Entre_Perpetuo

Happy 21-12-2016 :) http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?/topic/101244-entre-finally-shares-his-rush-essay-4000-words-abstract/

Welp folks, now that I have my diploma from the IB and there's no way they can take that away from me, and armed with the ignorance of whether or not they'd allow this, I present to you my 4000 word essay on Rush's 2112, plus a 200+ word abstract. Also, missing here is the title page, which contained a bunch of info that might be useless to you, except for a small dedication. The dedication reads as follows: "Dedicated to my father, who first shared with me the wonder that is Rush" Thanks Dad. Anyway, here's the essay...copy pasted from Pages on my iPad (forgive the rough formatting) Abstract This investigation answers the following research question: how have the lyrics and symbols presented on Rush's 1976 album, 2112, consistently affected various generations of listeners strongly enough to induct them into the band's massive fan-base? The scope of this question, though large, is adequately pared-down to fit the intended scope of this investigation, which is not to exceed 4,000 words. Though literary analysis is included in this investigation as it attempts to discover meaning in the lyrics and symbols of 2112, a close reading or close analysis of the text is avoided due to the potentially excessive length of such an analysis. It is sufficiently supplanted with critical and personal analysis for the purposes of this investigation, which focuses not just on the meaning of the text, but also on its cultural context and lasting impact on the history of North American rock music. For research materials, this investigation utilizes various secondary sources in the forms of Internet articles, analytical books, and film documentaries mostly centered on the story of Rush. It also makes use of two primary sources: a used vinyl record of Rush's 2112 album and an Internet survey conducted by the author of this investigation on a popular Rush fan-site. The conclusion reached by this investigation is that the lyrics and symbols of Rush's 2112 have affected various generations of listeners strongly enough to induct them into Rush's fan-base 1) through universal message and appeal, 2) through initial success and influence, and 3) through direction of the album's music. Word count: 256 Table of Contents Abstract pg. 1 Table of Contents pg. 2 Introduction pg. 3 Background of Rush and 2112 pg. 5 Analysis of the 2112 Concept pg. 7 Analyzing the Real-World Success and Influence of 2112 pg. 11 Conclusion pg. 14 Works Cited pg. 16 Introduction Rush is a Canadian progressive rock band which began as a small garage band in Toronto during 1968 and gradually garnered international acclaim and success over the course of the next forty-eight years, becoming one of the most popular rock bands of all time. Between the release of Rush's self-titled debut album in 1974 and the conclusion of the band's fortieth anniversary R40 Tour in 2015, Rush has experienced only one major lineup change and one five-year hiatus, a rare feat for a rock band from the late sixties and early seventies. Much of the reason for the band's lasting success has been it's enormous and fiercely dedicated fan-base, which first took on these characteristics following the release of Rush's seminal fourth album, entitled 2112. This essay attempts to answer the following research question: how have the lyrics and symbols presented on Rush's 1976 album, 2112, consistently affected various generations of listeners strongly enough to induct them into the band's massive fan-base? This topic is worthy of investigation because the success story of Rush is highly unusual for a rock band of its time period, Rush's fan-base is both unique in its characteristics and its role in the band's success story, and 2112 is among the most notable and defining albums in the history of rock music. This research question fits solidly into the subject of Language A, specifically under Group I, Category Three, based on the following two sets of criteria taken from the IB extended essay guide. Firstly, under this subject, research questions are intended to be specific and sharply focused, stated clearly in the introduction of the essay or on the title page, and related to the target language. Because the research question posed above falls under a topic as narrow as the effects of a single rock album on the fan-base of a single rock band, it is easily specific enough and sharply focused enough for the first criteria. As shown above, the research question is clearly stated in the introduction of this essay, satisfying the second criteria. Satisfying the third criteria, the lyrics of 2112 referenced in the research question are entirely in English, which is the target language of this essay. Secondly, essays under this subject should allow the writer to develop skills of textual analysis by considering how language, culture, and context influence the ways in which meaning is constructed in texts, to think critically about the different interactions which exist between texts, audiences, and purposes, and to develop the ability to convey views persuasively and in a well-structured manner, using an appropriate academic register. The research question for this essay allows the first criteria to be met by leading research in the direction of language, culture, and context investigation. The second criteria can be met under this research question as it focuses on the effects of the texts in 2112 on specific audiences and how the purpose behind these texts might have appealed to these audiences. Lastly, since the research question meets the first set of criteria, it allows room for a hypothesis, plentiful and specific research, persuasive presentation of evidence, all other necessary argumentative elements, and a solid conclusion, all given via appropriate, scholarly register. This research question meets all of the necessary criteria for a Group I, Category Three, Language A extended essay. In order to answer this research question, the first step of the research process shall be collecting information from a variety of secondary sources, including biographical books, documentary films, and internet articles, regarding the topic at hand. The next step shall be to search for and collect information from a set of primary sources, including an official printing of the LP vinyl record of 2112 containing the complete lyrics and associated texts as well as a survey of real fans of the band from multiple generations. Once this research is complete, the accompanying essay will adhere to the following structure. First, it shall be necessary to explain the historical and musical context and background of the writing, recording, and release of 2112. Next, both personal and secondary analyses and interpretations of the language conventions of 2112 shall be provided and considered, covering both the English texts and the associated symbols found on the album cover. Lastly, personal and secondary analyses and interpretation of the real-world success, influence, and divisiveness of 2112 shall be provided and considered. By the end of the third argumentative stage of this essay, an educated and logically constructed conclusion shall be presented as an answer to the research question. It is likely this conclusion shall find that the themes and language conventions found in the texts of 2112 may be rooted in a specific historical and cultural context, but they have a universal message and appeal which has supported the continued relevancy of the album among fans of varying generations into the present day. Background of Rush and 2112 Rush began in 1968 as a small garage band of soon-to-be high school drop-outs from Toronto, Canada, which was not a common area for a hard rock band of their kind to gain success. After a number of early, unimportant lineup changes, Rush established its first major lineup as "hard rock purist" (Rush, 2112) John Rutsey on drums and best friends Alex Lifeson (born Aleksandar Živojinović) and Geddy Lee (son of Holocaust survivors, born Gary Weinrib) playing guitar and bass guitar, respectively, with Geddy also covering all singing duties. The band's early musical style was much more akin to the hard rock of early Led Zeppelin and Cream than "that virtuoso "art" style noted for its experimental blending of rock, classical, jazz, and other idioms" (Sciabarra) known as Progressive rock, the latter of which Geddy and Alex followed more and more intently. Between 1974 and 1976, Rush independently recorded its self-titled debut album, stylistically similar to Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, found success and a record contract in America through the popularity of their song "Working Man" in Cleveland, let go of initial drummer John Rutsey due to his poor reaction to the band's newfound success, replaced him with virtuoso drummer Neil Peart, went on two increasingly successful tours and recorded an even more successful album with Peart, wrote and performed increasingly progressive rock music, decided Peart would act as Rush's primary lyricist as soon as they began recording their second album, and recorded and toured in support of a noticeably less successful third album, that tour being nicknamed by the band as the "Down the Tubes" Tour. This lead Rush's record label, Mercury records, to demand that the band write more commercial music lest they be dropped from the label, and this was the response given only after Rush's manager, Ray Daniels, met with the label to plead Rush's case. Rush, however, had no intention of meeting their label's request, preferring to go out with a bang than compromise their vision. Thus, the band entered the recording studio with their longtime producer, Terry Brown, full of anger and self-righteous devotion, had "a stylistic breakthrough" (Rush, 2112) according to Geddy Lee and created their best album yet. Empathizing with the plights of the protagonists of many of Ayn Rand's books, of which Neil Peart was an avid reader, the drummer-lyricist concocted a story plotting a free thinking individual against a collectivistic society entitled "2112," which ended up partly resembling the plot of Ayn Rand's Anthem. Peart now reflects "I thought I had to say something about Ayn Rand and the association with 2112, so I put, "with acknowledgement to the genius of Ayn Rand" (Rush, 2112). The connection with the often detested Rand brought the band a great deal of lasting bad publicity, though the album became a huge success, "going gold a year and a half after issue" (Popoff) and changing "the entire trajectory of their history, and, in fact, given Rush's importance and longest its, the history of rock itself" (Birzer). Analysis of the 2112 Concept In order to determine the reason behind 2112's influence on the construction of Rush's fan-base, it is necessary to first provide a brief overview of the plot of the album's title track, the source and main focus of its concept, then to analyze the themes and meanings of 2112 through Peart's use of two writing genres, critical interpretation, and an examination of the symbols of 2112. While a close reading of any literary text may be preferable in deciphering meaning, it would be far too lengthy and detailed to fit into this investigation, thus it shall be supplanted with critical and personal analysis. To begin, Neil Peart has provided an excellent and brief overview of the plot, which is as follows: "The cycle begins with an "Overture," then the discovery of the guitar and music. Guitars don't exist in the Solar Fedaration because the computers won't allow music--it's not logical. Then there's the "Presentation," where the hero brings his guitar to the priests in the temples of Syrinx. But the acolytes smash it up and send him away. And he has a dream about a planet, established simultaneously with the Solar Federation, where all the creative people went. He's never seen anything like it before, this alternate way of life; even the way they build cities is totally different. And he gets more and more depressed because he realizes that his music is a part of that civilization and he can never be a part of it. But in the end he finds that the planet is real and things do change for him" (Popoff). --Neil Peart It must be noted that Neil does not mention the supposed death of his hero at the end of the plot in this overview, a death which is supported by his own lyrics and narration in movement "Soliloquy" as the hero laments "my last hope is that with my death I may pass into the world of my dream" and later cries "my lifeblood spills over . . ." This adds to the confusion of Neil's open ended plot, but that will be covered later in this investigation. The first notable choice Peart makes as the author is the choice to relate this story via two genres of writing, poetry (i.e. lyrics) and prose. The original album sleeve for 2112 is a gatefold cover, meaning it opens like a book to create twice as much space for linear notes, lyrics, artwork, and whatever else the artist desires. This gatefold cover allows Peart enough room to include not only the lyrics to "2112," but also extra narration which could not be fit into the song itself. To differentiate the two, Neil writes the lyrics in poetic form, from multiple perspectives, and in the present tense, whereas he writes the narrated supplements as prose, from only one perspective, and in both the past and present tenses. He also intersperses the narrated supplements throughout the printed lyrics, the first passage even spreading onto the back cover of the album sleeve as a kind of introductory piece to grab the attention of potential listeners. The story can be understood via the lyrics alone, but the supplementary narrations provide useful context and clarification. Peart writes these narrations from the perspective of the hero in the story, clearly stating the content of each movement in either present or past tense and often then leading into the next movement in present tense. The passages are separated not only by the printed lyrics, but also by ellipses, to further give the impression that the narration is separate from the lyrics. In order to understand the purpose of the narration in "2112," it is important to understand that "Peart considered the story of 2112 as nothing more than a warning--not a prediction of what was to come but of what might come" (Birzer). If "2112" is meant as a warning, it would only make sense to include narration interspersed between the lyrics, not to tell the story twice but to provide vital, contextual information as how not to let this tragic story become a reality. However, "2112" is much more than just a warning to many fans and critics. Themes such as individualism, perseverance, freedom, and creativity pervade this story of a free human being standing up for himself against an oppressive, collectivistic regime, armed only with a guitar. Reflects Geddy Lee, "it's about creative freedom. it's about belief, believing in yourself" (Rush, 2112). Most critics agree with this thematic interpretation, because even "though the protagonist of 2112 ends his own life, in classical and Stoic fashion, he also won [sic] by denying the collectivist society from wielding any further control over his destiny" (Birzer). Despite this consensus, two major interpretive details are often argued over by fans and critics alike: 1) the conclusion of the plot and 2) the similarity to Ayn Rand's Anthem. As the final lines of the piece, "attention all planets of the solar federation" and "we have assumed control," are not identified in the linear notes of the album, nor is are any other lyrics or narratives provided to describe the ending of the plot, most fans and critics interpret the end of "2112" in one of two ways, "that either (1) the "elder race" (i.e. the preauthoritarian society) has returned to regain its earlier control, or (2) the priest collective has ramped up its recent control" (Bowman). Rush expert, Bradley Birzer, sides with the first interpretation, illustrating "representatives of the glorious elder race return in great numbers and announce--with loudness and confidence--that they have resumed [sic] control" (Birzer), whereas another Rush specialist, Durrell Bowman, writes "it seems unlikely, because Peart abhors authoritarianism. If the elder race is wise (on Peart's terms anyhow) it would not "assume control." Also, if it is about to return, why would our hero kill himself?" (Bowman). Interestingly, another Rush and Ayn Rand expert, Megan Volpert, seems to side with the first interpretation, but in a pessimistic manner, declaring "we have no reason to believe that the defeat of the Temples of Syrinx means a more permissive attitude toward guitar heroes" (Rush v. Rand). Though, seeing as Peart himself has referred to the speakers of those last two lines as "the good guys" (Rush, 2112) and "the cavalry" (Rush, 2112), the intended interpretation is definitely the more positive former rather the more sinister latter. Yet, ultimately, the conclusion is open ended, as "listeners receive only a very general idea of what is going on and thus may not correctly interpret the intended meaning" (Bowman). Critics also debate the similarities of "2112" with Ayn Rand's Anthem with regular frequency. While some argue that "Rand's individualism and supreme belief in human agency is the chief inspiration for Rush's brand of Progressive rock" (Sciabarra), or that "the key to understanding the piece . . . is its "acknowledgement to the genius of Ayn Rand" (Sciabarra), a more realistic comparison finds that the two stories do share noticeable plot similarities and parallels, but "ultimately, though, it is not much like Ayn Rand's Anthem" (Bowman). Rand's novelette ends with the protagonist running away to live in the mountains and plot revenge on his former society with the love of his life, but "the vengeful fantasies of "Anthem" fade quickly away in this darker tale as our hero lapses into despair and eventually kills himself" (Rush v. Rand). Lastly in this section, the iconic "five-pointed star graphic" designed by Hugh Syme, commonly known as the Starman, is analyzed. This graphic is not only important to 2112, but it is highly important to the band's entire career, as they adopted "the cover art from 2112 as their subsequent logo. It is symbolic of the two opposing forces in the story as "the red star . . . represents the dastardly Solar Federation, while the naked man on the version within the gatefold . . . represents unadorned freedom, individuality, man without trappings" (Popoff). Stated directly, "their Starman is the solitary individual who pushes back against the evil red pentagram of collectivism with both hands" (Rush v. Rand). Though some religious groups labeled the band as Satanists for their usage of a pentagram image, "Satanists actually position pentagram a with a single point pointing downward (not upward), not to mention that recoiling from an image means the complete opposite of endorsing its meaning" (Bowman). Analyzing the Real-World Success and Influence of 2112 Since 2112 is a product of its time period, it is important to examine how it fits into the cultural context of 1976 in order to understand its initial ability to draw listeners into Rush's passionate fandom. It has been shown time and time again that the majority of Rush's fanbase has always been, and remains to this day, predominately comprised of white males, such as the author of this investigation. However, in 1976, these white males were also predominately middle-American and in their teens and twenties, "suffering through defeat in Vietnam (and elsewhere), cowering to the Soviets, surviving Watergate with nothing more that intense cynicism toward all politics, and limping along economically" (Birzer). In regards to the album's success, "one might argue progressive rock was at its peak" (Popoff) or that "hatred of communism and conformism as well as patriotic (not nationalist) love of America would cause young American males to sympathize with the protagonist of 2112" (Birzer). In the aftermath of the counterculture and activist movements of the 1960s, ""2112" lyrically transliterated certain postcollectivist, postactivist, and post-counter cultural ideas for the rock generation of the 1970s and beyond" (Bowman). It may be argued that "2112" promoted certain sixties ideals or that it "may have seemed a bit like . . . Timothy Leary's famous 1976 countercultural, hippie phrase: "turn on, tune in, drop out." However, Rush's hero doesn't actually want to "drop out" . . . he wants to bring what he learned back to society. . . . If it thus inscribed a kind of "post counterculture," then maybe it's just culture" (Bowman). It seems increasingly likely that much of the white, male youth of middle-America felt a similar sense of injustice due to their political and cultural environment in 1976 as the members of Rush felt due to the demands of their record label. Thus, when Rush expressed that sense of injustice lyrically and musically on 2112, it touched a nerve with much of this large audience, also providing them with the confidence and determination to follow their own path and resist oppression, just like the hero of "2112", and just like the members of Rush themselves. These culturally downtrodden teens and twenty-somethings discovered their common plight with both Rush and each other by listening to "2112," thus cementing them as lifelong fans of the band, and beginning the tradition of Rush's close-knit, passionate, and inviting fan-base, sometimes jokingly referred to as a cult. Durrell Bowman agrees, writing "the "2112" scenario parallels the similar concerns about social and moral contributions expressed by working-class, early 1970s, late teens in sociological research of the 1980s" (Bowman). However, the lyrics did not play the only role in creating this fans-base in 1976, as "manager Ray Daniels also attributes the album's success to three other factors: (1) the steadfast belief the band had in their art, resulting in an album even Mercury had to admit was objectively "good"; (2) the workable six-digit fan base built by the first three albums; and (Birzer) the fact that Caress of Steel [Rush's less successful third album] was toured unflaggingly, despite the blank stares from the few who showed up. Plus, once 2112 emerged, Rush hit the road just as hard" (Popoff). In addition, producer Terry Brown believes "the audience was attracted to Rush because they were heavy" (Rush, 2112), but just "as well, FM had entered a golden period. It was not uncommon for DJ's to play all of the title track in one large and uninterrupted meal of escapist stoner rock" (Popoff). Obviously, various factors contributed to the success of 2112 upon its initial release. The amazing thing about 2112, though, is certainly its longetivity. While many successful bands of the 1970s turned out to be flashes in the pan, with records that were mostly forgotten decades down the road, Rush and its lengthy discography, and especially 2112, has shown an incredible ability to last and resonate deeply with listeners not just from the 1970s, but from every decade between then and now. This album has continued to influence the history of rock music from the time of its release through the present day, not least through the wildly successful modern American Progressive heavy metal band, Dream Theater, who's guitarist, John Petrucci, claims ""2112" basically set the course for my musical career and how I approached Dream Theater" (Petrucci). He further explains "the idea of a big piece like that being broken down into numbered sections like they were chapters in a book was just unbelievable to me, and it's a technique that I continue to use to this day" (Petrucci), obviously solidifying the idea of 2112's lasting impact on rock music and on growing Rush's fan-base, Petrucci affirming "if I had to pick a favorite band of all time, it would be Rush" (Petrucci). Statistics show similar results, with a survey taken on therushforum.com--a large website where Rush fans congregate to discuss the band and other topics--by the author of this investigation (under the screen name "Entre_Perpetuo") showing that 63.38% of fans out of a pool of seventy-one users voted "yes" to the question "did 2112 (album and/or song) play a major role in your induction into the Rush fan-base?" (Entre_Perpeto). It must be noted though, that 65.79% of these users answered "Older (70s - 80s)" to the question "would you consider yourself a newer or an older Rush fan?" (Entre_Perpetuo), and only one user answered "Lyrics and Symbols" to the question "which has had more effect on you, the lyrics and symbols or the music of 2112 (album and/or song)?" (Entre_Perpetuo). Nevertheless, the album has obviously has obviously been a common entryway into the Rush fan-base ever since its release in 1976, especially since "Rush provided the soundtrack for high schoolers from the mid-1970s to the mid 1990s" (Birzer) and 2112 has been among the band's best selling albums throughout that entire time period and beyond, and portions of its title track have been played on every single major Rush tour since 1976. Despite the misunderstandings of decades of rock music critics, the band's fan-base has continued to grow, and with no small thanks to 2112, which gave Rush the freedom to continue developing their artistic vision for decades to come. As Geddy Lee summarizes, "there's a message in "2112" that resonates with people and continues to resonate with people, and I think that's what has given it its longetivity" (Rush, 2112). Conclusion Considering both the findings presented in secondary sources, as well as personal interpretation and surveyed statistics, there is ample evidence to conclude that the lyrics and symbols of 2112 have been able to consistently affect various generations of listeners so strongly in three major fashions. Firstly, in accordance with the initial hypothesis of this investigation, 2112's themes have a universal message and appeal which can resonate with anyone who values freedom, individualism, and perseverance. Secondly, the initial success and influence of the album created the opportunity for the band's later successes and for the continued induction of new members into Rush's fan-base for years to come. Lastly, 2112's symbols and lyrics provided an assured direction for its music, which has often the main appeal of the album to old and new fans alike. In these ways, the lyrics and symbols of Rush's 2112 have affected various generations on listeners strongly enough to induct them into the band's massive fan-base. Works Cited Birzer, Bradley J. Neil Peart: Cultural Repercussions. Colorado Springs, CO: Wordfire Press, 2015. Print. Bowman, Durrell. Experiencing Rush: A Listener's Companion. Latham, Maryland: Rowman & Littlefield, 2015. Print. Collins, John. Rush: Chemist®y. London: Helter Skelter, 2010. Print. Entre_Perpetuo, (2016, March 5). Three survey type questions for research purposes [poll]. Archived at http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?/topic/98278-three- survey-type-questions-for-research-purposes/page__mode__show Petrucci, John. "John Petrucci of Dream Theater Discusses Rush's '2112' - The Record That Changed My Life." John Petrucci of Dream Theater Discusses Rush's '2112' - The Record That Changed My Life. Guitar World, 14 July 2014. Web. 09 Apr. 2015. Popoff, Martin. Rush: The Illustrated History. Minneapolis: Voyageur Press, 2013. Rush, 2112; Rush, Moving Pictures. Dir. Martin R. Smith. Eagle Vision, 2010. DVD. Rush: Beyond the Lighted Stage. Dir. Scot McFadyen and Sam Dunn. Perf. Geddy Lee, Neil Peart, Alex Lifeson. Banger Films, 2010. DVD. "Rush v. Rand: Judge Patty Hearst Presiding - Frontier Psychiatrist." Frontier Psychiatrist. Frontier Psychiatrist, 28 Aug. 2013. Web. 09 Apr. 2015. Rush. 2112. Anthem, 1976. LP. Rush, 2112; Rush, Moving Pictures. Dir. Martin R. Smith. Eagle Vision, 2010. DVD. Sciabarra, Chris M. "Rand, Rush, and Rock." The Journal of Ayn Rand Studies 4.7 (2002): 161-85. Nyu.edu. The Pennsylvania State University Press. Web. 1 Mar. 2015. Happy 21-12-2016 :)

Entre!!!!! Please send me your essay in a PM!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!! TRUST ME!!!! I want to read it. I can do you one better. I can make a topic of it. I finally got my diploma from the IB, which means they can't do anything about me posting it online, though I doubt they would anyway. So let me just see what I can do...

I wrote a 4000 word essay on this earlier in the year. I had to stop and go back and rewrite most of it like four times cuz I couldn't seem to keep it down to 4000. Given total freedom...it might've been the size of a small book. Anyway, with the concession that Cygnus X-1 (Book I) is my favorite Rush song ever, 2112 is the best thing they ever did. It's the best thing most bands never did. It's the stuff of legend.

Too many, he was a Page level riff master, maybe better...probably better.

I do prefer Summer...but it's good to be home and on the Rush Forum for the holidays! :)

And yet Kiss Alive! remains the golden standard all live albums have to live up to.

Best of the year for me.

Still no answer for the lack of Kiss and Queen, and Bowie for that matter?

Fraroc, you're mistaken. Those are 80s hair metal bands, not 70s glam rock bands. Though I certain glam had a huge impact on hair metal.

They induct rap and hip hop artists. There should be no surprise. I know they do, but they should stop. They don't belong in the ROCK AND ROLL Hall of Fame! It's roots and beginnings are as rock and roll as any other rock genre. I don't dislike rap anymore, but if you have a hip hop artist under the rock and roll category, talking music specifically rather than attitude, a problem has occurred.

Why not Kiss or Queen???

Man that sucks, I read their (free) articles all the time. I get e-mails from them like every day. I think that's where I heard Bob Dylan won the Nobel prize. I hope they're able to keep the magazines going.

I love Rainbow but I can't deny Odeon either. I can't wait to get to the later live releases, but alas I haven't gotten there yet. Perhaps Live Killers will be next, it has been a year since I got Odeon. Also, check out the YouTube videos of their Live Aid performance ASAP. Sure it's more common material of them, but it's also one of the absolute greatest rock performances ever given. I was told they stole the show, and I haven't the slightest clue how anyone could've topped that show after watching it.

An amazing post. Sorry we don't see eye to eye on Green Day. I wasn't angry. I just love ripping that horrific local band of crap. I'm not an angry guy. Just love to stir the pot. Lol, thanks again Earl. I forgive you Green Day, it doesn't matter, they're pretty devicive and I get that. Love your posts too, man. Keep on, keepin' on.

Nice write up!! I love the cover of Wind & Wuthering. One of my all time favorites! Thanks! Yeah, I've grown to appreciate WaW's cover art, but I still won't say it's great.

Man, I wish I could go see them. They must be so much fun live, I mean ALL those songs everyone loves and all that energy, betcha they'll be (quite literally) bouncing off the walls. Also reminded of how I saw a video of Green Day and U2 reopening the Saint's stadium in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. Even from a video recording it was one of the more powerful and emotionally satisfying performances I've ever seen. Like them or not, they have a way with a crowd. They really matter to people.

You know he was a heroin addict from about 1975 until 1980, right? Are you talking about before 1975? I tend to assume nearly anyone famous in that decade was on some kind of drugs, but most of them still manage to sound consistenly good, bad, average, inspiring, etc. Page just makes me mad because I often feel like he had much more potential had he just worked harder. are you talking about his live performances? I don't find page's studio work sloppy or amateur at all. maybe "loose" or "unstructured" at times, but led zeppelin doesn't need al di meola or allan holdsworth. page's flaws just add to the sexiness of the led! Well amateur might not be the right word, but I often get the impression that he could play better but doesn't care enough to, now that I think about it I don't really hear much if this on Zep II, so maybe it came with fame. The sloppiness is the bluesy aspect of Zeppelin. It's intentional. Jimmy Page was the top session musician in England pre-Led Zeppelin. You don't achieve that by being a "sloppy" player. I once bought into the "Jimmy Page is a sloppy player" narrative. But, when I give Led Zeppelin a focused listen I find his playing anything but sloppy. Raw. Emotional. Free. At times, brilliant. But not sloppy. Well, I don't think listening any closer is gonna make me think he couldn't've played better at this point, though I do think he could be an amazing player when he wanted to and certainly had the background for it. Once again, maybe I'm choosing the wrong words ("amateurish," "sloppy"), but something about roughly half of his playing rubs me the wrong way and comes off as kind of not-cared-for. He does have some particularly great moments on most tracks though, and somehow the guitar break in Heartbreaker manages to take exactly what I'm talking about with him and turns it into something wonderful and extraordinary, where it usually comes off as under rehearsed or underwritten or something. Spontanaity's great and totally bluesy/jazzy when it sounds good, but when you're just making noise up there because you've not put much thought into what you'll play, you tend to lose my attention and a bit of my respect. I think you are so far off base in your critiques of Page. I never find him giving anything but top notch guitar playing. He is the riff-meister general with good reason. I think it's interesting you resurrect this thread to critique my criticizing, lol. I do love Led Zep, all four of them, when I'm in the right mood. I think when I wrote that I just wasn't in the right headspace, or I was just annoyed that I didn't click with them as much as I'd like to.

We have. It's an 8 month old thread so it's probably the same one you remember from before. :P That could be it, lol.

Another interesting thing about these two bands, Genesis almost always takes longer to pull me in, and is always more rewarding in the end. You see, the first Yes album I heard was The Yes Album, and it grabbed me immediately. It also instantly became my favorite Yes album, as none of the other ones I listened to quite topped it (CTTE of course coming as close as possible). The first Genesis album I heard was We Can't Dance, cuz it was in my parents' cd collection. I also loved this, but I never really cared to revisit it most of the time (probably because the second half is such a bore, as I later realized). Later on curiosity would lead me to look into more Yes and more Genesis, though I was more interested in Yes as I knew I liked their proggy side, whereas all I'd really heard of Genesis was post Hackett. I believe my next albums by each band were Fragile and ...And Then There Were Three (I was curious about Genesis' proggy past, but wanted the safeguard of one song of theirs that I knew already). Fragile I instantly loved, though it didn't totally click like The Yes Album (be real, there's some filler in there, and I also prefer Perpetual Change to Heart of the Sunrise). ATTWT did basically nothing for me, just a bunch of drums and keyboards banging around without anything resembling a hook until the single at the end (I wasn't listening very closely if I recall). The thing was, as much as I found I loved Yes, Fragile wore off, while I still had this lingering curiosity about Genesis, and their mysterious first singer. The next album in each camp was vitally important. CTTE, intentionally, and Nursery Cryme, on a whim (was cheap at the record store and my curiosity said Genesis... Not Yes). Close To The Edge I once again loved instantly, more so than Fragile, and I immediately understood I was listening to one of the all time greatest Prog albums. I would debate for a long time whether I preferred it to The Yes Album, but after such a time had passed that I got to know each album better, I realized CTTE, while magical and kind of perfect, had also managed to wear off on me a bit. There was something of a monotony in Yes' sound by that time (I think I'd also exposed myself to Tales and 90250 by then, Tales being the point), and they just didn't seem as personally affecting to me as I had imagined they could be, except for The Yes Album, which still rocked in every way. Nursery Cryme was an entirely different story. Much like attwt, my first Gabriel album initially seemed hookless and monotonous, nothing in particular that I cared to hear again. It also didn't help that the second side had a misprinted label for Foxtrot instead of Cryme so I had to look up the songs. I listened a bit more, having bought the record instead of just borrowing from the library like with the Yes albums (though I'd purchase a number of them), and a few things did start to catch on. Harold The Barrol was fun, and theatrically tragic, which I appreciated. The Musical Box had a guitar lead that sounded like the chorus of a Muse song, Hogweed and Seven Stones were pleasant on the ears, and Salmacis had some kind of earworm hook hidden in it that I grew to love. Now I still didn't care too much for this record, but this was my first real step in becoming a major Genesis fan. My next Yes album was probably Union (dad found a record of it discarded at goodwill or something, wonder why), but it doesn't really factor in to my opinions here, so I'll move on to 90250. This was another record I immediately loved, with it's great hit singles and some good in between tracks. However, as I began to notice a pattern, it quickly wore off and I lost much interest in it. I still like it, I still think it's great, I'll still listen to it, but it lost my interest for repeat plays. On to Genesis, my next album was the highly recommended Foxtrot. Now, this one I checked out for, the library, so I wasn't likely to pay it as much attention as one I bought, but I fully intended to give it a listen in the car. Watcher Of The Skies was an immediate standout, as it doesn't take a big Genesis fan to appreciate some drama and dramatic buildup. Unfortunately, my naive and probably distracted ears didn't really comprehend the rest of the record. I read a bunch of the lyrics to Supper's Ready as it was playing, but being in the car it kind of faded in and out and I was never sure what was going on. I knew by this s point this was considered one of those ultimate records and SR was one of the ultimate songs, progress overly speaking, but I wasn't able to decipher what all the fuss was about. (Somewhere in here I put on SEBTP on Spotify on vacation, but only noticed the entrancing synths, not really paying attention) So then we hit the next record in each department, and this becomes a major turning and understanding point for Genesis. As for yes, my next album was Tales, and though I really loved the sound and melody at the start, it was too long and monotonous for me to get through before I returned it to the library. I would later return to find I still really enjoy that whole first epic, and the rest sounds pleasant enough. As for Genesis, my next album was, oddly enough, Wind And Wuthering. I was still increasingly curious about what I was missing with this band, and I spotted another one of those early, hitless records at the record store, so I grabbed it, dismissing the utterly awful cover art (or lack therof) for potential musical satisfaction. I believe the first time I put it on I was going to bed, and I discovered it was a great record to fall asleep to, with all those synth washes and lulabye melodies. Then I discovered that I'd actually made out those synth washes and lulabye melodies, that something in there was sticking (I think it was Your Own Special Way though) I revisited this album a number of times as I discovered it had a great opener, and a great ballad. This lead me to listen back to Cryme of course, where I discovered I really did like a lot of it, and The Musical Box started creeping out as a major standout. Suddenly I had a Genesis album that I liked to listen to, if only for the headspace it's synths soundscape brought me to. Here my Genesis journey gets really recent and picks up a lot of speed, whereas Yes are stil just a great band I look into sometimes. After listening increasingly to Wind and Cryme, I decided based on my semi-recent interest (it might have been a few months) to look into Foxtrot again, figure out what I was missing. Well, as I remembered Watcher was a brilliant opener, but now I noticed how w elk they played with dynamics in it. The second song had an irresistable chorus hook that I liked. The third seemed fun and complex and once again had a great "chorus" type of hook. The fourth was interesting and had a great distorted bass pedal groove. The acoustic guitar piece was nice, and then there was Supper's Ready. Actually listening this time, I thought it very strange that it didn't have an epic intro like mist epics. It just kind of started going. As it went on I tried to follow the lyrics but got kind if hopelessly lost. I think I immediately loved Willow Farm, and Apocalypse in 9/8 seemed threatening and cool. Mostly I was confused about what it was about, so I did what I always do, I googled up some answers. Once I started reading about the song I couldn't stop. So where along the line I read Gabriel's story of the event which inspired the song and I was hooked. I listened again, this time with a head full of information that proved to be the key to unlocking this song for me. I suddenly realized how amazing it is, how epic it is, how it ran the spectrum of my emotions, how Gabriel was a genius, how Hackett could make his guitar cry, how Banks was astounding for playing that solo in a completely different time than the rythm section. Everything made sense, and then I watched avide I of them doing it live with Gabriel, and I realized I'd just discovered quite possibly my second favorite song ever. Genesis were now real contenders for becoming my fourth favorite band, permanently. I loved Foxtrot, I kept liking Wind And Wuthering, and I eventually figured out Nyrsery Cryme. I had to work hard to get there, but if was finally paying off big time. Next Yes album was Going For The One. Interesting at first with the slightly more commercial sounds, but ultimately weaker than Fragile and not inspiring. Next Genesis album was Duke. Duke began a trend of 80s Genesis albums hooking me quick and hard. I loved it at first, though I still didn't quite get why Turn It On Again was a hit. A couple listens later, it was competing for my favorite 80s Genesis song with Behind The Lines, which spoke directly to my slightly love struck heart at the time (I was in the middle of the process which led me to ask a girl to prom). Duke was excellent, though a little monotonous, but it started solid, had a highlight in the middle, and ended solid, so I loved it. After this I revisited SEBTP by checking it out, and here I became confused. I liked it, but I didn't love it. Firth Of Fifth was kinda just okay. The Cinema Show seemed like a rehash of part of Supper's ready and some neat soloing. Dancing had an uncomfortable vocal start. Epping Forest was catchy but severely lacking flow and substance. I Know What I Like was catchy but too simple. More Fool Me was nice and pretty, but obviously not what the album was about, and the other two I couldn't quite differentiate from the songs surrounding them. I decided it was somehow sterile for me, or just lacking in the songwriting department and let it slip to the bottom if my rankings. Then something interesting happened. Some time after getting the s/t (which I lived loved loved and it didn't wear off) and ABACAB (which I loved loved and it only wore off a bit), I realized I'd been listening to England a bit more, I'd been craving it a bit more. It wasn't long before I decided to buy it outright from Amazon, and after spending months with it and sleeping to it, what was meh gradually became essential, with only Battle holding it back from perfect. Once again Gabriel's Genesis had to really grow on me, but it proved all the more worth it to now really love those albums and this band. Also in there was a lot of reading about Genesis and listening to solo Gabriel (So, mainly, as someone told me my promposal reminded them of a scene in a movie featuring In Your Eyes, which I then instantly loved). Long story short, for me, Genesis is a career made for the long run, whereas Yes lack some repeatability. :D

Swear we've had this thread before, but always a fun topic if people actually talk about it. Rush - Take A Friend Fly By Night - Beneath, Between, and Behind Caress Of Steel - I Think I'm Going Bald 2112 - Tears A Farewell To Kings - Madri-cal Hemispheres - The Trees (little love for circumstances around these parts, not as much for The Trees...) Permanent Waves - Different Strings Moving Pictures - Vital Signs Signals - Chemistry Grace Under Pressure - The Body Electric...or The Enemy Within Power Windows - Emotion Detector Hold Your Fire - Tai Shan...yeah, Tai Shan Presto - Red Tide Roll The Bones - Roll The Bones (get over the rap, this song is one of the only great things on the album) Counterparts - Double Agent Test For Echo - The Color Of Right Vapor Trails - The Stars Look Down Snakes & Arrows - Spindrift Clockwork Angels - Seven Cities Of Gold

Somehow I knew

Pretty simple, which southern Californian 70s pop rock monster band do you prefer? The Eagles, or Fleetwood Mac. Inspired by the fact that I just bought Rumors and am currently listening to it. Buckingham rules.

We now share a goal.

I love Ireland!!!!!!!! You're visiting? Where in Ireland? I don't know my friend! Dublin for sure! It's a pipe dream for now!! BUT HECK YES!!! I must drink lots of Guinness. See the Phil statute. See the Rory gold guitar statue in the window of some pub!!! Shoot I didn't know those were there, lol. Now I have more things to visit when I return, thanks Earl! Also, just a suggestion, but if you're willing to make the trip to the West coast, the Cliffs of Moher are one of the most beautiful sights I've ever laid my eyes on, plus they filmed part of The Princess Bride there. Essential. Dude!!! I'm so excited!! Looking at flights!! I found an airline called WOW AIRLINES!!!! They go to Iceland! Then to CORK! 750 round trip but you can't fly alone. You need a partner!!!! 1410 round trip USD!! Expensive man, but well worth it. I went on a band trip for a week earlier this year and we marched in the Dublin St. Patrick's Day parade. One of the best weeks of my life, without question. We used Aer Lingus, which had a shamrock on the plane and those cool entertainment systems in front of your seat. Loved it.