"Faithless" a triumph?

[troutman]

QUOTE (Test4VitalSigns @ May 22 2007, 07:08 PM)

QUOTE (pedro2112 @ May 23 2007, 12:06 AM) QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 09:49 PM) Thanks for making my point yes it's overwhelmingly about Christianity. Not about those who want to kill us unless we convert to there religon. I don't see that happening in the Bible belt do you??? Maybe, if Neil tried   to ride across the Middle East and say the same thing about what goes on there he might have a change of heart about a silly Church sign Yes, he does talk about the middle east on the album. How do we know this? Because its in the frickin' lyrics!!!! exactly your missing the point try to go ride there and say the same thing to those people. see how far you get

[Sam Bhattacharya]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM)

BTW the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old

But Neil has previously written songs with a more positive view towards religion(s), spirituality and places of worship as well.

 

 

[troutman]

QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 07:37 PM)

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) BTW  the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old But Neil has previously written songs with a more positive view towards religion(s), spirituality and places of worship as well. regardless.. move on we know your views

[troutman]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 07:43 PM)

QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 07:37 PM) QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) BTW  the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old But Neil has previously written songs with a more positive view towards religion(s), spirituality and places of worship as well. regardless.. move on we know your views Not you SB... Neil look don't get me wrong here.. I love Neil and the boy's since the early 70's. I just wish Neil would be a little more specific instead of putting religion in one boat that's all. There is the free world and the not so free world as far as this topic goes. And the latter is not so cumfy if you know what I mean.There isn't the freedom of expression regardless of your views on life. But, here in North America and other free society's there is. So the point is, instead of going after religion as a whole maybe Neil should look at the places where it isn't excepted to speak your mind regardless of your religous beliefs that's all

[faultline]

QUOTE (deslock @ May 22 2007, 10:21 PM)

As far as the question posed by the initial post goes, the answer is no it wouldn't bother me if someone wrote lyrics like that. But they don't apply to the USA for many reasons, such as:

1. 
   [*]~90% of the population believes in God
   
   [*]Expressing faith is openly accepted while stating one's position as an Atheist is not
   
   [*]A large portion of the country believes this should be a Christian nation... look at the uproar that ensued when it was mistakenly reported that congressman Keith Ellison (a Muslim) would be sworn in on the Koran instead of the Bible. In reality, no book is present for the ceremony. But Ellison was hounded about it, even being asked by CNN's Glenn Beck, "I have been nervous about this interview with you, because what I feel like saying is, 'Sir, prove to me that you are not working with our enemies.' "
   
   [*]53% of the population wouldn't vote for an Atheist presidential candidate
   
   [*](as Ghost of a Rider mentioned) George H. W. Bush said "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." (note that he was given many opportunities to elaborate and/or take it back, but he did not)
   
   

thanks for answering my initial post

 

I have stated , that as a believer , I would think that it would be over dramatic to write such lyrics.

 

If you noticed in the song, I replaced "Temple" with "Classroom" the 1st time, and "Media" the second. Those can be some rough edged places toward religious thought at times. ...I have not been an atheist before, but I think that being agnostic is more palatable to most folks, I wonder what the stats are for voting for an agnostic candidate?

 

Kids get kicked out of school for wearing Jesus shirts.

Christain clubs are sometimes not allowed to meet on school premesis.

Valevictorians (Spelling?) cannot share freely about their faith in God.

Not many Pop radio hits are overtly religious, (why is that if 90% believe in God) you can scarcely say the "J" word.

99% of the people who founded our nation were Christain, there are some who are threatened by overturning that heritage, and are desperately trying to recover it. I personally dont care, this is a free nation.

Congress still opens its sessions with prayer as a tradition handed down from our founding fathers who started this secular nation.

There has always been a fervent Christian base in this nation's politics.

The Abolishionists of the 19th century were not led by a bunch athiests believing in love, but rather a bunch angry evangelicals who thought that God created all men equal , and that slavery should be abolished.

There's your sword! Put that in the damn song!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (deslock @ May 22 2007, 10:21 PM)

A large portion of the country believes this should be a Christian nation...

 

No thanks, I'll stick with the First Amendment:

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

 

 

(Thread lock countdown: 10... 9... 8... )

 

 

[Gerxt]

QUOTE

your missing the point laugh.gif try to go ride there and say the same thing to those people. see how far you get unsure.gif wink.gif

 

I goto the middle east on business regularly and i find the place a lot more open to outsiders and their opinions that the US.

[Ghost of a Rider]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM)

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (hope70 @ May 21 2007, 10:12 AM) QUOTE (Gerxt @ May 21 2007, 09:53 AM) QUOTE Same. But that might be a bit over the top for most listeners.   No lets get this straight. To most people the initial post is bizzare in the extreme. Most people totally agree with Neil's point of view.   You should note that the religious radicals that are described in TWTWB include you. You no doubt don't see it that way but the majority of this world do. Tell me you didn't vote for GWB and his Iraq war? Most people on TRF do agree with what Neil says. I don't know. There's alot going on in the world, and I see Neil's point of view but the "I don't have faith in faith..." could have been worded differently. Not to make the ones who are religious happy, but just from a neutral standpoint. I think maybe you misunderstand what Neil is saying here. Or maybe I'm the one who has it wrong. But anyway, I think what he means when he says "I don't have faith in faith..I don't believe in belief" is that he doesn't hold to the concept of faith for its own sake. In other words, he's not the type to have faith or believe in things unseen just for the sake of having faith. He has faith and belief in things that are perceptually real to him; hope and love among other things.   As an atheist I understand where he's coming from. I don't see the point in having blind faith in things that can't be proven or have no real evidence. That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did.   As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat.   The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm   BTW the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old Would it matter if I did? If you want me to say that I think radical islam is dangerous then I'll say it: Radical islam is dangerous. Believe me, I have no use for political correctness. If I see a turd in the punchbowl then I'm gonna let everyone know about it. No, I speak mostly about christianity because it's where most of my experiences with religion come from.   What pisses me off about religion (and probably pisses Neil off too) is that I or someone I love could be killed because of the concept of a god that was invented thousands of years ago that I don't even share. I might become collateral damage in a war that has nothing to do with me.

[deslock]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 10:49 PM)

Thanks for making my point yes it's overwhelmingly about Christianity. Not about those who want to kill us unless we convert to there religon. I don't see that happening in the Bible belt do you??? Maybe, if Neil tried   to ride across the Middle East and say the same thing about what goes on there he might have a change of heart about a silly Church sign

I never equated Muslim terrorists with Christian evangelicals and neither did Neil. From previous threads:

 

http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?show...40entry881163

http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?show...20entry884250

 

QUOTE (faultline @ May 23 2007, 01:51 AM)

thanks for answering my initial post I have stated , that as a believer , I would think that it would be over dramatic to write such lyrics. If you noticed in the song, I  replaced "Temple" with "Classroom" the 1st time, and "Media" the second.  Those can be some rough edged places toward religious thought at times. ...I have not been an atheist before, but I think that being agnostic is more  palatable  to most folks, I wonder what the stats are for voting for an agnostic candidate? Kids get kicked out of school for wearing Jesus shirts. Christain clubs are sometimes not allowed to meet on school premesis. Valevictorians (Spelling?) cannot share freely about their faith in God. Not many Pop radio hits are overtly religious, (why is that if 90% believe in God) you can scarcely say the "J" word. 99% of  the people who founded our nation were Christain, there are some who are threatened by overturning that heritage, and are desperately trying to recover it. I personally dont care, this is a free nation. Congress still opens its sessions with prayer as a tradition handed down from our founding fathers who started this secular nation. There has always been a fervent Christian base in this nation's politics. The Abolishionists of the 19th century were not led by a bunch athiests believing in love, but rather a bunch angry evangelicals who thought that God created all men equal , and that slavery should be abolished. There's your sword! Put that in the damn song!

I suspect that if the question was worded as "Would you vote for someone who does not believe in God?" (which includes both Atheists and Agnostics), the percentage would be roughly the same.

 

As far as the rest of your points go about persecution/harassment of Christians, read up on them and you'll find that in many cases, the story was exaggerated or is outright false. A lot of blogs, commentators, politicians, and pundits sensationalize this sort of stuff to get a reaction/ratings/etc (ie see the War on Christmas). Of course some of that sort of thing has happened, but the point is that it's disingenuous for them to frame it as widespread.

 

As far as your historical bullets go, most are a bit off-topic (or at least tangential) and probably belong in the religious forum (as does much of the stuff in this thread). I'm only posting here as I've been a member for over a year but do not have enough posts to access it (though this might actually be my 100th post so at some point I'll meander over there).

[udanax]

Im a christian, yes I'll admit it......but for some reason I find no problem in the song at all. I actually find it quite beautiful, one of my favorites on this CD. Maybe it's because I can understand other people's points of view or something.....I dunno. I would say that Neil's beliefs are set in stone, but that doesn't mean that I cannot enjoy something beautiful.

 

In my opinion, opinions are what cause problems, whether you are religious or not. No matter what side you choose it doesn't make you any better than the person sitting next to you. It just depends on the way you interperet life.

 

Some people just cant believe in something if they have doubts about it. There is no problem in that whatsoever. We make or own choices. We have freewill.

 

We all try to be better than the next person, and agree with people that agree with us because they make us sound like we are right. Being right is important in this world because people have based their whole lives on their opinions and beliefs. Many people will die for their opinions.

 

Anways, those are my thoughts. You can loathe or love me for it......whatever you choose. I dont care either way. Im still going to believe in it.

Neil is not completely faithless I don't think. I think he has faith in his opinions, or else how could he put them into a song? I have faith in mine.

[troutman]

QUOTE (udanax @ May 23 2007, 05:56 AM)

Im a christian, yes I'll admit it......but for some reason I find no problem in the song at all. I actually find it quite beautiful, one of my favorites on this CD. Maybe it's because I can understand other people's points of view or something.....I dunno. I would say that Neil's beliefs are set in stone, but that doesn't mean that I cannot enjoy something beautiful. In my opinion, opinions are what cause problems, whether you are religious or not. No matter what side you choose it doesn't make you any better than the person sitting next to you. It just depends on the way you interperet life. Some people just cant believe in something if they have doubts about it. There is no problem in that whatsoever. We make or own choices. We have freewill. We all try to be better than the next person, and agree with people that agree with us because they make us sound like we are right. Being right is important in this world because people have based their whole lives on their opinions and beliefs. Many people will die for their opinions. Anways, those are my thoughts. You can loathe or love me for it......whatever you choose. I dont care either way. Im still going to believe in it. Neil is not completely faithless I don't think. I think he has faith in his opinions, or else how could he put them into a song? I have faith in mine.

[troutman]

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 23 2007, 05:06 AM)

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (hope70 @ May 21 2007, 10:12 AM) QUOTE (Gerxt @ May 21 2007, 09:53 AM) QUOTE Same. But that might be a bit over the top for most listeners.   No lets get this straight. To most people the initial post is bizzare in the extreme. Most people totally agree with Neil's point of view.   You should note that the religious radicals that are described in TWTWB include you. You no doubt don't see it that way but the majority of this world do. Tell me you didn't vote for GWB and his Iraq war? Most people on TRF do agree with what Neil says. I don't know. There's alot going on in the world, and I see Neil's point of view but the "I don't have faith in faith..." could have been worded differently. Not to make the ones who are religious happy, but just from a neutral standpoint. I think maybe you misunderstand what Neil is saying here. Or maybe I'm the one who has it wrong. But anyway, I think what he means when he says "I don't have faith in faith..I don't believe in belief" is that he doesn't hold to the concept of faith for its own sake. In other words, he's not the type to have faith or believe in things unseen just for the sake of having faith. He has faith and belief in things that are perceptually real to him; hope and love among other things.   As an atheist I understand where he's coming from. I don't see the point in having blind faith in things that can't be proven or have no real evidence. That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did.   As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat.   The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm   BTW the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old Would it matter if I did? If you want me to say that I think radical islam is dangerous then I'll say it: Radical islam is dangerous. Believe me, I have no use for political correctness. If I see a turd in the punchbowl then I'm gonna let everyone know about it. No, I speak mostly about christianity because it's where most of my experiences with religion come from.   What pisses me off about religion (and probably pisses Neil off too) is that I or someone I love could be killed because of the concept of a god that was invented thousands of years ago that I don't even share. I might become collateral damage in a war that has nothing to do with me.   So tell me this, do you feel the same way about let's say the dictator of North Korea who is an atheist himself. Who has persecuted, tortured and starved millions for decades. for what??? nothing. What a waist of life not letting others to live in freedom to express there FAITH in God or anything they desire. Isn't that a double standard?   BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in

[snafu jazzfest]

QUOTE (udanax @ May 23 2007, 09:56 AM)

In my opinion, opinions are what cause problems, whether you are religious or not. No matter what side you choose it doesn't make you any better than the person sitting next to you. It just depends on the way you interperet life. .... We all try to be better than the next person, and agree with people that agree with us  because they make us sound like we are right. Being right is important in this world because people have based their whole lives on their opinions and beliefs. Many people will die for their opinions. Anways, those are my thoughts. You can loathe or love me for it......whatever you choose. I dont care either way. Im still going to believe in it. Neil is not completely faithless I don't think. I think he has faith in his opinions, or else how could he put them into a song? I have faith in mine.

Quality comments!

 

 

 

I think Neil's just asking for the right to his own views, without a need to subscribe to any doctrine (for want of a better word), whether policical, religious or social. I don't believe he's knocking religion, just emphasising the need for individuals to figure their own place and values within the world.

 

I think I'm quoting him here, but it may be a paraphrase. Anyway, it's Neil;

"I'm not an existentialist. I am free."

[snafu jazzfest]

By the way, since this is a forum, Faithless rocks, as does the rest of the album.

 

[deslock]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 23 2007, 10:23 AM)

So tell me this, do you feel the same way about let's say the dictator of North Korea who is an atheist himself. Who has persecuted, tortured and starved millions for decades. for what??? nothing. What a waist of life not letting others to live in freedom to express there FAITH in God or anything they desire. Isn't that a double standard? BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there (sic) FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in

Why don't you resort to Godwin's Law while you're at it

 

Yeah, there are a lot of religious leaders who've done evil things and a lot of atheist leaders who've done evil things. Leaders citing their religion to justify their actions is what Ghost of a Rider was getting at (as far as I can tell).

 

 

[RUSHMUSE]

...BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in "

 

 

 

 

Most people who are persecuted for having a particular faith are persecuted by those who have a DIFFERENT faith. AND believe that persecution will get them that golden ticket to whatever they call heaven. (rewarded)

 

 

Most Atheists have read Darwins Origin of Species, some consider it their "Bible", no where in this book does it encourage you to attack those that don't share your beliefs, like it does in the Koran and The Old Testament.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (RUSHMUSE @ May 23 2007, 01:08 PM)

...BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in " Most people who are persecuted for having a particular faith are persecuted by those who have a DIFFERENT faith. AND believe that persecution will get them that golden ticket to whatever they call heaven. (rewarded) Most Atheists have read Darwins Origin of Species, some consider it their "Bible", no where in this book does it encourage you to attack those that don't share your beliefs, like it does in the Koran and The Old Testament.

The Old Testament encourages you to attack those that don't share your beliefs???

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 23 2007, 12:18 AM)

QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 07:43 PM) QUOTE (Sam Bhattacharya @ May 22 2007, 07:37 PM) QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) BTW  the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old But Neil has previously written songs with a more positive view towards religion(s), spirituality and places of worship as well. regardless.. move on we know your views Not you SB... Neil look don't get me wrong here.. I love Neil and the boy's since the early 70's. I just wish Neil would be a little more specific instead of putting religion in one boat that's all. There is the free world and the not so free world as far as this topic goes. And the latter is not so cumfy if you know what I mean.There isn't the freedom of expression regardless of your views on life. But, here in North America and other free society's there is. So the point is, instead of going after religion as a whole maybe Neil should look at the places where it isn't excepted to speak your mind regardless of your religous beliefs that's all I thought Neil was being specific, as towards the evangelical type, or the ones who like to come knocking on your door preaching and handing out stuff. I am religious but this is not my cup of tea, and I see Neil's point if this is what he's saying.

[Ghost of a Rider]

QUOTE (troutman @ May 23 2007, 10:23 AM)

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 23 2007, 05:06 AM) QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (hope70 @ May 21 2007, 10:12 AM) QUOTE (Gerxt @ May 21 2007, 09:53 AM) QUOTE Same. But that might be a bit over the top for most listeners.   No lets get this straight. To most people the initial post is bizzare in the extreme. Most people totally agree with Neil's point of view.   You should note that the religious radicals that are described in TWTWB include you. You no doubt don't see it that way but the majority of this world do. Tell me you didn't vote for GWB and his Iraq war? Most people on TRF do agree with what Neil says. I don't know. There's alot going on in the world, and I see Neil's point of view but the "I don't have faith in faith..." could have been worded differently. Not to make the ones who are religious happy, but just from a neutral standpoint. I think maybe you misunderstand what Neil is saying here. Or maybe I'm the one who has it wrong. But anyway, I think what he means when he says "I don't have faith in faith..I don't believe in belief" is that he doesn't hold to the concept of faith for its own sake. In other words, he's not the type to have faith or believe in things unseen just for the sake of having faith. He has faith and belief in things that are perceptually real to him; hope and love among other things.   As an atheist I understand where he's coming from. I don't see the point in having blind faith in things that can't be proven or have no real evidence. That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did.   As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat.   The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm   BTW the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old Would it matter if I did? If you want me to say that I think radical islam is dangerous then I'll say it: Radical islam is dangerous. Believe me, I have no use for political correctness. If I see a turd in the punchbowl then I'm gonna let everyone know about it. No, I speak mostly about christianity because it's where most of my experiences with religion come from.   What pisses me off about religion (and probably pisses Neil off too) is that I or someone I love could be killed because of the concept of a god that was invented thousands of years ago that I don't even share. I might become collateral damage in a war that has nothing to do with me.   So tell me this, do you feel the same way about let's say the dictator of North Korea who is an atheist himself. Who has persecuted, tortured and starved millions for decades. for what??? nothing. What a waist of life not letting others to live in freedom to express there FAITH in God or anything they desire. Isn't that a double standard?   BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in Somebody's craaanky.   Look, I talked about my experiences with christians. I'll not be chastised just because I happened not to mention the North Korean dictator or anybody else who's killed for their beliefs. If it will make you feel better I'll officially state that I think it's wrong for anyone to kill or oppress people in the name of religion or politics. Satisfied? And I never saw the point in arguing body counts by atheists and religionists. If you've gone that far then the debate is lost by both sides. What is one to say; "I think I'll become a christian because they've killed less people"? Nay, this is one of the reasons I got away from religion.   I think maybe you've misconstrued the things I said or perceived a slight that wasn't there. Most of the people I know are christians and are fine people. If you mistook my statements as anti-christian then maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. My beef is with those who would use their beliefs as a sword like in the song.   I like you too much to let this come between us troutman so maybe we oughta lay off this topic. But I will say this; This thread and others like it are exactly what Neil was talking about. Has anyone else noticed this?

[troutman]

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 23 2007, 03:29 PM)

QUOTE (troutman @ May 23 2007, 10:23 AM) QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 23 2007, 05:06 AM) QUOTE (troutman @ May 22 2007, 08:15 PM) QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 22 2007, 03:45 PM) QUOTE (hope70 @ May 21 2007, 10:12 AM) QUOTE (Gerxt @ May 21 2007, 09:53 AM) QUOTE Same. But that might be a bit over the top for most listeners.   No lets get this straight. To most people the initial post is bizzare in the extreme. Most people totally agree with Neil's point of view.   You should note that the religious radicals that are described in TWTWB include you. You no doubt don't see it that way but the majority of this world do. Tell me you didn't vote for GWB and his Iraq war? Most people on TRF do agree with what Neil says. I don't know. There's alot going on in the world, and I see Neil's point of view but the "I don't have faith in faith..." could have been worded differently. Not to make the ones who are religious happy, but just from a neutral standpoint. I think maybe you misunderstand what Neil is saying here. Or maybe I'm the one who has it wrong. But anyway, I think what he means when he says "I don't have faith in faith..I don't believe in belief" is that he doesn't hold to the concept of faith for its own sake. In other words, he's not the type to have faith or believe in things unseen just for the sake of having faith. He has faith and belief in things that are perceptually real to him; hope and love among other things.   As an atheist I understand where he's coming from. I don't see the point in having blind faith in things that can't be proven or have no real evidence. That's not to say that I don't understand the concept of faith. Having been a christian once, I fully understand it. But when I examined why I believed within the context of why people of other faiths believe, I saw that my beliefs were not unique. Seeing this, I could no longer cling desperately to them as I once did.   As I said before on a similar thread, this song is addressed to those who would call him faithless with contempt in their words as if he is to be detested for this. You know, the type of people depicted in Armor and Sword. And believe me, I've had enough discussions and debates with christians to know that there are plenty of them out there. There are some out there that see atheists and other non-believers like me as a real threat.   The majority of christians in this country are moderates and bother no one. But it is frightening how much political clout that the relative minority of evangelicals - that includes clowns like Pat Robertson - have attained. Our own president, Bush Sr., was quoted once as saying that he didn't think that atheists should be regarded as citizens. This should frighten everybody on both sides of the faith fence. I don't see you mentioning Islam or any other faith, why is that?? I find it hilarious how People are too politically correct to step outside of this realm   BTW the song is my least favorite, the music is good but we hear this from Neil all the time. it get's old Would it matter if I did? If you want me to say that I think radical islam is dangerous then I'll say it: Radical islam is dangerous. Believe me, I have no use for political correctness. If I see a turd in the punchbowl then I'm gonna let everyone know about it. No, I speak mostly about christianity because it's where most of my experiences with religion come from.   What pisses me off about religion (and probably pisses Neil off too) is that I or someone I love could be killed because of the concept of a god that was invented thousands of years ago that I don't even share. I might become collateral damage in a war that has nothing to do with me.   So tell me this, do you feel the same way about let's say the dictator of North Korea who is an atheist himself. Who has persecuted, tortured and starved millions for decades. for what??? nothing. What a waist of life not letting others to live in freedom to express there FAITH in God or anything they desire. Isn't that a double standard?   BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in Somebody's craaanky.   Look, I talked about my experiences with christians. I'll not be chastised just because I happened not to mention the North Korean dictator or anybody else who's killed for their beliefs. If it will make you feel better I'll officially state that I think it's wrong for anyone to kill or oppress people in the name of religion or politics. Satisfied? And I never saw the point in arguing body counts by atheists and religionists. If you've gone that far then the debate is lost by both sides. What is one to say; "I think I'll become a christian because they've killed less people"? Nay, this is one of the reasons I got away from religion.   I think maybe you've misconstrued the things I said or perceived a slight that wasn't there. Most of the people I know are christians and are fine people. If you mistook my statements as anti-christian then maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been. My beef is with those who would use their beliefs as a sword like in the song.   I like you too much to let this come between us troutman so maybe we oughta lay off this topic. But I will say this; This thread and others like it are exactly what Neil was talking about. Has anyone else noticed this? First of all I am not cranky just the opposite. I am just posting the way I see things here as they are. I harbor no ill feelings towards you or anybody else here ok. And yes, I was just thinking the same thing I am out of this thread also. It is getting way off topic in alott of ways. I guess my point again was regardless of ones beliefs we should all respect one another that's all. Religion isn't all of the cause of the worlds problems. In fact it does a tremendous service to millions of people around the world as do those who are nonbelievers. Anyway, it's been fun talking about this topic.   Rock on Neil and all who love

[RUSHMUSE]

QUOTE (hope70 @ May 23 2007, 04:56 PM)

QUOTE (RUSHMUSE @ May 23 2007, 01:08 PM) ...BTW, maybe on the next album Neil can write Faithless Book II. All of those persecuted around the world for there FAITH in whatever religion they so desire to believe in " Most people who are persecuted for having a particular faith are persecuted by those who have a DIFFERENT faith. AND believe that persecution will get them that golden ticket to whatever they call heaven. (rewarded) Most Atheists have read Darwins Origin of Species, some consider it their "Bible", no where in this book does it encourage you to attack those that don't share your beliefs, like it does in the Koran and The Old Testament. The Old Testament encourages you to attack those that don't share your beliefs??? Yes. If you would like some direct quotes PM me.

[faultline]

QUOTE (deslock @ May 23 2007, 09:10 AM)

As far as the rest of your points go about persecution/harassment of Christians, read up on them and you'll find that in many cases, the story was exaggerated or is outright false. A lot of blogs, commentators, politicians, and pundits sensationalize this sort of stuff to get a reaction/ratings/etc (ie see the War on Christmas). Of course some of that sort of thing has happened, but the point is that it's disingenuous for them to frame it as widespread. As far as your historical bullets go, most are a bit off-topic (or at least tangential) and probably belong in the religious forum (as does much of the stuff in this thread). I'm only posting here as I've been a member for over a year but do not have enough posts to access it (though this might actually be my 100th post so at some point I'll meander over there).

Well deslock, I dont think that you and I are too far off in some observations.

It was only after you listed a litany of woes for being an athiest in the USA, that I listed my disingenuous persecutions that Christians may be suffering under. Which is my point , and partly my point of this whole thread, that neither the believer or unbeliever is suffering under noteworthy persecution in North America. I thought that by inverting/converting "Faithless" to "Faith" I would expose "Faithless" as maybe being overdramatic , and not really that brave afterall.

(incedently no one has arrived to such a conclusion in their posting )

 

As far as my historical bullets go, I was answering some of you assertions about faith in politcis and its biases against athiesm.

Let us not forget that no one thought that Catholic JFK could be elected because of his religion. I dont think that was because people were anti-catholic, but because they did not want a president who being shaping US policy with accountability to the Pope. If people dont want an athiest President,it maybe for reason otherthan being prejudice.

 

It is hard to say that my comments belong in a religious forum as does "Snakes and Arrows". It is religious and spiritual in nature.

 

It is true that I tied some of my frustration with "Armor and Sword" by bringing up the Abolitionist movement, as it is things like this that are the true sword of Christianity , as well as the Mother Teresas out there. Neil seems to fear the notion of even having a sword, hmm it just needs to be the right kind, afterall, the world is 'somehow so badly arranged'. It is time to take an offensive campaign, not retreat in our armor, otherwise it just stays the same.

[Ghost of a Rider]

QUOTE (faultline @ May 24 2007, 02:58 AM)

As far as my historical bullets go, I was answering some of you assertions about faith in politcis and its biases against athiesm. Let us not forget that no one thought that Catholic JFK could be elected because of his religion. I dont think that was because people were anti-catholic, but because they did not want a president who being shaping US policy with accountability to the Pope. If people dont want an athiest President,it maybe for reason otherthan being prejudice. It is hard to say that my comments belong in a religious forum as does "Snakes and Arrows". It is religious and spiritual in nature.

According to surveys, atheists are the least trusted people in our society. This stems from the fact that many christians feel atheists are not on the same moral footing (something that gets my hackles up). But in my experience, morality is relative to the individual anyway. Further, other surveys show that atheists and non-christians do not make up the majority of criminals in this country.

What does all this mean, that christians are more inclined to criminal behavior? No. What it says to me is that merely calling yourself a christian or atheist or whatever doesn't mean squat. Each of us is either good or bad in spite of our beliefs, not because of them. It is due to our individual actions. We change ourselves for our beliefs, our beliefs do not change us.

 

Having said that, we may have an atheist in the White House one day and it will be neither a good thing nor a bad thing. If the guy (or gal) performs badly it won't be because he's an atheist. Goodness knows we've had some really bad christian presidents but we've also had good ones. So again, the beliefs don't mean squat and hopefully folks will learn this before too long.

[deslock]

QUOTE (faultline @ May 24 2007, 02:58 AM)

Well deslock, I dont think that you and I are too far off in some observations. It was only after you listed a litany of woes for being an athiest in the USA, that I listed my disingenuous persecutions that Christians may be suffering under.  Which is my point , and partly my point of this whole thread, that neither the believer or unbeliever is suffering under noteworthy persecution in North America. I thought that by inverting/converting "Faithless" to "Faith"  I would expose "Faithless" as maybe being overdramatic , and not really that brave afterall.

I never claimed that atheists were suffering or under noteworthy persecution, but that atheists are not accepted in the USA the way religious people are (especially Christians). My list shows examples of that and how religion is dominant in the USA (a few instances where separation of church and state were brought up hasn't changed that).

 

In this song, Neil states why he rejects zealots and evangelicals, how he feels when they try to push their religion on him, and how he gets by without faith. Given all that and since culture and policies in the USA are so faith-based, inverting the song as you did isn't logical.

 

QUOTE (faultline @ May 24 2007, 02:58 AM)

If people dont want an athiest President,it maybe for reason otherthan being prejudice.

What reasons would someone have to exclude an atheist without knowing anything else about him/her?

 

QUOTE (faultline @ May 24 2007, 02:58 AM)

It is true that I tied  some of my frustration with "Armor and Sword" by bringing up the Abolitionist movement, as it is things like this that are the true sword of Christianity , as well as the Mother Teresas out there. Neil seems to fear the notion of even having a sword, hmm it just needs to be the right kind, afterall, the world is 'somehow so badly arranged'. It is time to take an offensive campaign, not retreat in our armor, otherwise it just stays the same.

Have you read Neil's explanation of what he means by armor and sword? He spells it out plain as day, and your suggestion that the world needs a religious sword or that there can be a "right kind" of religious sword indicates that you don't understand his analogy. Again, from previous posts:

http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?show...40entry881163

[faultline]

QUOTE (Ghost of a Rider @ May 24 2007, 06:30 PM)

Having said that, we may have an atheist in the White House one day and it will be neither a good thing nor a bad thing. If the guy (or gal) performs badly it won't be because he's an atheist. Goodness knows we've had some really bad christian presidents but we've also had good ones. So again, the beliefs don't mean squat and hopefully folks will learn this before too long.

Hopefully , but people are usually sucked in by empty rhetoric; unfortunately christians can be very gullible.

I would rather have a competent athiest surgeon doing surgery on me , than an incompetent christian; and I would rather have a good athiest president than a poor christian one.