up there with Genesis's best for me. Can't believe I've practically ignored it for so long; it's a great blend of their old prog sound and the pop direction they were moving towards.

 

Duke is fabulous. A perfect blend of old & new.

 

SUKITFILHATURZ!

[Powderfinger]

I've always liked Duke but never really bothered playing it. I listened to it last week, and was surprised by how much I enjoyed it. It's now up there with Genesis's best for me. Can't believe I've practically ignored it for so long; it's a great blend of their old prog sound and the pop direction they were moving towards.

 

I too have finally begun enjoying Duke. If you brush the Peter Gabriel-era aside momentarily (not easy to do, I know... one of my five favorite groups all time), and allow And Then There Were Three... and Duke to take on a life of their own, in seclusion from early-Genesis's legacy, they are actually incredibly enjoyable albums with great musicianship and melodies, albeit of a different fashion. Those two albums are not bad. Rather, they have been overwhelmed by what came before and after in the group's larger catalog. Duke does seem somewhat popular with fans, and definitely popular with the band, but I still think both of those albums deserve revised criticism.

[ReRushed]

I love the fact that there are bascially two eras to Genesis. It's a wonderfully eclectic array of popular music. Personally, I prefer Genesis when Phil Collins took over the lead singing. Sometimes I think progheads don't realize how hard it is to write a good pop song. Listening to a good pop song can be just as challenging and rewarding as listening to a prog epic. "No Reply at All" KICKS ASS!

[ColdFireYYZ]

I'm not too familiar with And Then There Were Three. I have it and I've listened to it, but I don't really remember much about it. Been meaning to play it actually, but haven't gotten around to it, for whatever reason.

 

I really enjoy the majority of the Collins era (except for Invisible Touch, which I don't have). There's a lot of great material, even on the weaker albums like We Can't Dance (Fading Lights being the most notable). I don't even bother trying to compare the Gabriel-era with the Collins-era. The early stuff was great for complex and symphonic prog, and the later period was great for well-written pop music.

[ColdFireYYZ]

Sometimes I think progheads don't realize how hard it is to write a good pop song. Listening to a good pop song can be just as challenging and rewarding as listening to a prog epic. "No Reply at All" KICKS ASS!

Agreed, though I could do without the horns in No Reply at All.

[ReRushed]

Sometimes I think progheads don't realize how hard it is to write a good pop song. Listening to a good pop song can be just as challenging and rewarding as listening to a prog epic. "No Reply at All" KICKS ASS!

Agreed, though I could do without the horns in No Reply at All.

 

All I am saying is give horns a chance.