rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Oct 20 2010, 08:26 AM) i never noticed that on rtb. i guess because it sucks so bad. EXACTLY! There are a lot of people out there, many on this forum, who when they don't like a Rush song or album, will listen to it 25 million times so they can learn to love it, but I'm not one of those people. Even still, I give Rush an inordinate amount of tries when I don't like something, much more than I would give to any other group, but at some point you just gotta throw in the towel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowdog2112 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE You got me there. There are a bunch of songs on RTB that I found so bad that I just didn't sit around and listen to them over and over and over and analyze their lyrics. Ghost of a Chance was on the radio - I couldn't miss that one. Ok, you win, he's always been bitter. Not much of a prize, but there you go... I'm not happy to win anything. But I got my answer, you simply hadn't been paying attention to him. Plus, I don't see it as him (or me) being bitter any more than you're bitter towards his perspective. He's passionate on one side and you are on the other. The assumption there is that only a miserable and angry person wouldn't believe in God. Wrong. QUOTE There are a lot of people out there, many on this forum, who when they don't like a Rush song or album, will listen to it 25 million times so they can learn to love it, but I'm not one of those people. Even still, I give Rush an inordinate amount of tries when I don't like something, much more than I would give to any other group, but at some point you just gotta throw in the towel. Fine but again, it's just the dismissive attitude that others liking different songs can only come from either being some mindless worshipper or else as the result of forcing yourself to like them out of loyalty. It's just insulting. So how often did you play Take a Friend and Need Some Love in order to force yourself to like them? Because there's no way a rational person could enjoy those if I don't. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tontonfranck Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Hmmm I made my own translation of the song. I'm not sure that deserves a 20 pages thread but I'm living in the old Europe and guess opinions about faith, religion and freewill are not that sensible. As far as I'm concerned the lyrics are very close to my beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 20 2010, 08:50 AM) QUOTE You got me there. There are a bunch of songs on RTB that I found so bad that I just didn't sit around and listen to them over and over and over and analyze their lyrics. Ghost of a Chance was on the radio - I couldn't miss that one. Ok, you win, he's always been bitter. Not much of a prize, but there you go... I'm not happy to win anything. But I got my answer, you simply hadn't been paying attention to him. Plus, I don't see it as him (or me) being bitter any more than you're bitter towards his perspective. He's passionate on one side and you are on the other. The assumption there is that only a miserable and angry person wouldn't believe in God. Wrong. QUOTE There are a lot of people out there, many on this forum, who when they don't like a Rush song or album, will listen to it 25 million times so they can learn to love it, but I'm not one of those people. Even still, I give Rush an inordinate amount of tries when I don't like something, much more than I would give to any other group, but at some point you just gotta throw in the towel. Fine but again, it's just the dismissive attitude that others liking different songs can only come from either being some mindless worshipper or else as the result of forcing yourself to like them out of loyalty. It's just insulting. So how often did you play Take a Friend and Need Some Love in order to force yourself to like them? Because there's no way a rational person could enjoy those if I don't. Oh well. Wow, there's so many assumptions in there. I do NOT believe that only "a miserable and angry person wouldn't believe in God." I also don't believe that "others liking different songs can only come from either being some mindless worshipper or else as the result of forcing yourself to like them out of loyalty." Some of that applies to some people only. I've paid attention to most lyrics, but I must admit that all of VT and some of Presto, RTB and T4E haven't gotten anywhere near as many listens form me as a lot of their other albums and/or I haven't picked some of those up in years, so they're hardly fresh in my mind. And FWIW, I loved all of the first album from the first moment I heard it and have loved it ever since, so . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun3701 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyJeff Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:03 PM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! Because they are primarily a group of musicians, not theologians or philosophers. Whatever else I may disagree with them on, their music is top shelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Running Rebel Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. It shouldn't be so "cutting". Hope, love and compassion is not strictly Christian dogma. If anyone has it, does really matter where it comes from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagegrace26 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. If anything, I think Armor & Sword is in a way mocking a spiritual, uplifting song. It's key line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" sounds like finding a path to spiritual ascension on it's own, but taken in context with the rest of the lyrics it has a more of a cynical edge that seems more like Neil intended it as 'people's silly beliefs ultimately lead to death and destruction' or 'people kill each other for what they believe in their mind is for a greater cause, but in reality it isn't". Still, that doesn't stop the song from being 'uplifting' to me in many ways. The juxtaposition of the spiritual and the cynical is in it's own way pretty powerful and the music itself carries a pretty uplifting vibe, whether or not Neil intended that is irrelevant. The song IS a double-edged sword and can be taken in any way you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Oct 20 2010, 11:16 AM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:03 PM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! Because they are primarily a group of musicians, not theologians or philosophers. Whatever else I may disagree with them on, their music is top shelf. Excellent point. I'm totally cool with them not being theologians. In terms of philosophy, well, they've always been that, and that's always been part of their appeal to so many people. That's what separates them from the AC/DC's of the world (not to put them down who are great at what they do) - the intellectual and often philosophical lyrics. As long as that's kept somewhat universal in appeal, it's hard for most people to take much issue with any of it. I just wish he toned down some of the more blatant anti-theology is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losingit2k Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:31 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. If anything, I think Armor & Sword is in a way mocking a spiritual, uplifting song. It's key line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" sounds like finding a path to spiritual ascension on it's own, but taken in context with the rest of the lyrics it has a more of a cynical edge that seems more like Neil intended it as 'people's silly beliefs ultimately lead to death and destruction' or 'people kill each other for what they believe in their mind is for a greater cause, but in reality it isn't". Still, that doesn't stop the song from being 'uplifting' to me in many ways. The juxtaposition of the spiritual and the cynical is in it's own way pretty powerful and the music itself carries a pretty uplifting vibe, whether or not Neil intended that is irrelevant. The song IS a double-edged sword and can be taken in any way you wish. I believe that the passage in question "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" doesn't mean heaven as a location more of a person perception of what his individual heaven would be. To a musican it may be success. Hence,you would need to fight for that success, it isn't going to happen by osmosis. That we as people have to fight for our visions of paradise!Hmm, I wonder who said that? I believe that's what Clockwork Angels will ultimately be about: A simple peasant who "Can't stop thinking big!" One with big dreams in a society which really doesn't have an avenue to fullfill such desires and this character is going to have to fight for his vision of heaven against all including his own religious beleifs! It's about self awakening! About personal fulfillment vs personal beliefs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowdog2112 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (losingit2k @ Oct 20 2010, 12:11 PM) QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:31 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. If anything, I think Armor & Sword is in a way mocking a spiritual, uplifting song. It's key line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" sounds like finding a path to spiritual ascension on it's own, but taken in context with the rest of the lyrics it has a more of a cynical edge that seems more like Neil intended it as 'people's silly beliefs ultimately lead to death and destruction' or 'people kill each other for what they believe in their mind is for a greater cause, but in reality it isn't". Still, that doesn't stop the song from being 'uplifting' to me in many ways. The juxtaposition of the spiritual and the cynical is in it's own way pretty powerful and the music itself carries a pretty uplifting vibe, whether or not Neil intended that is irrelevant. The song IS a double-edged sword and can be taken in any way you wish. I believe that the passage in question "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" doesn't mean heaven as a location more of a person perception of what his individual heaven would be. To a musican it may be success. Hence,you would need to fight for that success, it isn't going to happen by osmosis. That we as people have to fight for our visions of paradise!Hmm, I wonder who said that? I believe that's what Clockwork Angels will ultimately be about: A simple peasant who "Can't stop thinking big!" One with big dreams in a society which really doesn't have an avenue to fullfill such desires and this character is going to have to fight for his vision of heaven against all including his own religious beleifs! It's about self awakening! About personal fulfillment vs personal beliefs! I think the key word in that line, which is the key line in that song, is the word THEIR. To say no one gets to their heaven without a fight to me leaves things very open to interpretation. Heaven could be some kind of theological/spiritual view of heaven, or it could be just be some high level of attainment in any variety of different ways. I never thought of it as purely the former, especially given my knowledge of Neil's beliefs, but even that notwithstanding, it's worded in such a way as to leave things more open. Other parts of the song are more direct, but still it presents many different options of how one could view things. I love that universal appeal and openness in a song. Far Cry was also masterful at conveying a universal appeal and having that openness to interpretation while still making concrete philosophical statements. Other songs I obviously think were far less successful at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Oct 20 2010, 12:18 PM) I already said all this back on the first page. This is exactly what so many people seem to be missing. From the little we know of the upcoming album so far the lyrics appear to be character-driven, not Neil's direct thoughts. We have no idea what the context is yet. Some of you people might have only heard Soliloquy by itself in 1976 and thought that Neil wanted to kill himself. Give it a chance, jeez. Plus, as I just wrote above, BU2B is a song from a character's perspective which is completely without context for now so let's wait and see. I have acknowledged from pretty early on that the songs might work better in context, but at best I'm highly skeptical. For them to work in context for me, it would have to be the beginning of some kind of journey that had a far more uplifting and less cynical resolution. I can only hope for that as the best possible scenario. Then again, they chose to release those songs on their own. Taking two songs from a concept album that ultimately have a radically different meaning in context, and then releasing them out of context, seems like an odd choice. And then they proceeded to play them in concert, also without context. How could we not also interpret them at face value when they were presented to us the way they were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagegrace26 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 02:21 PM) QUOTE (losingit2k @ Oct 20 2010, 12:11 PM) QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:31 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. If anything, I think Armor & Sword is in a way mocking a spiritual, uplifting song. It's key line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" sounds like finding a path to spiritual ascension on it's own, but taken in context with the rest of the lyrics it has a more of a cynical edge that seems more like Neil intended it as 'people's silly beliefs ultimately lead to death and destruction' or 'people kill each other for what they believe in their mind is for a greater cause, but in reality it isn't". Still, that doesn't stop the song from being 'uplifting' to me in many ways. The juxtaposition of the spiritual and the cynical is in it's own way pretty powerful and the music itself carries a pretty uplifting vibe, whether or not Neil intended that is irrelevant. The song IS a double-edged sword and can be taken in any way you wish. I believe that the passage in question "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" doesn't mean heaven as a location more of a person perception of what his individual heaven would be. To a musican it may be success. Hence,you would need to fight for that success, it isn't going to happen by osmosis. That we as people have to fight for our visions of paradise!Hmm, I wonder who said that? I believe that's what Clockwork Angels will ultimately be about: A simple peasant who "Can't stop thinking big!" One with big dreams in a society which really doesn't have an avenue to fullfill such desires and this character is going to have to fight for his vision of heaven against all including his own religious beleifs! It's about self awakening! About personal fulfillment vs personal beliefs! I think the key word in that line, which is the key line in that song, is the word THEIR. To say no one gets to their heaven without a fight to me leaves things very open to interpretation. Heaven could be some kind of theological/spiritual view of heaven, or it could be just be some high level of attainment in any variety of different ways. I never thought of it as purely the former, especially given my knowledge of Neil's beliefs, but even that notwithstanding, it's worded in such a way as to leave things more open. Other parts of the song are more direct, but still it presents many different options of how one could view things. I love that universal appeal and openness in a song. Far Cry was also masterful at conveying a universal appeal and having that openness to interpretation while still making concrete philosophical statements. Other songs I obviously think were far less successful at that. But "Fight' most likely means "War" considering the rest of the songs lyrics and the entire albums theme. If you look at this way and take it literally it's pretty cynical: No one gets to their heaven without a fight. Fighting/warring for your will beliefs will get you to heaven (will kill you). I don't doubt that Peart partly intended it that way, no matter how spiritual it may sound on the surface. It's a commentary on religion based warfare and how far people will go with those beliefs. It's strongly ironic. You won't get to heaven without fighting (take 'fighting' literally). Your pursuit for heaven may kill you. So your quest for heaven will inevitably you to 'heaven' (death) in one form or another. Peart was awesome on this song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun3701 Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 03:22 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 02:21 PM) QUOTE (losingit2k @ Oct 20 2010, 12:11 PM) QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:31 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. If anything, I think Armor & Sword is in a way mocking a spiritual, uplifting song. It's key line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" sounds like finding a path to spiritual ascension on it's own, but taken in context with the rest of the lyrics it has a more of a cynical edge that seems more like Neil intended it as 'people's silly beliefs ultimately lead to death and destruction' or 'people kill each other for what they believe in their mind is for a greater cause, but in reality it isn't". Still, that doesn't stop the song from being 'uplifting' to me in many ways. The juxtaposition of the spiritual and the cynical is in it's own way pretty powerful and the music itself carries a pretty uplifting vibe, whether or not Neil intended that is irrelevant. The song IS a double-edged sword and can be taken in any way you wish. I believe that the passage in question "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" doesn't mean heaven as a location more of a person perception of what his individual heaven would be. To a musican it may be success. Hence,you would need to fight for that success, it isn't going to happen by osmosis. That we as people have to fight for our visions of paradise!Hmm, I wonder who said that? I believe that's what Clockwork Angels will ultimately be about: A simple peasant who "Can't stop thinking big!" One with big dreams in a society which really doesn't have an avenue to fullfill such desires and this character is going to have to fight for his vision of heaven against all including his own religious beleifs! It's about self awakening! About personal fulfillment vs personal beliefs! I think the key word in that line, which is the key line in that song, is the word THEIR. To say no one gets to their heaven without a fight to me leaves things very open to interpretation. Heaven could be some kind of theological/spiritual view of heaven, or it could be just be some high level of attainment in any variety of different ways. I never thought of it as purely the former, especially given my knowledge of Neil's beliefs, but even that notwithstanding, it's worded in such a way as to leave things more open. Other parts of the song are more direct, but still it presents many different options of how one could view things. I love that universal appeal and openness in a song. Far Cry was also masterful at conveying a universal appeal and having that openness to interpretation while still making concrete philosophical statements. Other songs I obviously think were far less successful at that. But "Fight' most likely means "War" considering the rest of the songs lyrics and the entire albums theme. If you look at this way and take it literally it's pretty cynical: No one gets to their heaven without a fight. Fighting/warring for your will beliefs will get you to heaven (will kill you). I don't doubt that Peart partly intended it that way, no matter how spiritual it may sound on the surface. It's a commentary on religion based warfare and how far people will go with those beliefs. It's strongly ironic. You won't get to heaven without fighting (take 'fighting' literally). Your pursuit for heaven may kill you. So your quest for heaven will inevitably you to 'heaven' (death) in one form or another. Peart was awesome on this song. reminds me of a quote from Osama Bin Laden... I don't have the actual quote but it was something about how we (the West) love life, and they (Al Qaeda/radical Islam) love death. He interprets his religion in such a way that he embraces a "culture of death". My immediate thought after reading that was to wonder why he doesn't kill himself then lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2010 Author Share Posted October 20, 2010 QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:22 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 02:21 PM) QUOTE (losingit2k @ Oct 20 2010, 12:11 PM) QUOTE (savagegrace26 @ Oct 20 2010, 01:31 PM) QUOTE (rushgoober @ Oct 20 2010, 01:18 PM) QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Oct 20 2010, 11:03 AM) This thread does bring up an interesting question: if Rush's lyrics are so blatantly anti-religion/god, then why do they have such a huge number of religious fans? Is it their family-friendly nature? Is it just that they're so awesome people can't help but like them, even when their beliefs are being mocked? I was actually introduced to them through one of the musical directors at my church! I came to TRF over 5 years ago, but in the 25 years or so prior to that being a fan of Freewill, I really never sat down and analyzed the lyrics to the nth degree that people have here. My understanding of it is greater now, but really all I think about it is a song advocating freewill, and that's an easy concept to agree with. So part of it is not sitting down and really thinking, "hmmm, what EXACTLY is Neil trying to say here, let me dissect it," and part is the songs just generally being open to interpretation. I think of Armor & Sword as a very spiritual song. Was it meant that way? Probably not, but I don't really care how it was meant, I care what it means to me. And I know I can't be the only one who thinks of Mission as being an uplifting spiritual song. A group like Yes, that has a lot of very overtly spiritual lyrics, is loved by a lot of non-believers, again because the songs can be interpreted fairly widely. The creation of art has intention behind it, yes, but it's the mind of the recipient that interprets it in ways that make sense to them, regardless of the intent. In some more recent songs, like Faithless and BU2B, the meaning is far more apparent than it was before. It's a lot more direct and cutting IMO. If anything, I think Armor & Sword is in a way mocking a spiritual, uplifting song. It's key line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" sounds like finding a path to spiritual ascension on it's own, but taken in context with the rest of the lyrics it has a more of a cynical edge that seems more like Neil intended it as 'people's silly beliefs ultimately lead to death and destruction' or 'people kill each other for what they believe in their mind is for a greater cause, but in reality it isn't". Still, that doesn't stop the song from being 'uplifting' to me in many ways. The juxtaposition of the spiritual and the cynical is in it's own way pretty powerful and the music itself carries a pretty uplifting vibe, whether or not Neil intended that is irrelevant. The song IS a double-edged sword and can be taken in any way you wish. I believe that the passage in question "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" doesn't mean heaven as a location more of a person perception of what his individual heaven would be. To a musican it may be success. Hence,you would need to fight for that success, it isn't going to happen by osmosis. That we as people have to fight for our visions of paradise!Hmm, I wonder who said that? I believe that's what Clockwork Angels will ultimately be about: A simple peasant who "Can't stop thinking big!" One with big dreams in a society which really doesn't have an avenue to fullfill such desires and this character is going to have to fight for his vision of heaven against all including his own religious beleifs! It's about self awakening! About personal fulfillment vs personal beliefs! I think the key word in that line, which is the key line in that song, is the word THEIR. To say no one gets to their heaven without a fight to me leaves things very open to interpretation. Heaven could be some kind of theological/spiritual view of heaven, or it could be just be some high level of attainment in any variety of different ways. I never thought of it as purely the former, especially given my knowledge of Neil's beliefs, but even that notwithstanding, it's worded in such a way as to leave things more open. Other parts of the song are more direct, but still it presents many different options of how one could view things. I love that universal appeal and openness in a song. Far Cry was also masterful at conveying a universal appeal and having that openness to interpretation while still making concrete philosophical statements. Other songs I obviously think were far less successful at that. But "Fight' most likely means "War" considering the rest of the songs lyrics and the entire albums theme. If you look at this way and take it literally it's pretty cynical: No one gets to their heaven without a fight. Fighting/warring for your will beliefs will get you to heaven (will kill you). I don't doubt that Peart partly intended it that way, no matter how spiritual it may sound on the surface. It's a commentary on religion based warfare and how far people will go with those beliefs. It's strongly ironic. You won't get to heaven without fighting (take 'fighting' literally). Your pursuit for heaven may kill you. So your quest for heaven will inevitably you to 'heaven' (death) in one form or another. Peart was awesome on this song. I don't take it that way at all. Fight in that line represents struggle or hardship or something to overcome to me. That's a universal concept. No one does get to their heaven (whatever that is for you) without effort and overcoming and struggling to break free. *EDITED in to say that even if you're right in what Neil intended, this is what it means to me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyJeff Posted October 20, 2010 Share Posted October 20, 2010 I think the line "No one gets to their heaven without a fight" is not about war, specifically. I think the notion is that in every religion some kind of barrier is setup to only allow those into "heaven" who are willing to struggle and are up to the challenge. For many extremists this means war, but even for those more moderate their is some kind of challenge and often this challenge is turned around on others (who do not pass the challenge) as a weapon. Peart is painting with a VERY broad brush in this song ("No one")- so broad that it might even be inclusive of the non-religious. That is, even the atheists among us aspire to something great (their "heaven") and this is not achieved without a struggle that can often wound those around them. For sure this is my interpretation, because it is the truth of the matter. Whoever we are, whatever version of heaven we are struggling for, we often wound those around us when the things we cling to for safety we begin to wield as weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LakesideMaiden Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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