Great Songs...but..

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 22 2012, 02:46 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 22 2012, 02:39 PM) Her's an image from the Loudness Wars site depicting the dynamic ranges of various albums over the past 40 years. Green is good, red is bad obviously. And check out where CA appears on the DR chart. Note that vinyl version looks MUCH more promising. http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=Rush stunning really........   No wonder why so many like the "original" sonic representation of Power Windows, Permanent Waves, Signals, ....etc...   You can really see how it gets worse with each new mix/master.   Unbelievable.

[vespa2112]

[Two0neOneTwo]

[bobkalka]

A simple, unscientific observation - I'm a longtime (rock) musician who has a reasonably nice (German) car stereo that I've played 1000s of tunes through. As many of you probably do with yours, I've been able to find the 'sweet spot' of this stereo for what plays through it...in this case, Bass between 8-10 and Treble between 9-10 is that spot.

 

There are two situations where those settings sound unmusicial - frankly horrible:

 

* most of the recent (decade or so) King's X CDs - dUg stuffs his bass so loud and heavy in the mix that the stereo keels over in submission...have to pull it back to Bass 7 Treble 9.

 

* Clockwork Angels. It is not musical until I dial it all the way back to Bass 5 Treble 7. Even at that level, at times when Ged's bass pedals kick it it still starts distorting.

 

Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the tunes on CA, and I've seen the band about 20 times between the last four tours, so I'm a Rush apologist - they're my band. But (at least) the mastering is just simply BAD here. In fact, I had to laugh at that notice that Billy Corgan and Ged are going to do some interview where they talk about the' loudness wars' - wouldn't that be a trip to hear Ged say 'uh...the 'Big Bass' dude is example #1.'

 

I also have a project recording studio, and when I heard CA through my iphone with good headphones - and after my musician son listened and commented how distorted it was - I was reminded of my amateur efforts with mastering plug-ins for the first year or two - it's really not hard to make music sound this harsh at 'normal' settings.

 

I've seen the arguments that 'hey dude, just dial the EQ back and stop whining', but that doesn't do it for me - it's still less musical.

 

Bring on the vinyl, I hear that mix is better!

 

Peace...

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (bobkalka @ Jun 23 2012, 09:33 AM)

A simple, unscientific observation - I'm a longtime (rock) musician who has a reasonably nice (German) car stereo that I've played 1000s of tunes through. As many of you probably do with yours, I've been able to find the 'sweet spot' of this stereo for what plays through it...in this case, Bass between 8-10 and Treble between 9-10 is that spot. There are two situations where those settings sound unmusicial - frankly horrible: * most of the recent (decade or so) King's X CDs - dUg stuffs his bass so loud and heavy in the mix that the stereo keels over in submission...have to pull it back to Bass 7 Treble 9. * Clockwork Angels. It is not musical until I dial it all the way back to Bass 5 Treble 7. Even at that level, at times when Ged's bass pedals kick it it still starts distorting. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE the tunes on CA, and I've seen the band about 20 times between the last four tours, so I'm a Rush apologist - they're my band. But (at least) the mastering is just simply BAD here. In fact, I had to laugh at that notice that Billy Corgan and Ged are going to do some interview where they talk about the' loudness wars' - wouldn't that be a trip to hear Ged say 'uh...the 'Big Bass' dude is example #1.' I also have a project recording studio, and when I heard CA through my iphone with good headphones - and after my musician son listened and commented how distorted it was - I was reminded of my amateur efforts with mastering plug-ins for the first year or two - it's really not hard to make music sound this harsh at 'normal' settings. I've seen the arguments that 'hey dude, just dial the EQ back and stop whining', but that doesn't do it for me - it's still less musical. Bring on the vinyl, I hear that mix is better! Peace...

What we need is a technical breakdown of the Vinyl vs the cd.

 

Seems to me, there shouldn't be that much of a difference since I don't "think" a separate master/mix was done.

 

Like I said before, PLACEBO effect.

 

I could be wrong.

[vespa2112]

From part II of the Geddy Lee / Billy Corgan interview.

Specifically the part about Loudness Wars

Let's talk about the sonic choices you have to make these days when recording an album, and really this goes into the mastering. Both of your albums have great dynamic range, something that is missing from a lot of music now that people are mastering for digital downloads.

Geddy Lee: "Yeah, mastering is a dangerous thing. You know, you go through the history of music, and mastering was a supposed to be a way to get your music onto vinyl without [the needle] skipping. And then the role of the mastering engineer took on such a distorted sense of importance. As music turned to digital and suddenly you had the possibility to make things louder than loudest, which boggles the mind but it's true, and what you have are all kinds of different ways of distorting your music.

 

"Then it becomes a game of 'this person's record is this loud,' so how can I possibly produce a record that is not that loud and actually has dynamics? It's a fight. It's a battle between record company, between producer and between mastering engineer. Because the louder you make your record in a digital process, the more dynamics are squished out of it. Nobody knows exactly what happens, but the dynamics in the performance disappear, and everything is at the same volume.

 

"With us, it's always a matter of compromise. We say, 'Yeah, you can make it loud, but at the point where I feel the dynamics are going away, then stop. Stop making it loud.' [laughs] But you know, it's a strange, strange part of the process now."

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 25 2012, 04:18 PM)

From part II of the Geddy Lee / Billy Corgan interview. Specifically the part about Loudness Wars Let's talk about the sonic choices you have to make these days when recording an album, and really this goes into the mastering. Both of your albums have great dynamic range, something that is missing from a lot of music now that people are mastering for digital downloads. Geddy Lee: "Yeah, mastering is a dangerous thing. You know, you go through the history of music, and mastering was a supposed to be a way to get your music onto vinyl without [the needle] skipping. And then the role of the mastering engineer took on such a distorted sense of importance. As music turned to digital and suddenly you had the possibility to make things louder than loudest, which boggles the mind but it's true, and what you have are all kinds of different ways of distorting your music. "Then it becomes a game of 'this person's record is this loud,' so how can I possibly produce a record that is not that loud and actually has dynamics? It's a fight. It's a battle between record company, between producer and between mastering engineer. Because the louder you make your record in a digital process, the more dynamics are squished out of it. Nobody knows exactly what happens, but the dynamics in the performance disappear, and everything is at the same volume. "With us, it's always a matter of compromise. We say, 'Yeah, you can make it loud, but at the point where I feel the dynamics are going away, then stop. Stop making it loud.' [laughs] But you know, it's a strange, strange part of the process now."

That is an OMG!, WTF! response.

So, they all realize it, yet let it happen anyway?

 

Lord help us, when even Rush seems to not care what is happening to their albums. Cause that what this sounds like.

I mean really, to say "Please stop when the dynamics are being ruined" is all the control they have?

 

For the love of the watchmaker i wish the boys would really get into this more and really explain the process.

 

The next time "some" of you guys and gals think us whiners about the mix/mastering are blowing smoke, just read what Ged said.

 

Edited to Add......I really hope we get some pre-mastered out takes from the studio sessions.

I wanna hear what this album was supposed to sound like.

 

 

 

grrrrr.........

Edited June 25, 2012 by Two0neOneTwo

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

The process is fairly simple.

 

In Rush's case they are involved heavily with the recording and mixing process (Ged and Alex more so than Neil). I am sure they mix a song then take a version home to listen in their known environments then tweak and compromise until a mix is agreed upon. After the individual song mixes are done then the mixes get handed to a Mastering engineer.

 

Like Geddy says above initially a mastering engineer was the guy who put the tape onto a disc that would be called a Master that would go to the manufacturing plant for production. Mastering would take place in real-time as the disc was cut with a lathe, the disc being made of acetate which is a kind of plastic that is harder than vinyl. The Acetate master would then be used to create a mold for pressing the hot vinyl into records. A mastering engineer could control how deep the grooves in the record were (deeper is better) and if he got too deep it was possible to make a hole through the grooves, then he would have to start over. In the case of LPs the mastering engineer also made sure that song to song level was approximate as well as prevent needles/styli from skipping due to heavy bass which is where heavy compression and limiting came into play.

 

These days a mastering engineer is supposed to make sure that song to song levels are approximate but ideally a master shouldn't sound too different from the original mixes. Unfortunately this is no longer the case as record companies think that louder equals more sales, when it does not.

 

This album is far beyond the damage of destroying dynamic range. Too bad too.

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 25 2012, 05:07 PM)

The process is fairly simple. In Rush's case they are involved heavily with the recording and mixing process (Ged and Alex more so than Neil). I am sure they mix a song then take a version home to listen in their known environments then tweak and compromise until a mix is agreed upon. After the individual song mixes are done then the mixes get handed to a Mastering engineer. Like Geddy says above initially a mastering engineer was the guy who put the tape onto a disc that would be called a Master that would go to the manufacturing plant for production. Mastering would take place in real-time as the disc was cut with a lathe, the disc being made of acetate which is a kind of plastic that is harder than vinyl. The Acetate master would then be used to create a mold for pressing the hot vinyl into records. A mastering engineer could control how deep the grooves in the record were (deeper is better) and if he got too deep it was possible to make a hole through the grooves, then he would have to start over. In the case of LPs the mastering engineer also made sure that song to song level was approximate as well as prevent needles/styli from skipping due to heavy bass which is where heavy compression and limiting came into play. These days a mastering engineer is supposed to make sure that song to song levels are approximate but ideally a master shouldn't sound too different from the original mixes. Unfortunately this is no longer the case as record companies think that louder equals more sales, when it does not. This album is far beyond the damage of destroying dynamic range. Too bad too.

SO the question I have then is, there must a "pre-unmastered mix" that can be re-done right?

 

How Hard could it be to just do it all over again? I realize in the wake VT might be difficult for an official release but how bout a boot?

 

Let the damn mix loose and give others a shot.

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 25 2012, 03:29 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 25 2012, 05:07 PM) The process is fairly simple. In Rush's case they are involved heavily with the recording and mixing process (Ged and Alex more so than Neil). I am sure they mix a song then take a version home to listen in their known environments then tweak and compromise until a mix is agreed upon. After the individual song mixes are done then the mixes get handed to a Mastering engineer. Like Geddy says above initially a mastering engineer was the guy who put the tape onto a disc that would be called a Master that would go to the manufacturing plant for production. Mastering would take place in real-time as the disc was cut with a lathe, the disc being made of acetate which is a kind of plastic that is harder than vinyl. The Acetate master would then be used to create a mold for pressing the hot vinyl into records. A mastering engineer could control how deep the grooves in the record were (deeper is better) and if he got too deep it was possible to make a hole through the grooves, then he would have to start over. In the case of LPs the mastering engineer also made sure that song to song level was approximate as well as prevent needles/styli from skipping due to heavy bass which is where heavy compression and limiting came into play. These days a mastering engineer is supposed to make sure that song to song levels are approximate but ideally a master shouldn't sound too different from the original mixes. Unfortunately this is no longer the case as record companies think that louder equals more sales, when it does not. This album is far beyond the damage of destroying dynamic range. Too bad too. SO the question I have then is, there must a "pre-unmastered mix" that can be re-done right?   How Hard could it be to just do it all over again? I realize in the wake VT might be difficult for an official release but how bout a boot?   Let the damn mix loose and give others a shot. there's a couple of things i would change about the actual mixes as well

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 25 2012, 05:33 PM)

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 25 2012, 03:29 PM) QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 25 2012, 05:07 PM) The process is fairly simple. In Rush's case they are involved heavily with the recording and mixing process (Ged and Alex more so than Neil). I am sure they mix a song then take a version home to listen in their known environments then tweak and compromise until a mix is agreed upon. After the individual song mixes are done then the mixes get handed to a Mastering engineer. Like Geddy says above initially a mastering engineer was the guy who put the tape onto a disc that would be called a Master that would go to the manufacturing plant for production. Mastering would take place in real-time as the disc was cut with a lathe, the disc being made of acetate which is a kind of plastic that is harder than vinyl. The Acetate master would then be used to create a mold for pressing the hot vinyl into records. A mastering engineer could control how deep the grooves in the record were (deeper is better) and if he got too deep it was possible to make a hole through the grooves, then he would have to start over. In the case of LPs the mastering engineer also made sure that song to song level was approximate as well as prevent needles/styli from skipping due to heavy bass which is where heavy compression and limiting came into play. These days a mastering engineer is supposed to make sure that song to song levels are approximate but ideally a master shouldn't sound too different from the original mixes. Unfortunately this is no longer the case as record companies think that louder equals more sales, when it does not. This album is far beyond the damage of destroying dynamic range. Too bad too. SO the question I have then is, there must a "pre-unmastered mix" that can be re-done right?   How Hard could it be to just do it all over again? I realize in the wake VT might be difficult for an official release but how bout a boot?   Let the damn mix loose and give others a shot. there's a couple of things i would change about the actual mixes as well That is a wish I hope comes true.   I'm slowly getting the feeling that CA is falling off my radar. Its just to hard to listen to.   I went through CoS to CA over the weekend and I can tell you, the noise of Counter Parts to CA is exactly what bugs me. It was increasing. Its just not as nice to listen to. Whatever the reason.   Those older albums may not have as "good songs" but those songs certainly sounded better.   Ah well.   The ride was over at Presto. I just didn't know it.

[vespa2112]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 22 2012, 01:52 PM)

I just found this quote from Marketwire.com: ""CLOCKWORK ANGELS" has been mastered specifically for iTunes format in mind, ensuring the delivery of the music to listeners with increased audio fidelity, more closely replicating what the artists, recording engineers, and producers intended. " Are they f-ing serious? http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/ru...ong-1648190.htm

Ok, in response to "[CA] has been mastered specifically for iTunes format in mind"

 

The exact U.S. figures were a total of 104,707 units sold with LP (Vinyl) sales of 2,361, CD sales of 72,007, and digital sales of 30,339.

Canadian sales numbers were 19,625 units sold with LP (Vinyl) sales of 367, CD sales of 14,311, and digital sales of 4,947.

(sidebar note: WTF is wrong with Canada? Still have Bieber Fever?)

 

Digital: 35286 / Non Digital: 124332

So this means it was specifically mastered for less than 40% of the people who bought it. And who makes that decision?

 

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 27 2012, 09:45 AM)

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 22 2012, 01:52 PM) I just found this quote from Marketwire.com: ""CLOCKWORK ANGELS" has been mastered specifically for iTunes format in mind, ensuring the delivery of the music to listeners with increased audio fidelity, more closely replicating what the artists, recording engineers, and producers intended. " Are they f-ing serious? http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/ru...ong-1648190.htm Ok, in response to "[CA] has been mastered specifically for iTunes format in mind"   The exact U.S. figures were a total of 104,707 units sold with LP (Vinyl) sales of 2,361, CD sales of 72,007, and digital sales of 30,339. Canadian sales numbers were 19,625 units sold with LP (Vinyl) sales of 367, CD sales of 14,311, and digital sales of 4,947. (sidebar note: WTF is wrong with Canada? Still have Bieber Fever?)   Digital: 35286 / Non Digital: 124332 So this means it was specifically mastered for less than 40% of the people who bought it. And who makes that decision? That's one way to look at it.   However (I'm NOT defending here) but do those numbers include individual song downloads at 1.19 a piece?   I think the idea is that those cd sales are going peter out and its the long term Single Itune downloads that will gradually increase as more people who are NOT rush fans will choose to download one or two songs but not the entire thing.   But your right, specifically mastering/mixing for Itunes is incredible.   Incredibly stupid.

[vespa2112]

If anyone REALLY wants to get technical about it, this is a great read. They even mention about remastering all the Rush catalog.

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/04/does-...it-to-the-test/

[Chicken hawk]

Every bit of their music always sounds good to me.

[Ged Lent's sis]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 25 2012, 04:18 PM)

From part II of the Geddy Lee / Billy Corgan interview. Specifically the part about Loudness Wars Let's talk about the sonic choices you have to make these days when recording an album, and really this goes into the mastering. Both of your albums have great dynamic range, something that is missing from a lot of music now that people are mastering for digital downloads. Geddy Lee: "Yeah, mastering is a dangerous thing. You know, you go through the history of music, and mastering was a supposed to be a way to get your music onto vinyl without [the needle] skipping. And then the role of the mastering engineer took on such a distorted sense of importance. As music turned to digital and suddenly you had the possibility to make things louder than loudest, which boggles the mind but it's true, and what you have are all kinds of different ways of distorting your music. "Then it becomes a game of 'this person's record is this loud,' so how can I possibly produce a record that is not that loud and actually has dynamics? It's a fight. It's a battle between record company, between producer and between mastering engineer. Because the louder you make your record in a digital process, the more dynamics are squished out of it. Nobody knows exactly what happens, but the dynamics in the performance disappear, and everything is at the same volume. "With us, it's always a matter of compromise. We say, 'Yeah, you can make it loud, but at the point where I feel the dynamics are going away, then stop. Stop making it loud.' [laughs] But you know, it's a strange, strange part of the process now."

It seems pretty clear from Ged's, I'd say, (re)strained answer that the band have less control over this issue than one'd want and that they are not entirely pleased with the result. Also, the interviewer's framing of the question with the gratuitous "Both of your albums have great dynamic range..." is deceiving:

Just because it has quiet moments, does not mean it has great dynamic range.

 

From the same interview:

QUOTE (http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/geddy-lee-and-billy-corgan-on-concept-albums-jamming-singing-and-more-550329)

Lee: "It makes your music relentless. With a band like us, we're relentless enough. [laughs] We need to relent sometimes." [everybody laughs]

Everybody but many on this thread, including me, that is. It is a telling comment:

I reckon that the last thing this album needed (with the mix it already had) was any help in the loudness department.

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (Ged Lent's sis @ Jun 27 2012, 11:56 AM)

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jun 25 2012, 04:18 PM) From part II of the Geddy Lee / Billy Corgan interview. Specifically the part about Loudness Wars Let's talk about the sonic choices you have to make these days when recording an album, and really this goes into the mastering. Both of your albums have great dynamic range, something that is missing from a lot of music now that people are mastering for digital downloads. Geddy Lee: "Yeah, mastering is a dangerous thing. You know, you go through the history of music, and mastering was a supposed to be a way to get your music onto vinyl without [the needle] skipping. And then the role of the mastering engineer took on such a distorted sense of importance. As music turned to digital and suddenly you had the possibility to make things louder than loudest, which boggles the mind but it's true, and what you have are all kinds of different ways of distorting your music. "Then it becomes a game of 'this person's record is this loud,' so how can I possibly produce a record that is not that loud and actually has dynamics? It's a fight. It's a battle between record company, between producer and between mastering engineer. Because the louder you make your record in a digital process, the more dynamics are squished out of it. Nobody knows exactly what happens, but the dynamics in the performance disappear, and everything is at the same volume. "With us, it's always a matter of compromise. We say, 'Yeah, you can make it loud, but at the point where I feel the dynamics are going away, then stop. Stop making it loud.' [laughs] But you know, it's a strange, strange part of the process now." It seems pretty clear from Ged's, I'd say, (re)strained answer that the band have less control over this issue than one'd want and that they are not entirely pleased with the result. Also, the interviewer's framing of the question with the gratuitous "Both of your albums have great dynamic range..." is deceiving: Just because it has quiet moments, does not mean it has great dynamic range.   From the same interview: QUOTE (http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/geddy-lee-and-billy-corgan-on-concept-albums-jamming-singing-and-more-550329) Lee: "It makes your music relentless. With a band like us, we're relentless enough. [laughs] We need to relent sometimes." [everybody laughs] Everybody but many on this thread, including me, that is. It is a telling comment: I reckon that the last thing this album needed (with the mix it already had) was any help in the loudness department. Exactly.   After one turns up the volume, the last few albums DO become relentless. I think Geds comments are also quite telling. He has nailed right on the money WHAT HAS HAPPENED since CP.   They need to put the volume control back in the hands of the fans. The way it is now, you can only turn it down. Turn up and risk a headache. (Not because the music is bad) but because as GED says; "Nobody knows exactly what happens, but the dynamics in the performance disappear, and everything is at the same volume."   They know, and if they know and it still happens, then Rush does not have the Passe-Partout that they once cherished.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

I belong to a couple of pro audio forums. One member at one of them bought the vinyl version to compare to the digital version. He says that while the LP does sound better than the CD there is still considerable distortion, which supports the notion that Nick's mix is less than clean, which also could mean that tracking was poorly done (recording of each individual part). Really too bad. I think Geddy's statement above says a lot too. They know they're getting smashed to sh!t.

[The K Man]

Is there a way for those with the vinyl to rip them to mp3s? I'd love to hear what the vinyl sounds like, but I don't have a record player anymore.

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 27 2012, 11:17 AM)

I belong to a couple of pro audio forums. One member at one of them bought the vinyl version to compare to the digital version. He says that while the LP does sound better than the CD there is still considerable distortion, which supports the notion that Nick's mix is less than clean, which also could mean that tracking was poorly done (recording of each individual part). Really too bad. I think Geddy's statement above says a lot too. They know they're getting smashed to sh!t.

 

People are complaining about the mastering, but I can tell alot of the problems are with the actual mix. Yes I'm talking to you Raskulinecz.

 

 

[Two0neOneTwo]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 27 2012, 01:46 PM)

QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Jun 27 2012, 11:17 AM) I belong to a couple of pro audio forums. One member at one of them bought the vinyl version to compare to the digital version. He says that while the LP does sound better than the CD there is still considerable distortion, which supports the notion that Nick's mix is less than clean, which also could mean that tracking was poorly done (recording of each individual part). Really too bad. I think Geddy's statement above says a lot too. They know they're getting smashed to sh!t.   People are complaining about the mastering, but I can tell alot of the problems are with the actual mix. Yes I'm talking to you Raskulinecz. I agree.....At first I thought the mix was the least of concern but now after some really heady investigation the Mix was also pretty spotty.   Alex's guitar, especially the "sculpted parts" are much to "In yo face". On the couple of tracks where its just Neil and Ged playing, it doesn't sound so bad. Once Alex jumps in I notice a very annoying harshness/ loudness for his "background" parts.   Sorry Big Al, but its the truth.   Neil is also reduced to rubble on occasion, especially the parts when he is playing more than one tom at a time. Its becomes "a mush". I read Nick said this was the best kit he ever recorded. Really? Doesn't translate that way.   If you listen to the beginning of The Wreckers, Neils cymbals and Alex's guitar have no depth. They step on each other.   Maybe Rush really could break out of the old and allow US to mix and master just ONE track. Don't care which one, but give us the means to show them, as fans, I think we can do a much better job.   Why? Because we have the time and we're not on a deadline and we're not getting paid.   We do it for love.

[Pound of Obscure]

The album is good enough, I'd pay 100 bucks for a properly mastered copy. Maybe more.

[They Bow Defeated]

QUOTE (Two0neOneTwo @ Jun 27 2012, 03:46 PM)

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 27 2012, 01:46 PM)   People are complaining about the mastering, but I can tell alot of the problems are with the actual mix. Yes I'm talking to you Raskulinecz. I agree.....At first I thought the mix was the least of concern but now after some really heady investigation the Mix was also pretty spotty.   Yeah, I think there are a few moments in the mix that are off, such as...   Alex's heavy guitars at the start of CA are too loud and trebly sounding.   Neil's long snare fill towards the end of HF is too quiet.   The clean guitar in the first chorus of The Garden is too loud.   There are other little nitpicky moments, but these are the ones that stand out to me.   And then mastering-wise (maybe mix-wise?), CA seems to have an overall "flat" sound, not as punchy as Far Cry from S&A, for example.   So it's a little surprising and dissapointing that they didn't at least meet the sound-quality of S&A, but it's no Vapor Trails for sure.   BTW, I do like the overall 70s-ish effect they were going for in the mix, with lots of effects, echo, reverse parts, etc.

[Two0neOneTwo]

[yetanothersteve]

Basically, the lads need to sit down with a few beers and listen to a vinyl pressing of Who's Next before mixing their next album.