"Faithless" a triumph?

[ReflectedLight]

Let me ask you all something. I am not an envangelical type, I don't push anything on anyone, don't preach, but let my actions speak for themselves. I am however religious, but do not agree with everything that is in my Faith.

How can I look at the song "Faithless" in a way that even someone who has faith can get past some of the lyrics or maybe look at it from a different standpoint.

[Pwrgirl35]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 12:58 PM)

Let me ask you all something.  I am not an envangelical type, I don't push anything on anyone, don't preach, but let my actions speak for themselves.  I am however religious, and do not agree with everything. How can I look at the song "Faithless" in a way that even someone who has faith can get past some of the lyrics or maybe look at it from a different standpoint.

Well...Neil isn't really saying he has NO faith at all. He's saying that others call him "faithless" because he doesn't believe what they believe. As in a particular organized religion. Hope and love are his faith. And I don't think he's saying this in a superficial way either. It seems to go with the music, how serious he is about it. In that sense, there is beauty in the song as a whole for me.

 

The words are myopically his own, but I think the overall theme is TOLERANCE.

[Faithless]

Hasn't this question already been answered several times?

[Sam Bhattacharya]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 12:58 PM)

Let me ask you all something. I am not an envangelical type, I don't push anything on anyone, don't preach, but let my actions speak for themselves. I am however religious, but do not agree with everything that is in my Faith. How can I look at the song "Faithless" in a way that even someone who has faith can get past some of the lyrics or maybe look at it from a different standpoint.

Part of the lyrics say:

 

"And all the shouting voices

Try to throw me off my course

Some by sermon, some by force

Fools and thieves are dangerous

In the temple and market place"

 

So, it's not only refering to religion, but apparently also the forces of capitalist greed.

 

Can we all agree that there are in fact fools and thieves in the temple and market place? And that we shouldn't have faith in those people or believe what they preach?

 

That's one way to look at it.

 

 

 

[Pwrgirl35]

QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 01:15 PM)

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 12:58 PM) Let me ask you all something.  I am not an envangelical type, I don't push anything on anyone, don't preach, but let my actions speak for themselves.  I am however religious, but do not agree with everything that is in my Faith. How can I look at the song "Faithless" in a way that even someone who has faith can get past some of the lyrics or maybe look at it from a different standpoint. Part of the lyrics say:   "And all the shouting voices Try to throw me off my course Some by sermon, some by force Fools and thieves are dangerous In the temple and market place"   So, it's not only refering to religion, but apparently also the forces of capitalist greed.   Can we all agree that there are in fact fools and thieves in the temple and market place? And that we shouldn't have faith in those people or believe what they preach?   That's one way to look at it. Yes! Interesting point. The corruption involved in every religion.   Plus, the song simply ROCKS!

[Sam Bhattacharya]

Also, it would be uncharacteristically simplistic of Neil to write "I don't have faith in God," or "I don't believe in God." And that's not what the lyrics say either.

 

Rather, it's "I don't have faith in FAITH" and "I don't believe in BELIEF." This can be read as OTHER people's faith or OTHER people's belief. And the lyrics also say "YOU can call me faithless" - that is, those other people might think of me as faithless because I don't agree with their beliefs. But *I* don't think of myself as faithless - because I still cling to hope and believe in love, and that's faith enough for me.

 

So, the song to me is not so much against religion or spirituality per se, as it is against what passes for religious faith or religious belief among many people.

 

 

[Pwrgirl35]

QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 01:41 PM)

Also, it would be uncharacteristically simplistic of Neil to write "I don't have faith in God," or "I don't believe in God."  And that's not what the lyrics say either.  Rather, it's "I don't have faith in FAITH" and "I don't believe in BELIEF."  This can be read as OTHER people's faith or OTHER people's belief.  And the lyrics also say "YOU can call me faithless" - that is, those other people might think of me as faithless because I don't agree with their beliefs.  But *I* don't think of myself as faithless - because I still cling to hope and believe in love, and that's faith enough for me.  So, the song to me is not so much against religion or spirituality per se, as it is against what passes for religious faith or religious belief among many people.

Another great post! You're on fire, Sam.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 01:41 PM)

Also, it would be uncharacteristically simplistic of Neil to write "I don't have faith in God," or "I don't believe in God." And that's not what the lyrics say either. Rather, it's "I don't have faith in FAITH" and "I don't believe in BELIEF." This can be read as OTHER people's faith or OTHER people's belief. And the lyrics also say "YOU can call me faithless" - that is, those other people might think of me as faithless because I don't agree with their beliefs. But *I* don't think of myself as faithless - because I still cling to hope and believe in love, and that's faith enough for me. So, the song to me is not so much against religion or spirituality per se, as it is against what passes for religious faith or religious belief among many people.

A little bit more clear. Thanks.

 

[Sam Bhattacharya]

QUOTE (Pwrgirl35 @ May 22 2007, 01:16 PM)

QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 01:15 PM) QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 12:58 PM) Let me ask you all something.  I am not an envangelical type, I don't push anything on anyone, don't preach, but let my actions speak for themselves.  I am however religious, but do not agree with everything that is in my Faith. How can I look at the song "Faithless" in a way that even someone who has faith can get past some of the lyrics or maybe look at it from a different standpoint. Part of the lyrics say:   "And all the shouting voices Try to throw me off my course Some by sermon, some by force Fools and thieves are dangerous In the temple and market place"   So, it's not only refering to religion, but apparently also the forces of capitalist greed.   Can we all agree that there are in fact fools and thieves in the temple and market place? And that we shouldn't have faith in those people or believe what they preach?   That's one way to look at it. Yes! Interesting point. The corruption involved in every religion.   Plus, the song simply ROCKS!   Yup. And like Jack Black said, rock'n'roll is all about "sticking it to the man"!   Which Faithless does perfectly.

[ReflectedLight]

I think it means resistance to a certain type. One's who are pushy, in your face, overly persuasive, or knocking on your door. I quietly resist by pretending I'm not home.

[New World Kid]

I'm an agnostic who plays in a Christian rock band at a church every Sunday.

 

If preachy lyrics offended me, things would be different.

 

End of statement. I'm not overly sensitive about others beliefs, and neither should anyone else.

[quickfree]

I love this song.

 

Classic 90's Rush at its best like Ghost of A Chance but more fine tuned.

 

Don't think they'll do it live though because of the strings, but those can be easily triggered or programmed to a synth if necessary.

[ReflectedLight]

It's not a bad song, but I hope they don't play, the way the wind blows.

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 05:02 PM)

It's not a bad song, but I hope they don't play, the way the wind blows.

I think they probably will play Way the Wind Blows.

 

I bet they'll come up with a very cool video segment for TWTWB as well (current events, CNN footage, etc.).

 

 

 

 

[Gompers]

Faithless gets my vote for a must play.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (PariahDog @ May 22 2007, 07:13 PM)

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 05:02 PM) It's not a bad song, but I hope they don't play, the way the wind blows. I think they probably will play Way the Wind Blows.   I bet they'll come up with a very cool video segment for TWTWB as well (current events, CNN footage, etc.). nah, I don't think they will. They said there going to play about 7-8 tunes, but I don't see them playing twtwb.

[Ghost of a Rider]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 21 2007, 10:12 AM)

QUOTE (Gerxt @ May 21 2007, 09:53 AM) QUOTE Same. But that might be a bit over the top for most listeners.   No lets get this straight. To most people the initial post is bizzare in the extreme. Most people totally agree with Neil's point of view.   You should note that the religious radicals that are described in TWTWB include you. You no doubt don't see it that way but the majority of this world do. Tell me you didn't vote for GWB and his Iraq war? Most people on TRF do agree with what Neil says. I don't know. There's alot going on in the world, and I see Neil's point of view but the "I don't have faith in faith..." could have been worded differently. Not to make the ones who are religious happy, but just from a neutral standpoint. I think maybe you misunderstand what Neil is saying here. Or maybe I'm the one who has it wrong. But anyway, I think what he means when he says "I don't have faith in faith..I don't believe in belief" is that he doesn't hold to the concept of faith for its own sake. In other words, he's not the type to have faith or believe in things unseen just for the sake of having faith. He has faith and belief in things that are perceptually real to him; hope and love among other things.   As an atheist I understand where he's coming from. I don't see the point in having blind faith in things that can't be proven or have no real evidence. That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did.   As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat.   The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence.

[troutman]

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM)

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 21 2007, 10:12 AM) QUOTE (Gerxt @ May 21 2007, 09:53 AM) QUOTE Same. But that might be a bit over the top for most listeners.   No lets get this straight. To most people the initial post is bizzare in the extreme. Most people totally agree with Neil's point of view.   You should note that the religious radicals that are described in TWTWB include you. You no doubt don't see it that way but the majority of this world do. Tell me you didn't vote for GWB and his Iraq war? Most people on TRF do agree with what Neil says. I don't know. There's alot going on in the world, and I see Neil's point of view but the "I don't have faith in faith..." could have been worded differently. Not to make the ones who are religious happy, but just from a neutral standpoint. I think maybe you misunderstand what Neil is saying here. Or maybe I'm the one who has it wrong. But anyway, I think what he means when he says "I don't have faith in faith..I don't believe in belief" is that he doesn't hold to the concept of faith for its own sake. In other words, he's not the type to have faith or believe in things unseen just for the sake of having faith. He has faith and belief in things that are perceptually real to him; hope and love among other things.   As an atheist I understand where he's coming from. I don't see the point in having blind faith in things that can't be proven or have no real evidence. That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did.   As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat.   The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm   BTW the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old

[WCFIELDS]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 05:02 PM)

It's not a bad song, but I hope they don't play, the way the wind blows.

The chorus in Wind Blows destroys the song.........sounds like a Tim Mcgraw chorus....

[daveyt]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 05:21 PM)

They said there going to play about 7-8 tunes

try not to drop a spoiler bomb when the tour starts, ok?

 

edit for spellinge

[Tammeh]

QUOTE (WCFIELDS @ May 22 2007, 06:58 PM)

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 22 2007, 05:02 PM) It's not a bad song, but I hope they don't play, the way the wind blows. The chorus in Wind Blows destroys the song.........sounds like a Tim Mcgraw chorus.... Cripes, I like that chorus of TWTWB I have not heard Tim McGraw, is he some country dude?? Tell me it's not so!!   Dammit.

[deslock]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM)

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM) That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs  were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did. As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat. The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm He only mentioned Christianity in a few specific contexts: He used to be Christian He's debated some Christians The majority of Christians in the USA are moderates, but a small number of evangelical Christians have a lot of clout The first two refer to his experiences. The third relates to the country he lives in and Peart's lyrics being inspired in part by motorcycle trips through the Bible belt. So I don't think he avoided mentioning other religions like Islam to be politically incorrect.   As far as the question posed by the initial post goes, the answer is no it wouldn't bother me if someone wrote lyrics like that. But they don't apply to the USA for many reasons, such as: ~90% of the population believes in God Expressing faith is openly accepted while stating one's position as an Atheist is not A large portion of the country believes this should be a Christian nation... look at the uproar that ensued when it was mistakenly reported that congressman Keith Ellison (a Muslim) would be sworn in on the Koran instead of the Bible. In reality, no book is present for the ceremony. But Ellison was hounded about it, even being asked by CNN's Glenn Beck, "I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, 'Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.' " 53% of the population wouldn't vote for an Atheist presidential candidate (as Ghost of a Rider mentioned) George H. W. Bush said "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." (note that he was given many opportunities to elaborate and/or take it back, but he did not) Also consider that Peart went through an area of the USA dominated by billboards and signs promoting a specific religion: QUOTE "It came from travelling through all these back roads and small towns and seeing these church signs everywhere," says Peart. "Some of them are amusing, like: `If you give the devil a ride, pretty soon he'll want to drive.' That's fantastic. But other ones were just so presumptuous with these big crosses and scripture. What makes you think that's okay? I tried to imagine going by one with the crescent and star saying, `There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.' Or one with the Star of David saying, `That carpenter wasn't our messiah.' It makes me laugh, in a way, but in another, this is so f--ked up. "It's so arrogant and that's what I can't get over. So I was trying to weigh all that .... I didn't want to make enemies gratuitously, but I decided I had to say something because if I didn't I was just allowing that to happen. It's worth speaking out despite the vilification and stuff that might come back at you. If you're not speaking for reason, you're speaking for unreason." Reactions like some in this thread simply back up what Peart was getting at... there are countless religious bands and unless their lyrics are extreme no one cares. But look at how upset some get when a lyricist is critical of evangelics and religious extremists. It's almost as silly as the old threads at rushmessageboard.com that complained about the RIR packaging having the dragon photochopped over the Jesus statue in Rio de Janeiro. Some were so offended that they taped a photo of the original Jesus statue over it.

[troutman]

QUOTE (deslock @ May 22 2007, 06:21 PM)

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM) That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs  were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did. As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat. The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm He only mentioned Christianity in a few specific contexts: He used to be Christian   He's debated some Christians   The majority of Christians in the USA are moderates, but a small number of evangelical Christians have a lot of clout The first two refer to his experiences. The third relates to the country he lives in and Peart's lyrics being inspired in part by motorcycle trips through the Bible belt. So I don't think he avoided mentioning other religions like Islam to be politically incorrect.   As far as the question posed by the initial post goes, the answer is no it wouldn't bother me if someone wrote lyrics like that. But they don't apply to the USA for many reasons, such as: ~90% of the population believes in God   Expressing faith is openly accepted while stating one's position as an Atheist is not   A large portion of the country believes this should be a Christian nation... look at the uproar that ensued when it was mistakenly reported that congressman Keith Ellison (a Muslim) would be sworn in on the Koran instead of the Bible. In reality, no book is present for the ceremony. But Ellison was hounded about it, even being asked by CNN's Glenn Beck, "I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, 'Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.' "   53% of the population wouldn't vote for an Atheist presidential candidate   (as Ghost of a Rider mentioned) George H. W. Bush said "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." (note that he was given many opportunities to elaborate and/or take it back, but he did not)   Also consider that Peart went through an area of the USA dominated by billboards and signs promoting a specific religion: QUOTE "It came from travelling through all these back roads and small towns and seeing these church signs everywhere," says Peart. "Some of them are amusing, like: `If you give the devil a ride, pretty soon he'll want to drive.' That's fantastic. But other ones were just so presumptuous with these big crosses and scripture. What makes you think that's okay? I tried to imagine going by one with the crescent and star saying, `There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet.' Or one with the Star of David saying, `That carpenter wasn't our messiah.' It makes me laugh, in a way, but in another, this is so f--ked up. "It's so arrogant and that's what I can't get over. So I was trying to weigh all that .... I didn't want to make enemies gratuitously, but I decided I had to say something because if I didn't I was just allowing that to happen. It's worth speaking out despite the vilification and stuff that might come back at you. If you're not speaking for reason, you're speaking for unreason." Reactions like some in this thread simply back up what Peart was getting at... there are countless religious bands and unless their lyrics are extreme no one cares. But look at how upset some get when a lyricist is critical of evangelics and religious extremists. It's almost as silly as the old threads at rushmessageboard.com that complained about the RIR packaging having the dragon photochopped over the Jesus statue in Rio de Janeiro. Some were so offended that they taped a photo of the original Jesus statue over it. Thanks for making my point yes it's overwhelmingly about Christianity. Not about those who want to kill us unless we convert to there religon. I don't see that happening in the Bible belt do you??? Maybe, if Neil tried to ride across the Middle East and say the same thing about what goes on there he might have a change of heart about a silly Church sign

[pedro2112]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 09:49 PM)

Thanks for making my point yes it's overwhelmingly about Christianity. Not about those who want to kill us unless we convert to there religon. I don't see that happening in the Bible belt do you??? Maybe, if Neil tried to ride across the Middle East and say the same thing about what goes on there he might have a change of heart about a silly Church sign

Yes, he does talk about the middle east on the album. How do we know this? Because its in the frickin' lyrics!!!!

 

 

[Test4VitalSigns]

QUOTE (pedro2112 @ May 23 2007, 12:06 AM)

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 09:49 PM) Thanks for making my point yes it's overwhelmingly about Christianity. Not about those who want to kill us unless we convert to there religon. I don't see that happening in the Bible belt do you??? Maybe, if Neil tried   to ride across the Middle East and say the same thing about what goes on there he might have a change of heart about a silly Church sign Yes, he does talk about the middle east on the album. How do we know this? Because its in the frickin' lyrics!!!! exactly