Prog Snobbery?

[Ged Lent's sis]

Over't'thishere thread... http://www.therushfo...on/page__st__40

...gedicated to the lack of love for Lerxst superiority—and as is wont to happen on any forum thread the world-wide-web over—the discussion got trolled veered towards Dirk being a dork, more specifically, such a prog-nerd that it had perhaps gone ever-so slightly to his head.

 

The brilliantly moniker'd Xanadoood offered this observation:

Well, I think Geddy has mellowed with age, but Rush were definitely somewhat elitist music snobs back in the day.. There's that clip from around 79,80, in the studio, where Geddy talks about bands going back to basics " cause all they know are the basics" .. In a very condescending tone.. Rush were Prog snobs

 

I remember this interview and other interviews from the era well. The band at this point did seem to have a small chip on its shoulder. They were, after all, still trying to progress further, and even embrace the new wave, while countervailing forces were reverberating still, which led to the likes of Rush being mocked. Perhaps this was as a result of the bad name that "prog" got, seen through the eyes of those who appreciated the raw energy that punk had infused back into rock & roll as a whole. Typical, however, is that punk had all but come and gone as a mainstream-ish sensation at that point in history. So perhaps my assessment is false, here.

 

Nevertheless, Rush were definitely embracing their outsider status to the extent that their views seemed to mirror those of their teenage (and not so teenaged) fans. I tend to agree with Xanadoood on this one, though I also see Ged's point, I think, at least the one from the quote.

 

If you take the "cause all they know are the basics" in isolation—and depending on your familiarity with Geddy Lee—you will either come to the conclusion that he is a being arrogant, or that he is simply stating a matter of fact, with no intent to belittle anyone else.

 

One should keep in mind that the view that Rush are or were ever not mainstream is a pretty narrow one. Relative to the top 40, sure, they were always struggling. But let's face it, they have always been knocking on that door. Just because they weren't Michael Jackson or Def Leppard or AC/DC or Madonna in popular appeal, does not mean they were not mainstream.

 

Now I am not partial to the term "progressive rock" - even less-so "prog" - but that is my issue. Rush, in my opinion, cannot be pigeon-holed into what has essentially become a genre when it was supposed to be about an approach to making music. They are rock and roll, more or less.

 

But ask King Crimson past and present (yes present) about fame and notoriety and being under-appreciated. Hell, most Rush fans (or people who would say they are Rush fans) don't even realize that Crimson have two studio albums as recent as this century. And the material on those albums is just a bit more a departure from "the basics" than what Rush have done.

 

Nevertheless, when you look at it from a broader perspective, both groups belong in the rock & roll category. And beyond those two bands exist loads of bands and groups and musical configurations that would still get placed in the Rock/Pop section of a record store if they could just get anyone to listen to their music.

 

Again, as Xanadoood pointed out, Geddy and the band know this and have indeed mellowed with age. They are fully aware that what they are doing is essentially popular music, even if they continue to strive to make it new and different.

 

But the question that arose is an interesting one: :codger: Are you or have you ever been a prog snob!! :spitwater:

Answer the question!

[KennyLee]

I remember that interview and thought the same thing. It is not until seeing Beyond The Lighted Stage that I thought he was just being Geddy and not trying to be condescending. What changed my view?

 

When he was speaking of Kiss he gave the most back handed compliment:

 

"Say what you want about Kiss musically or otherwise, they are the hardest working band around" or something to that effect. In otherwords, they're not musically anything special but they put on a good show. Do I think Geddy was trying to put down Kiss? Not at all. I think He genuinely meant it as a compliment.

 

In the other interview he says bands are going back to basics cause all they know is the basics and that leads the band into complimenting the Talking Heads, The Police, etc. It comes across snobby but I really don't think he meant it to be. Did that make sense?

 

I am not a prog snob at all. I dig Green Day, The Ramones, AC/DC, Violent Femmes, etc. Certainly not an elitist.

 

I will, however, get into a heated argument with anybody who bashes Rush musically. They are Gods among men and will be treated as such as long as I'm around.

[Xanadoood]

I think they were on the defensive at the time. Critics despised Prog, and Rush I'm sure we're feeling the heat . So I can't blame Geddy for being sensitive about it.. Who knows what treatment they were getting from other bands as well.. I know they did some shows with Cheap Trick , The Runaways.. I can't see those bands diggin what Rush were about

 

The punk / new wave aesthetic can be quite intense , and guys from that scene can be very insulting and in your face.. They basically don't like much music beyond their scene

 

They also played some shows with Tom Petty.. Talk about polar opposites

Edited March 17, 2014 by Xanadoood

[Ged Lent's sis]

I think they were on the defensive at the time. Critics despised Prog, and Rush I'm sure we're feeling the heat . So I can't blame Geddy for being sensitive about it.. Who knows what treatment they were getting from other bands as well.. I know they did some shows with Cheap Trick , The Runaways.. I can't see those bands diggin what Rush were about

 

The punk / new wave aesthetic can be quite intense , and guys from that scene can be very insulting and in your face.. They basically don't like much music beyond their scene

Well, you know the Runaways story, right? Apparently, or according to one or more of them, the band displayed a somewhat superior attitude toward them. It kind of makes me think of the tragic reality that the abused all too often become abusers, and not necessarily towards those who have it coming—punching down, as it were.

[Tony R]

I think getting "snobby" about Prog is a defence mechanism. Having lived through the 70s as a teenager but a little too young to have been in the Prog movement from the start there was always a backlash against this music I liked. In some respects Prog is about infusing different styles into the rock format and that necessarily requires a relatively high degree of musicianship, and that becomes our weapon of choice when defending ourselves against the peevish masses of pop, rock, and indie fans as in "your band can't even play properly".

Nobody ever calls Classical Music pretentious yet rock musicians who aspire to painting musical soundscapes and something more esoteric than good old 4 bar boogie are sneered at. Why wouldn't you want to aspire to be the best that you can be?

Edited March 17, 2014 by Tony R

[Tony R]

I think they were on the defensive at the time. Critics despised Prog, and Rush I'm sure we're feeling the heat . So I can't blame Geddy for being sensitive about it.. Who knows what treatment they were getting from other bands as well.. I know they did some shows with Cheap Trick , The Runaways.. I can't see those bands diggin what Rush were about

 

The punk / new wave aesthetic can be quite intense , and guys from that scene can be very insulting and in your face.. They basically don't like much music beyond their scene

Well, you know the Runaways story, right? Apparently, or according to one or more of them, the band displayed a somewhat superior attitude toward them. It kind of makes me think of the tragic reality that the abused all too often become abusers, and not necessarily towards those who have it coming—punching down, as it were.

 

I'm guessing that The Runaways didn't understand Rush's sense of humour. You only have to see the way people on message boards react to people being sarky or silly to see that one man's humour is another man's stepped on toe.

[x1yyz]

I think getting "snobby" about Prog is a defence mechanism. Having lived through the 70s as a teenager but a little too young to have been in the Prog movement from the start there was always a backlash against this music I liked. In some respects Prog is about infusing different styles into the rock format and that necessarily requires a relatively high degree of musicianship, and that becomes our weapon of choice when defending ourselves against the peevish masses of pop, rock, and indie fans as in "your band can't even play properly".

Nobody ever calls Classical Music pretentious yet rock musicians who aspire to painting musical soundscapes and something more esoteric than good old 4 bar boogie are sneered at. Why wouldn't you want to aspire to be the best that you can be?

 

I agree that snobbery is a sort of defense. I also think that people with low self esteem use it offensively, in order to make themselves feel better (although I am not accusing Geddy of that; seeing that clip I thought it was just a youthful naïveté). I know I've been guilty of thinking "my music is more obscure/more progressive/less popular that yours therefore it is better" in the past but at some point I got over that. Well, mostly got over that—I still think there's good & bad music, but just because something is more progressive or whatever doesn't mean it's necessarily better.

 

Does all that make sense?

[KennyLee]

I think getting "snobby" about Prog is a defence mechanism. Having lived through the 70s as a teenager but a little too young to have been in the Prog movement from the start there was always a backlash against this music I liked. In some respects Prog is about infusing different styles into the rock format and that necessarily requires a relatively high degree of musicianship, and that becomes our weapon of choice when defending ourselves against the peevish masses of pop, rock, and indie fans as in "your band can't even play properly".

Nobody ever calls Classical Music pretentious yet rock musicians who aspire to painting musical soundscapes and something more esoteric than good old 4 bar boogie are sneered at. Why wouldn't you want to aspire to be the best that you can be?

 

I agree that snobbery is a sort of defense. I also think that people with low self esteem use it offensively, in order to make themselves feel better (although I am not accusing Geddy of that; seeing that clip I thought it was just a youthful naïveté). I know I've been guilty of thinking "my music is more obscure/more progressive/less popular that yours therefore it is better" in the past but at some point I got over that. Well, mostly got over that—I still think there's good & bad music, but just because something is more progressive or whatever doesn't mean it's necessarily better.

 

Does all that make sense?

 

[Ged Lent's sis]

I agree that snobbery is a sort of defense. I also think that people with low self esteem use it offensively, in order to make themselves feel better (although I am not accusing Geddy of that; seeing that clip I thought it was just a youthful naïveté). I know I've been guilty of thinking "my music is more obscure/more progressive/less popular that yours therefore it is better" in the past but at some point I got over that. Well, mostly got over that—I still think there's good & bad music, but just because something is more progressive or whatever doesn't mean it's necessarily better.

 

Does all that make sense?

 

You've basically crystallized my thinking on the matter in way fewer words.

[Xanadoood]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

Edited March 17, 2014 by Xanadoood

[Tombstone Mountain]

I remember that interview and thought the same thing. It is not until seeing Beyond The Lighted Stage that I thought he was just being Geddy and not trying to be condescending. What changed my view?

 

When he was speaking of Kiss he gave the most back handed compliment:

 

"Say what you want about Kiss musically or otherwise, they are the hardest working band around" or something to that effect. In otherwords, they're not musically anything special but they put on a good show. Do I think Geddy was trying to put down Kiss? Not at all. I think He genuinely meant it as a compliment.

 

In the other interview he says bands are going back to basics cause all they know is the basics and that leads the band into complimenting the Talking Heads, The Police, etc. It comes across snobby but I really don't think he meant it to be. Did that make sense?

 

I am not a prog snob at all. I dig Green Day, The Ramones, AC/DC, Violent Femmes, etc. Certainly not an elitist.

 

I will, however, get into a heated argument with anybody who bashes Rush musically. They are Gods among men and will be treated as such as long as I'm around.

Chris Squire is awesome

[KennyLee]

I remember that interview and thought the same thing. It is not until seeing Beyond The Lighted Stage that I thought he was just being Geddy and not trying to be condescending. What changed my view?

 

When he was speaking of Kiss he gave the most back handed compliment:

 

"Say what you want about Kiss musically or otherwise, they are the hardest working band around" or something to that effect. In otherwords, they're not musically anything special but they put on a good show. Do I think Geddy was trying to put down Kiss? Not at all. I think He genuinely meant it as a compliment.

 

In the other interview he says bands are going back to basics cause all they know is the basics and that leads the band into complimenting the Talking Heads, The Police, etc. It comes across snobby but I really don't think he meant it to be. Did that make sense?

 

I am not a prog snob at all. I dig Green Day, The Ramones, AC/DC, Violent Femmes, etc. Certainly not an elitist.

 

I will, however, get into a heated argument with anybody who bashes Rush musically. They are Gods among men and will be treated as such as long as I'm around.

Chris Squire is awesome

 

Hahahaha

[Narps]

I agree that snobbery is a sort of defense. I also think that people with low self esteem use it offensively, in order to make themselves feel better (although I am not accusing Geddy of that; seeing that clip I thought it was just a youthful naïveté). I know I've been guilty of thinking "my music is more obscure/more progressive/less popular that yours therefore it is better" in the past but at some point I got over that. Well, mostly got over that—I still think there's good & bad music, but just because something is more progressive or whatever doesn't mean it's necessarily better.

 

Does all that make sense?

 

You've basically crystallized my thinking on the matter in way fewer words.

She can do that.... :)

[bathory]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

 

prog has less "rules" and isn't based around silly "scenes" that people want to join to be cool. of course there are less assholes in prog

[Xanadoood]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

 

prog has less "rules" and isn't based around silly "scenes" that people want to join to be cool. of course there are less assholes in prog

 

That's really half of what it is.. Based on a social scene.. The music isn't first priority.

[bathory]

and another thing I've noticed - you'll meet a lot of prog fans who also like punk, indie, other types of music, but you'll rarely meet a PUNK who likes anything besides, well, punk. and even within punk they're still close-minded - I've talked to friends of friends about music and when I find out they only like punk, I'll try to find some common ground, like black flag, husker du, etc. and what you'll find out is that even THAT shit isn't punk enough or deviates too much from how "punk should sound" (no song longer than 2 minutes, no guitar solos, no long hair) for those idiots!

 

I know more people who are metalheads first and love a ton of punk and whatnot than I have punk fans who will give any metal a chance

[bathory]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

 

prog has less "rules" and isn't based around silly "scenes" that people want to join to be cool. of course there are less assholes in prog

 

That's really half of what it is.. Based on a social scene.. The music isn't first priority.

 

no shit....thank god prog isn't built around stupid little scenes and thank god it never got anybody any pussy. thanks to all the critics and women hating it, we've managed to keep prog about the music and nothing else

[Narps]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

 

prog has less "rules" and isn't based around silly "scenes" that people want to join to be cool. of course there are less assholes in prog

 

That's really half of what it is.. Based on a social scene.. The music isn't first priority.

 

no shit....thank god prog isn't built around stupid little scenes and thank god it never got anybody any pussy. thanks to all the critics and women hating it, we've managed to keep prog about the music and nothing else

Can I quote part of this if I ever feel the need too?......

[bathory]

sure

[Narps]

sure

The part that starts with "thank" and ends with "pussy". Truer words were never uttered... :LMAO: x 1000

[Xanadoood]

and another thing I've noticed - you'll meet a lot of prog fans who also like punk, indie, other types of music, but you'll rarely meet a PUNK who likes anything besides, well, punk. and even within punk they're still close-minded - I've talked to friends of friends about music and when I find out they only like punk, I'll try to find some common ground, like black flag, husker du, etc. and what you'll find out is that even THAT shit isn't punk enough or deviates too much from how "punk should sound" (no song longer than 2 minutes, no guitar solos, no long hair) for those idiots!

 

I know more people who are metalheads first and love a ton of punk and whatnot than I have punk fans who will give any metal a chance

 

 

 

Yup. A co worker is like that.. He used attend a ton of hardcore shows back in the day.. Loves Henry Rollins.. But it's impossible to discuss any other styles of music with him.. It's really bizarre

[Tombstone Mountain]

I remember that interview and thought the same thing. It is not until seeing Beyond The Lighted Stage that I thought he was just being Geddy and not trying to be condescending. What changed my view?

 

When he was speaking of Kiss he gave the most back handed compliment:

 

"Say what you want about Kiss musically or otherwise, they are the hardest working band around" or something to that effect. In otherwords, they're not musically anything special but they put on a good show. Do I think Geddy was trying to put down Kiss? Not at all. I think He genuinely meant it as a compliment.

 

In the other interview he says bands are going back to basics cause all they know is the basics and that leads the band into complimenting the Talking Heads, The Police, etc. It comes across snobby but I really don't think he meant it to be. Did that make sense?

 

I am not a prog snob at all. I dig Green Day, The Ramones, AC/DC, Violent Femmes, etc. Certainly not an elitist.

 

I will, however, get into a heated argument with anybody who bashes Rush musically. They are Gods among men and will be treated as such as long as I'm around.

Chris Squire is awesome

For the first time ever I've "liked" my own comment...and I'll gladly take the heat for it—bring it in suckas!!!!

[Tony R]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

of course there are less assholes in prog

 

I can assure you that isn't true at all.

 

People are people, purveying a certain type of music does not necessarily change or reflect their personality. Give me a John Lydon anyday over a Ginger Baker, Neil Peart or Derek Dick.

[treeduck]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

of course there are less assholes in prog

 

I can assure you that isn't true at all.

 

People are people, purveying a certain type of music does not necessarily change or reflect their personality. Give me a John Lydon anyday over a Ginger Baker, Neil Peart or Derek Dick.

Tony R tries hard to be the John Lydon of TRF!!

[Tony R]

Punk / indie rock fans are more annoying than any Prog fans I've met.

 

For the record, I enjoy quite a bit of Punk/ indie/ college music as well..

of course there are less assholes in prog

 

I can assure you that isn't true at all.

 

People are people, purveying a certain type of music does not necessarily change or reflect their personality. Give me a John Lydon anyday over a Ginger Baker, Neil Peart or Derek Dick.

Tony R tries hard to be the John Lydon of TRF!!

 

What a rotten thing to say!!!