ozzy85 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I have more of a background with early heavy metal bands... late '69-ish and Black Sabbath seems to be a commonly agreed starting point for an actual heavy metal band. What about prog? I don't know as much. One of the earliest bands with key elements of prog is King Crimson. (Here again, '69?) Focus and Yes appeared around the break of 1970 didn't they? I know Pink Floyd had albums out in '67 and '68, but I don't know if the Syd-era stuff counts... Since I collect old albums, I have the early hard rock/metal genre fairly well mapped out. What can you tell me about early progressive rock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaye Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 I think the later work of The Beatles was one of the things that got prog going. Goobs is the real prog expert though, he could probably tell you quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (Jaye @ Oct 19 2009, 04:23 PM) I think the later work of The Beatles was one of the things that got prog going. Goobs is the real prog expert though, he could probably tell you quite a bit. I know there have to be articles online that have more knowledge than me off the top of my head, but here's my take: Progressive rock to a degree grew out of psychedelic rock, although unlike psychedelic rock which has its roots in rock, blues, r&b and eastern music, progressive rock had its roots in rock, psychedlic rock, blues, jazz and classical. Of course that's a generalization, but the argument could be made that progressive rock started when people took psychedelic rock, a genre that was pushing the boundaries into uncharted territories, and started to experiment and see where they could take it, how they could extend it and add in other genres of music that never mixed with rock before. There is no cut and dry group where you can say this was it, this was the very first and all else stemmed from there. Certainly early concept albums where work was linked thematically, and sometimes by connecting music or song suites, were forerunners to prog rock. There was The Mothers of Invention's Freak Out! (1966), The Beatles' Sgt. Peppers (1967), and even more especially The Moody Blues' Days of Future Passed (1967), which was not only a concept album, but was a deliberate fusing of an orchestra with rock music, alternating between the two in a seamless whole. Then there's The Who's The Who Sell Out (1967), The Kinks' Village Green Preservation Society (1968), The Pretty Things' S.F. Sorrow (1968) as other early concept examples. The Nice had The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack in 1967, Pink Floyd certainly made major headway towards prog with some of their 1967's Piper, and even more so in 1968's Saucerful. The Moody Blues had In Search of the Lost Chord in 1968 which contained a lot of strong prog elements. The first Soft Machine album in 1968 was very progressive. One could also cite the late 60's San Francisco bands which started mostly in 1966 with extended free-form jams and more complex stretched out tracks that started to have somewhat of a progressive rock structure - there are many of these groups like The Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane, Quicksilver Messenger Service and others that were pushing the boundaries big time by 1967. To quote Jefferson Airplane off their 1967 album After Bathing At Baxter's, "I'm doing things that haven't got a name yet." Then there are groups like The Move, Traffic, The Velvet Underground, early Deep Purple, The Doors, The Incredible String Band, Jethro Tull and many others who in 1966, 1967 & 1968 were making huge strides towards progressive rock or at least contained very strong elements of prog. King Crimson's In The Court of the Crimson King (1969) was certainly one of the earliest albums that was particularly demonstrative of the style of progressive rock that would become very popular, and in that it's groundbreaking, but definitely the roots came prior to that. There are many more examples than what I've listed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzy85 Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 It's funny you mention the Doors. That's partly what got me thinking this. After listening to Waiting For The Sun and Soft Parade, I got to thinking about their level of musicianship and the instrumentation used, a couple of key elements. I forgot entirely about the Moody Blues. Weird, since I've seen them live. Maybe there's a kind of pre-prog era, like there's pre-metal? (I'm thinking Steppenwolf and Blue Cheer on that one.) Hell, even the Crazy World Of Arthur Brown had a fantastic concept album. At least one side anyway, the whole "Fire" suite. 1968. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUSHHEAD666 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Gary surely knows his stuff! Here's my two cents, I mean two bands who I think helped invent prog: HAWKWIND IRON BUTTERFLY See you in the Garden Of Eden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (RUSHHEAD666 @ Oct 19 2009, 09:11 PM) Gary surely knows his stuff! Here's my two cents, I mean two bands who I think helped invent prog: HAWKWIND IRON BUTTERFLY See you in the Garden Of Eden. Hawkwind were more space rock, though a valid branch of prog, but they didn't have their first album until 1970. Maybe Iron Butterfly to an extent, though I don't own any of their albums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushgoober Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 If you ever want to hear something pretty mindblowing, check out the album Sea Shanties by High Tide from 1969. The frist progressive metal album? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUSHHEAD666 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Damn Gary! You are the Prog Master. Never heard of them! I will check them out! Hey! Don't forget about the band GONG. They were established in 1967! I like them too! Also don't forget about Steve Hackett's band "Quiet World." That album came out in 1970. Endless really. PROG ON! Earl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUSHHEAD666 Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Alright Gary! I work fast! After all I have to try and keep up with you! I just bought the High Tide album on eBay. 32 bucks. Japanese pressing sealed. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetaxe&saw Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 As Gary mentioned earlier, Days of Future Passed by the Moodies is one of the definite foundation stones. I think Procol Harum's Whiter Shade of Pale deserves a lot of credit(or blame!) also, certainly from an "out-there" lyric and classical influence perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gompers Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 King Crimson defined the genre with ITCOTCK, but The Beatle's - Sgt. Peppers is probably the best well known example of it's 60's birth. There have been many a long winded discussion of this over on ProgArchives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 to me the word "prog" is pretty much useless. how can that older music be considered "prog" when that term was not even used back then to describe music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (tangy @ Oct 20 2009, 03:14 PM) to me the word "prog" is pretty much useless. how can that older music be considered "prog" when that term was not even used back then to describe music? Same as Black Sabbath never called their music "heavy metal". It's categories created by the press/the public, not the bands. Retrospectevely, though, it's the best name for that kind of music, since it encompasses the basic phylosophy of the genre. "Prog Rock Britannia", last year's BBC prog special, cites Procul Harum as the first self-aware "prog" band, with seeds going back to Pepper's, Zappa and all the other people Gary said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gompers Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gompers Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanadoood Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (H. P. L. @ Oct 20 2009, 08:20 AM) QUOTE (tangy @ Oct 20 2009, 03:14 PM) to me the word "prog" is pretty much useless. how can that older music be considered "prog" when that term was not even used back then to describe music? Same as Black Sabbath never called their music "heavy metal". It's categories created by the press/the public, not the bands. Retrospectevely, though, it's the best name for that kind of music, since it encompasses the basic phylosophy of the genre. "Prog Rock Britannia", last year's BBC prog special, cites Procul Harum as the first self-aware "prog" band, with seeds going back to Pepper's, Zappa and all the other people Gary said. Its funny you mention Sabbath. They are listed on Progarchives. com. I suppose they delved somewhat into prog territory, but i consider them a straight up Metal band. Its all so confusing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (Gompers @ Oct 20 2009, 09:02 AM) I know what you mean, but you know Prog when you hear it. one mans prog is another mans alternative rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (Xanadoood @ Oct 20 2009, 09:06 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ Oct 20 2009, 08:20 AM) QUOTE (tangy @ Oct 20 2009, 03:14 PM) to me the word "prog" is pretty much useless. how can that older music be considered "prog" when that term was not even used back then to describe music? Same as Black Sabbath never called their music "heavy metal". It's categories created by the press/the public, not the bands. Retrospectevely, though, it's the best name for that kind of music, since it encompasses the basic phylosophy of the genre. "Prog Rock Britannia", last year's BBC prog special, cites Procul Harum as the first self-aware "prog" band, with seeds going back to Pepper's, Zappa and all the other people Gary said. Its funny you mention Sabbath. They are listed on Progarchives. com. I suppose they delved somewhat into prog territory, but i consider them a straight up Metal band. Its all so confusing! Regardless of the names/labels later given to music all music had one name or another to describe it when it was being made. Going back in time to label old music with a new description makes no sense to me and is a type of historical revision IMO. What about the origins of Punk Rock? Seems like punk bands were called punk from the very beginiing. Should we go back and give that type of music a new name now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (Xanadoood @ Oct 20 2009, 04:06 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ Oct 20 2009, 08:20 AM) QUOTE (tangy @ Oct 20 2009, 03:14 PM) to me the word "prog" is pretty much useless. how can that older music be considered "prog" when that term was not even used back then to describe music? Same as Black Sabbath never called their music "heavy metal". It's categories created by the press/the public, not the bands. Retrospectevely, though, it's the best name for that kind of music, since it encompasses the basic phylosophy of the genre. "Prog Rock Britannia", last year's BBC prog special, cites Procul Harum as the first self-aware "prog" band, with seeds going back to Pepper's, Zappa and all the other people Gary said. Its funny you mention Sabbath. They are listed on Progarchives. com. I suppose they delved somewhat into prog territory, but i consider them a straight up Metal band. Its all so confusing! They surely had their prog moments, with albums like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath guest starring Rick Wakeman. I have always felt a close proximity between Sabbath and prog, especially Tony, he really was pushing forward, breaking boundaries, at least until 1978... Anyway, I'm the first to acknowledge the fact that these kind of definition is purely "user friendly", just to give you a basic blueprint of what you're going to hear... One might get into Crimson with their first album and then, by chance or faith, jump to Starless and Bible Black and find himself fronting a heavy metal album. (Which is the sort of thing that happened to me, back in time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (H. P. L. @ Oct 20 2009, 10:30 AM) They surely had their prog moments, with albums like Sabbath Bloody Sabbath guest starring Rick Wakeman. I did not know about that! cool trivia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudzu Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (Hatchetaxe&saw @ Oct 20 2009, 05:06 AM) As Gary mentioned earlier, Days of Future Passed by the Moodies is one of the definite foundation stones. I think Procol Harum's Whiter Shade of Pale deserves a lot of credit(or blame!) also, certainly from an "out-there" lyric and classical influence perspective. I agree. Probably started with Moody Blues, Pink Floyd, and Procol Harum around 1967, growing out of the psychedelic rock movement. Another influence could be Sun Ra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soni Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I think there is some early prog-ism on Freak Out! by The Mothers of Invention, same for Sgt Pepper, but really it all started with King Crimson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 http://infao5501.ag5.mpi-sb.mpg.de:8080/to...51503.xml&style ^^^interesting read on the origins of prog rock. "It should be noted that the term "progressive" in the early 1970s had been coined to emphasize the newness of these bands, but by the 1980s the term had become the name of a specific musical style. As a result, bands such as King Crimson which continued to update their sound were not always called "progressive", while some newer self-described "prog" bands purchased vintage mellotrons in order to recreate the sound of early 1970s prog. Fans and hostile critics alike had established "progressive rock" as the permanent name of this genre, and so the connection to the usual meaning of "progressive" became irrelevant. " Ok, more confused than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangy Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 QUOTE (Soni @ Oct 20 2009, 12:08 PM) I think there is some early prog-ism on Freak Out! by The Mothers of Invention, same for Sgt Pepper, but really it all started with King Crimson that link i just put up agrees with you! First progressive rock acts Many music historians point to King Crimson as the first "true" progressive rock band; their first appearance was in February 1969. They were quickly followed by other English progressive rock bands, including Yes, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Emerson Lake and Palmer, and Jethro Tull. It is worth noting that aside from ELP these bands began their careers before King Crimson, and changed their musical styles considerably following the release of " In the Court of the Crimson King "; and as for Emerson Lake and Palmer, they inherited their singer and bassist, Greg Lake , from the original King Crimson lineup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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