Is it important that they 'play everything live' ?

[GeoffMutton]

Hello folks - first time poster after a lengthy lurking...

 

I was wondering how people here would feel if Rush were to change their 'no backing tapes' policy?

I've always read since the first time I got interested in Rush that every single sound coming out of the PA is somehow triggered by them. I've also read a whole bunch about how complex this makes the show for them - footpedals, triggers, samples being fired off left and right and so on.

 

My question is: would it actually bother anyone if they played to a click and allowed themselves to enjoy being present in the show a little more, rather than carrying out what could be thought of as just a technical exercise? I know for example that they use samples of Geddy's vocal to thicken his voice out in choruses and so on. (not as a way for Geddy to 'mime', but just as a way of replicating the multi-layered textures of the record). Some people think that the use of pre-recorded vocals in any way is 'cheating', whereas some people go home disappointed if the show doesn't sound like the CD.

 

I'm genuinely interested to see where the random sampling of the band's audience represented here stand.

My own personal view is that it's very impressive that they can make all that stuff happen, but ultimately it's perhaps unnecessary. If the arrangements were radically different every night, I can understand needing to trigger things on the fly. Rush though, appear to thrive on structure and precision, with the songs having a very rigid arrangement. Even in the 'improv' bits, it's within a repeatable structure (i.e. "Lerxst goes off on one for x bars in the mid section of La Villa").

 

I've heard them say in interviews before that Neil is very comfortable playing to a click in the studio and actually enjoys it, as it allows him to be more adventurous. My feeling is that they have not yet explored fully the concept of 'making connection' with the audience, with being 'in the moment' at the shows by allowing the technology to worry about hitting the button at the right time and allowing the click to act as metronome, rather than Neil constantly having to worry about whether he's pushing things in a way that's going to make the next sample sound out of time when it arrives.

 

Obviously, we know that Neil is a special boy and that he's probably happier with something that keeps him tied up and avoids the necessity of any interaction with (or acknowledgment of) the audience. I can't help feeling that Geddy and Alex would feel freed and more able to make each show special and unique if they were less slaved to their devices.

 

After their 80's keyboard experimentation, they came around from writing complex technical exercises and moved much more into 'songwriting'. Everyone knew they could play every time signature under the sun and stack up hi-tech production techniques. The logical next step was to break things down, to explore simple band dynamics again. I'm wondering if it's time to move the live performances into a more loose and direct format?

 

I know they're touring with a string section now. Many times in live production, string sections are pre-recorded and play along to a click. Loud rock stages (particularly with loud drum kits) make getting good string sounds extremely difficult, so the live strings are mixed in with the pre-recorded track to ensure that the mixer out front can get a good loud clean string sound. This means the band may already be playing to a click and backing tracks on the current tour. I honestly don't see a problem with this and wouldn't feel cheated if they carried on in this vein and expanded upon it.

 

After all, when they make the records, it's months of work building up the tracks, we're not listening to a recording of the band playing everything together in 'one pass'. If it's never existed like this, why is it necessary for the show to be like this? Why not pick the bits that they do best and have the rest 'on track' ?

 

 

My question is: should they allow the technology to take the strain on the next tour and do it with the fans' blessing, or is it important to you that they walk the tightrope? Is there no glory without the tension of potential train-wreck? If they're more free to concentrate on their primary roles, will they give a better performance, or will the show be lacking?

 

Apologies for the long post, but I think it's a really interesting topic and one that's never really been openly discussed and explored amongst fans.

Edited April 1, 2013 by GeoffMutton

[Snaked]

TL,DR - sorry.

I did however read the first sentence and wanted to correct you.

 

RUSH does NOT have a "No backing tapes" policy and never has which is proven by the simple fact that the 2112 intro has always been started by somebody other than the band. '...back in the day...' it was the FOH engineer who would literally hit a cassette tape to start it. I no longer know for certain who starts that pre-recording but it certainly isn't the band.

 

Another thing to realize is that on this tour they have fully embraced the click track. I wont post any spoilers since we're in the wrong forum for that, but many of the older songs that are played on this tour are obviously clicked as can be observed if you watch some Youtube Vids.

[GeoffMutton]

TL, DR ??

[Lost In Xanadu]

TL, DR ??

 

Too Long, Didn't Read....

[Nate1647]

They still do not use a click, I'm not really sure where people are getting the idea that they are for this tour. Check out Manhattan Project, in the few breaks in the beginning you can clearly hear Neil clicking his sticks to stay in time, and all over the place you can see him pushing and pulling the tempo. You can't push and pull to a click track. If you've watched Neils latest instructional dvd, you know that pushing and pulling to create a sense of groove or urgency is something that the band has been working hard on (on the Time Machine Tour, as well as this one). Listen to some boots of Clockwork Angels, and the 2 seperate verses are all over the place (in a good way). No clicks to be found.

 

And I hope that they never use backing tracks (although I don't think they ever will.) They pride themselves on triggering everything themselves, and they are REALLY damn good at it. To someone who's played drums and bass in Rush tunes, I can tell you that its so freaking hard to multitask like they do, and they make it look easy. It's one of my favorite parts of the band too, and other fans who are really strong musicans i know will agree with me. Also, I think some songs would be harder playing to backing tracks. As many sampled parts and time changes as Rush songs have, one slip up and the rest of the track is out the window if you're on a click. With the pedals, you can hit the wrong trigger, figure out the trainwreck, and then regroup (see the actual live TMT version of presto, not the doctored one of the DVD).

Edited April 1, 2013 by Nate1647

[Snaked]

They still do not use a click,

 

They absolutely positively without a shadow of a doubt do on this tour.

At least 2 songs in the first set are fully sequenced as well as 1 in the second. (I haven't watched EVERY song close enough to see what else is and is not clicked, sorry).

[Nate1647]

mind sharing which ones?

[Jaminbenb]

They still do not use a click, I'm not really sure where people are getting the idea that they are for this tour. Check out Manhattan Project, in the few breaks in the beginning you can clearly hear Neil clicking his sticks to stay in time, and all over the place you can see him pushing and pulling the tempo. You can't push and pull to a click track. If you've watched Neils latest instructional dvd, you know that pushing and pulling to create a sense of groove or urgency is something that the band has been working hard on (on the Time Machine Tour, as well as this one). Listen to some boots of Clockwork Angels, and the 2 seperate verses are all over the place (in a good way). No clicks to be found.

 

And I hope that they never use backing tracks (although I don't think they ever will.) They pride themselves on triggering everything themselves, and they are REALLY damn good at it. To someone who's played drums and bass in Rush tunes, I can tell you that its so freaking hard to multitask like they do, and they make it look easy. It's one of my favorite parts of the band too, and other fans who are really strong musicans i know will agree with me. Also, I think some songs would be harder playing to backing tracks. As many sampled parts and time changes as Rush songs have, one slip up and the rest of the track is out the window if you're on a click. With the pedals, you can hit the wrong trigger, figure out the trainwreck, and then regroup (see the actual live TMT version of presto, not the doctored one of the DVD).

 

Where've you been? Neil is on the click, has been for a LONG time! Remember when he used to put headphones on during different songs...now he gets a click feed in his in-ear monitors!

 

They are synced to some sounds as well as video! And no I don't have a problem with it....I read way back that THEY did the programming and "typing in" of what they play to live!

[Nate1647]

Neil doesn't use a click!!!! He used to in the 80s when he first introduced the Simmons pads, but not anymore. The headphones were just a temporary replacement for his IEM's beause he had an ear infection. He has the sampled parts fed through his IEM's louder in the mix so he can stay in time with them, but NEVER a click. He has a little metronome next to his snare drum that flashes a few counts before each song so he can get a reference point for the stick click intro, but that's it. Sheesh people.

 

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/rush/modern-drummer-12.2011.php

 

Scroll down to the "Freewill" part.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Nate1647

[Snaked]

This is a non-spoiler forum. The OP made a mistake by starting this thread here.

Nate, I sent you a PM.

[Nate1647]

Waiting for a response man! Edited April 1, 2013 by Nate1647

[GeoffMutton]

Apologies if I've posted in the wrong forum. I'll have a hunt for the posting rules and have a scan before I start any other threads.

My original post wasn't really discussing what they may or may not be doing on the present tour, it was a question to find out what fans themselves think of the 'all live' philosophy and whether it's an unnecessary exercise, or an important part of what makes Rush Rush.

[Sticklight]

According to the S&A Backstage Documentary, Neil doesn't use a click track.

[GeoffMutton]

I'm not asking whether they do use a click / backing tracks or not. I'm asking whether people really genuinely care.

[eshine]

Hey Geoff - thanks for the thread it is an interesting subject because Rush are a band that has embraced technology and often it is suggested that they either "cheat" by using triggered backing tracks or aren't walking the "tightrope" by relying on click tracks, ect.

 

My opinion:

 

As a fan and musician, it is abundantly clear to me that they are not taking an easy way out by triggering samples on stage and if they do use a click track, I really could care less.

 

I had the great fortune, thanks to a wonderfully kind member her at TRF, to finally see the band front row last year. It was mind-boggling the level of technical skill and mastery while still being entirely "present" in the songs. I was especially amazed by watching Geddy, with his variety of roles, managing both technical precision while bringing abundant emotion to his performance. Same with Alex - just listen to him solo. Neil is especially loose on this tour.

 

When I see a Rush show - I am taken with the overall "production" of what they do as well as the pure musicianship of each member. The layers and samples do not distract for me but bring flourishes to the show - particularly when I know each and every one is being triggered by a band member. The amount of skill and precision that takes is so impressive to me. Sure, there was a time when they allowed for technology to bog them down on stage - and it showed in the performance (the HYF tour comes to mind - Ged has mentioned many times how he felt burdened by constraints of his own making on that tour)

 

To me, the last decade of touring has represented a terrific balance of artful production, raw musicianship... and even (gasp) improvisation.

 

I see no reason at all to change things, as I have never seen them more "joyful" on stage then I have these last few tours.

Edited April 2, 2013 by eshine

[ShlappinDahBass]

I have major doubts they use click tracks. They know how to count.

 

I wouldn't really mind if they used samples or not. It can make songs cooler. I think it's more of a personal thing for them to challenge themselves to make it sound more like the album version.

[RushBoingo]

Wow this topic is pushed back and forth alot. I know for sure they do use the click track on some songs, they confirmed in an interview "Time stand still is one of the few songs we have to run a click track on". Any way, I know they already do use click for songs that either has a continuing synth loop like in leave that thing alone, or Grand Designs, because either it is very hard to do without (in the case of the vocals on TSS), or just is justified for the continuous sound. Despite this, they say they prefer not to use click, and do all the triggers themself to avoid it because it really limits their freedom as musicians. If they wanted to, I would not mind, but I am sure they will keep away from it as best they can.

[rushgoober]

Um, who cares? (ok, apparently some people do)

[Alex]

Ultimately it comes down to what the boys want to do. Most of the times, when addressing this issue, they say they enjoy doing most of the sounds themselves.

[Nate1647]

Wow this topic is pushed back and forth alot. I know for sure they do use the click track on some songs, they confirmed in an interview "Time stand still is one of the few songs we have to run a click track on". Any way, I know they already do use click for songs that either has a continuing synth loop like in leave that thing alone, or Grand Designs, because either it is very hard to do without (in the case of the vocals on TSS), or just is justified for the continuous sound. Despite this, they say they prefer not to use click, and do all the triggers themself to avoid it because it really limits their freedom as musicians. If they wanted to, I would not mind, but I am sure they will keep away from it as best they can.

 

That was when they were playing TSS in the late 80's, before they had the IEM (in ear monitor) tech that they do now. Now all they have to do is pump a specific tempo'd part into Neil's ears a little louder in the mix and they are fine. And where are you getting your info that GD or LTTA or clicked? You couldn't be more wrong. Listen hard to the push and pull of the tempo done by Neil, when the samples aren't playing. It's something they've been striving for a lot these past few tours and they are very proud of it. There is no way those songs are clicked. And yea, it is difficult to play to stuff with no click, but if a bunch of guys in their early 20's can do it (my friends and I), then 3 of the greatest musicians on the planet can. Once you get the hang of the tempos in your head, its really quite easy.

[Thunder Bay Rush]

I'm not a fan of any sequencing during a "live" show. One of the things I liked most about Rush when I started listening back in '76 is that they played fairly complex music, all live. Imagine playing Xanadu back in 77... all live. Rush's music today is so complex with layers of guitars and keyboards. I love the new music, but I think I'd rather they go back to writing music in a more simple form, so they CAN play it live.

[Lerxster]

I think in the 80's they had a little help backstage triggering things. Somebody changing floppys. They seem to do it all themselves since then. It's not important to me they do it all themselves. It just makes them even more impressive and God-like.

[Nate1647]

They still have people "changing the floppys." (although now its just presets on the samplers lol). That doesn't count as playing though, it just loads all the sounds to the pedals/keys/pads for the next song. Just like Gump pressing the "next" button in Neils older solos for patch changes.

[Lerxster]

They still have people "changing the floppys." (although now its just presets on the samplers lol). That doesn't count as playing though, it just loads all the sounds to the pedals/keys/pads for the next song. Just like Gump pressing the "next" button in Neils older solos for patch changes.

Yes of course you're right, but I think back in the 80's there there were also some triggers triggered off stage until they figured out how to trigger everything themselves. That's a lot of trigger.

[presto123]

Neil does not use a click. Don't you read his books? He specifically talks about this subject. The only time he would use a click is in a big sequencer part like The Weapon or to stay in time with a film track on the back screen. Neil is a purist in this regard and I agree. Part of being a great drummer is solid meter. Neil reviews tapes of live shows periodically to see if he is pushing or pulling the tempo on various songs.