Bernie Grundman

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 08:12 PM)

I'm sorry, but the mastering is appalling. I'm a massive Fanboy or "Fanboi" whatever... but this thing sounds like a carefully executed fart trying to escape from a well weaved, 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper... Songs are great, performances are great as well. Such a shame, it could have been immense!

To all those complaining about this issue.....

 

To say it should have been mastered better implies that you have a "better" to compare it with.

 

Unfortunately, we only have what Rush gives us. So how can you logically say this, when you have no basis for comparison for these songs?

 

Or....maybe some of you audiophiles would like to take a shot at cleaning it up, post the results for us to hear, and then we WILL have a basis for comparison, and we can praise your efforts.

 

Unless of course your remix sucks, and then it's no soup for you.

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 11:48 AM)

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 13 2012, 12:47 PM) QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 11:25 AM) QUOTE (losingit2k @ Jun 13 2012, 12:23 PM) QUOTE (Mr. Henry Gale @ Jun 13 2012, 11:09 AM) My biggest gripe with this album - is just the bass. I really do feel it's a bit muddy/bloated in spots. Especially if you have a subwoofer and a really nice set up. Maybe it's not as noticeable if you are using a laptop, or driving in the car. But if you have a nice set up, the bass is really overpowering and annoying in parts - as it will bleed into the vocals in a couple spots. But outside of that boomy bass, I don't really have any issues with how this album sounds. Some have said the vocals sound too low in the mix, but I think everything else (instruments, vocals) all sound more than fine. I think Mr. Henry Gale has a better grasp on the Sound for this album than most of the so called experts!   Why is "sound" capitalized? So you would have something to post!   I was just messing with you, jeez man. And I with you!

[Cygnus The God Of Balance]

We need a smiley that's lobbing a grenade so that we can throw them at the trolls....

 

Although this will work for now

[Mr. Henry Gale]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 08:47 AM)

QUOTE (Mr. Henry Gale @ Jun 13 2012, 12:40 PM) My thing is, I don't think Clockwork Angels sounds bad. Let me make that clear. In fact, I think most will not notice any issues, because they aren't playing this out of a system that has dedicated power for bass - or a system that is beyond just your standard stereo unit (ie. Laptop, or basic stereo set up). We were talking about this in another thread when discussing FLAC/LOSSLESS vs. MP3. FLAC/Lossless (or CD) is kind of a moot point for a lot of people, because most people don't have the systems to really tap into the full quality of these. So let's say you download a LOSSLESS copy of CA and are playing it through laptop speakers (or through basic headphones). You literally would not be able to tell the difference between the CD/LOSSLESS and V0 (or 320) mp3 rip. The same goes for those that put losssless on their iPod. So there is a certain level of human hearing that just can't tell the difference - especially when you don't have the power to fully juice up the lossless source. Conversely, if you are playing CA (CD) in a car stereo, or again a basic CD unit, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you plugged in your iPod or had a 320 (or V0) MP3 version playing through those systems. So the point I'm arriving at is - the average listener (the basic consumer) is not going to have these issues. But the reason I complain about this (and not because I'm a hardcore audiophile. I do care about sound, but I'm not THAT batshit crazy like those people can be) - is because I do not think just because the album sounds competent (and isn't awful like VT with clipping and distortion) - it means it was mixed great. I do not think this can be objectively true, if you look at past albums (from Rush or other bands) that sound infinitely better. So do I think CA is unlistenable? No. Of course not. Do I think it sounds good (what really matters is the music itself, and what they wrote) - yes. But I don't think we can say this is a great mix. Because it's not true. The bass really is too loud and bloated in spots. And there are some other little nitpicks I have, but won't get into. And my thing is - there is no reason for any of this. It's not like the older you get, the less capable you are of mixing/mastering something. It's not like playing an instrument, where you can slow down, because your technical playing is no longer at its peak. These are studio practices, and there is no excuse for why so many producers mix this stuff this loud. I honestly ask anyone to A/B CA to any Signals for instance, and tell me CA sounds great. It will sound bloated and loud - whereas Signals will sound much more crisp and clear (a clear separation and representation of the instruments and vocals). Awesome post. You put it more eloquently than I could have.   Except, you can tell the difference between lossless vs mp3 in the car or on a portable device--you just need high end speakers or headphones to do so.   I have Infinities in my car and I can tell the difference between mp3 and lossless, but before I got those speakers and in other people's cars the difference was less earth shattering.   The reason so much contemporary music is mixed/mastered so poorly is because most people don't listen to it dedicated settings (IE hi-fi system vs on an ipod on a train, etc) and therefore can't tell the difference. True. I just assume that your average person doesn't have nice speakers in something like a car. So I just go off the "basic" units. If that makes sense. I just assume most are using what comes standard.   I haven't done anything to my Honda for instance (all my audio purchase are for my home) - so there is no way I could tell the difference between a CD or 320 digital (if I plugged my iPhone directly in). Then again, I'll be honest and say it's not something I've tested out extensively. So maybe that part of my post was a bit of an overstatement. I have compared on my home stereo unit though (and laptop).

Edited June 13, 2012 by Mr. Henry Gale

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 11:49 AM)

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 08:12 PM) I'm sorry, but the mastering is appalling. I'm a massive  Fanboy or "Fanboi" whatever... but this thing sounds like a carefully executed fart trying to escape from a well weaved, 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper... Songs are great, performances are great as well. Such a shame, it could have been immense! To all those complaining about this issue.....   To say it should have been mastered better implies that you have a "better" to compare it with.   Unfortunately, we only have what Rush gives us. So how can you logically say this, when you have no basis for comparison for these songs?   Or....maybe some of you audiophiles would like to take a shot at cleaning it up, post the results for us to hear, and then we WILL have a basis for comparison, and we can praise your efforts.   Unless of course your remix sucks, and then it's no soup for you. But I like Soup!

[Mr. Henry Gale]

QUOTE (Mr. Henry Gale @ Jun 13 2012, 08:51 AM)

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 08:47 AM) The reason so much contemporary music is mixed/mastered so poorly is because most people don't listen to it dedicated settings (IE hi-fi system vs on an ipod on a train, etc) and therefore can't tell the difference.   Great post - and spot on. I guess maybe it is a moot point to talk about this stuff. 99% of everyone won't care about this or be able to hear what we are talking about.   =/   But I still think even on an iPod or standard system, this album could have sounded better (more clear etc.). But that's just me though.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Mr. Henry Gale

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 12:49 PM)

QUOTE (Terrapin @ Jun 12 2012, 08:12 PM) I'm sorry, but the mastering is appalling. I'm a massive  Fanboy or "Fanboi" whatever... but this thing sounds like a carefully executed fart trying to escape from a well weaved, 3-ply piece of perfumed toilet paper... Songs are great, performances are great as well. Such a shame, it could have been immense! To all those complaining about this issue.....   To say it should have been mastered better implies that you have a "better" to compare it with.   Unfortunately, we only have what Rush gives us. So how can you logically say this, when you have no basis for comparison for these songs?   Or....maybe some of you audiophiles would like to take a shot at cleaning it up, post the results for us to hear, and then we WILL have a basis for comparison, and we can praise your efforts.   Unless of course your remix sucks, and then it's no soup for you. Listen to the way any Porcupine Tree album sounds (or anything mixed/mastered by Steven Wilson from the last few years). That's my gold standard for what sounds good sonically.   And his music is lush too--keyboards, piano, flute, sax, drums, multiple guitar parts, vocal harmonies, etc.   Or if you want to use Rush as an example:   MP, Signals, GuP, PoW, etc. While you may not love the keyboards, synths, etc, you can hear all instruments clearly without distortion.

[Rush Cocky]

[losingit2k]

[Rush Cocky]

I think the mix sounds great.

 

I actually feel bad for those of you who are distracted by these alleged imperfections.

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 01:05 PM)

I think the mix sounds great. I actually feel bad for those of you who are distracted by these alleged imperfections.

I feel bad for myself. It's a curse at times, I swear.

 

But man, when I hear an album that is musically awesome and sonically awesome simultaneously it really hits my musical g-spot and gives me an eargasm....

 

 

....(that's terrible imagery, I'm sorry)

[marblesmike]

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 12:05 PM)

I think the mix sounds great. I actually feel bad for those of you who are distracted by these alleged imperfections.

It is sad. Its really not that distracting specially in your car, computer, headphones. Its only distracting over a major system that puts out a lot of low end and thats only during a few little instances. Just enjoy the brilliance of this album it's Magnificent! It is what it is! " a Measure of a Life"

 

Can you tell I'm listening to the Garden now?

 

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 01:10 PM)

when I hear an album that is musically awesome and sonically awesome simultaneously it really hits my musical g-spot and gives me an eargasm....

 

That too may end up in a signature.

[Mr. Henry Gale]

One thing else I would like to throw out there (this will be my last post. Getting sick of talking about this stuff, especially since most don't seem to care. Or are getting annoyed by us talking about it).

 

But, everyone has unique hearing. Some have more sensitive hearing than others. So that's something else to factor into all of this. I still strongly believe this is not a great mix. Especially if you compare it to actual great mixes. But I also get that not everyone has the same hearing, or even cares about this sort of thing.

 

So yeah, that is all.

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (Mr. Henry Gale @ Jun 13 2012, 10:27 AM)

One thing else I would like to throw out there (this will be my last post. Getting sick of talking about this stuff, especially since most don't seem to care. Or are getting annoyed by us talking about it). But, everyone has unique hearing. Some have more sensitive hearing than others. So that's something else to factor into all of this. I still strongly believe this is not a great mix. Especially if you compare it to actual great mixes. But I also get that not everyone has the same hearing, or even cares about this sort of thing. So yeah, that is all.

this, and it'll be my last post on sound issues as well. discussing it seems to irritate others and bitching about it isn't gonna change anything.

 

but let me add: I hope Steven Wilson does the 5.1 mix

[marblesmike]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 01:24 PM)

QUOTE (marblesmike @ Jun 13 2012, 01:10 PM) when I hear an album that is musically awesome and sonically awesome simultaneously it really hits my musical g-spot and gives me an eargasm....   That too may end up in a signature. I'm glad I posted something worthy of being a signature hahaha. That comment was only semi-serious.

[Dscrapre]

I'm hoping that someone will remix this thing. I like the album a lot and I don't find it un-listenable or anything, but I feel like some of it is just a tad too muddy and a little "Flat". The title track for instance is really bad. It sounds so "samey" production-wise all the way through. I was especially disappointed by the mix in the little blues section. The bass and drums were WAY too loud so the acoustic guitar just gets crushed. This is all very disappointing to me because I love that song.

 

I've heard some of the VT fan remixes and they sound pretty good. Maybe, one of the arm-chair producers around here can make CA sound that good.

[Rush Cocky]

QUOTE (Dscrapre @ Jun 13 2012, 01:38 PM)

I've heard some of the VT fan remixes and they sound pretty good. Maybe, one of the arm-chair producers around here can make CA sound that good.

I have a VT remix, and yeah it's good.

 

And yeah, maybe "one of the arm-chair producers around here" will take me up on my earlier offer.

 

I'd like to hear what it's supposed to sound like. Whatever that is.

[Mara]

Only minor complaint is that (IMO), sometimes they guitar is getting buried.

Other than that, my ears suck anyway, having undergone a fair amount of reconstructive work. So what do I know? I'm more or less ignorant on the subject, blissfully so, and the waveforms mean shit-all to me.

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 10:44 AM)

QUOTE (Dscrapre @ Jun 13 2012, 01:38 PM) I've heard some of the VT fan remixes and they sound pretty good. Maybe, one of the arm-chair producers around here can make CA sound that good. I have a VT remix, and yeah it's good.   And yeah, maybe "one of the arm-chair producers around here" will take me up on my earlier offer.   I'd like to hear what it's supposed to sound like. Whatever that is. well unless the armchair producers have the individual tracks, there isnt much they can do except tweak the final product EQ wise.

[Dscrapre]

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 11:44 AM)

QUOTE (Dscrapre @ Jun 13 2012, 01:38 PM) I've heard some of the VT fan remixes and they sound pretty good. Maybe, one of the arm-chair producers around here can make CA sound that good. I have a VT remix, and yeah it's good.   And yeah, maybe "one of the arm-chair producers around here" will take me up on my earlier offer.   I'd like to hear what it's supposed to sound like. Whatever that is. I really hope that they do. I can only imagine how great Clockwork Angels (the song) would sound with a little bit of dynamic range.

[Dscrapre]

QUOTE (Rushman14 @ Jun 13 2012, 11:52 AM)

QUOTE (Rush Cocky @ Jun 13 2012, 10:44 AM) QUOTE (Dscrapre @ Jun 13 2012, 01:38 PM) I've heard some of the VT fan remixes and they sound pretty good. Maybe, one of the arm-chair producers around here can make CA sound that good. I have a VT remix, and yeah it's good.   And yeah, maybe "one of the arm-chair producers around here" will take me up on my earlier offer.   I'd like to hear what it's supposed to sound like. Whatever that is. well unless the armchair producers have the individual tracks, there isnt much they can do except tweak the final product EQ wise. The Vapor Trails remixes that I heard were made from the CD and there is a noticeable improvement.

[analog guy]

I'd like to see Neil tune the drums a little lower. I've never been a big fan of the DWs..... even in person and on the concert DVDs I don't think they sound all that flash.

 

The punchy sounds of the early 80s albums were perfect.... I do wonder sometimes how 30 year old records can sound fresher and have more definition than those being made now.

 

Think it's funny that the Nightfly got name-dropped.... I think that's actually the worst sounding album in the Steely Dan lexicon. That's an example of very early digital. I think Roger Nichols got too carried away with his quantizing computer. Aja is my personal gold standard.

 

As for this album.... to me it isn't terrible. Nothing will ever be as bad as Vapor Trails was to me then. I think the conscious decision the band made to dial back the amount of overdubs on this record has helped the sound tremendously.

 

VT and to a lesser extent S&A had too many layers of guitars and multiple basses, to a point where they became lost in the mix.

 

This album has more space.

 

It isn't a perfect sounding album by any stretch of the imagination, but I find it isn't such a distraction that I can't enjoy what is a stellar album musically.

 

Vapor Trails was so bad, it was distracting. I couldn't listen to it. I still can't. Not the case with CA.

 

I would be interesting in hearing a vinyl rip.

Edited June 13, 2012 by analog guy

[Gedneil Alpeart]

QUOTE (analog guy @ Jun 13 2012, 01:36 PM)

I'd like to see Neil tune the drums a little lower. I've never been a big fan of the DWs..... even in person and on the concert DVDs I don't think they sound all that flash. The punchy sounds of the early 80s albums were perfect.... I do wonder sometimes how 30 year old records can sound fresher and have more definition than those being made now. Think it's funny that the Nightfly got name-dropped.... I think that's actually the worst sounding album in the Steely Dan lexicon. That's an example of very early digital. I think Roger Nichols got too carried away with his quantizing computer. Aja is my personal gold standard. As for this album.... to me it isn't terrible. Nothing will ever be as bad as Vapor Trails was to me then. I think the conscious decision the band made to dial back the amount of overdubs on this record has helped the sound tremendously. VT and to a lesser extent S&A had too many layers of guitars and multiple basses, to a point where they became lost in the mix. This album has more space. It isn't a perfect sounding album by any stretch of the imagination, but I find it isn't such a distraction that I can't enjoy what is a stellar album musically. Vapor Trails was so bad, it was distracting. I couldn't listen to it. I still can't. Not the case with CA. I would be interesting in hearing a vinyl rip.

Im with you on this one.