THE NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

**Rick N. Backer** · February 7, 2015

I'd say, in order of advantages:

1) Noisegate
2) Textgate
3) Deflategate

Noise level is huge. It's what makes games at Arrowhead or the bird's nest or wherever Sherman will play as the #2 corner in the league next year so tough for the offense. If the whole O line can't hear the playcalls correctly it could be a recipie for disaster. Texting stuff that the opposing QB's up to I guess it all depends on what the info is. I'd rank this higher than deflating footballs a bit because from the reaction of most QB's past and present this has been happening for a very long time and lots of teams do it.
What's the difference between false start penalties between visiting team at so called loud stadiums and the rest of them? Maybe one every four games at most, it's likely not statistically significant. A QBs grip on the ball affects 40 plays per game.

Deflategate is easily provides the biggest advantage of the three.

Is that why KC and Seattle are tough at home even when they're merely average teams? Because of false start penalties? Or is it because running an offense when you can't hear yourself think is more difficult?

If the refs and Jackson couldn't tell the ball was "deflated" it probably means they really weren't perceptibly different. Well, except the one Jackson caught. After it left his hands I guess.
From 2002-11 the Chiefs had the same amount of HFA as....wait for it...the Jaguars.

They are slightly ahead of the Chargers though. The Seachickens are fourth. But in general coastal teams are going to have a greater advantage not beause of the noise but because of the travel and time changes. Just for reference, the Clowns were only slightly above average.

http://www.sportingc...y-nfl-team.aspx

As far as "Somewhere along the line I heard on the radio that someone had given a group of former or current NFL players a blind test with some balls at 10.5 psi and some at 12.5 psi and they couldn't really tell the difference." SportsCenter had Brunnell and Bettis throw and catch balls with different pressure and there was no question in either of their minds as to which was the deflated ball.
Was Brunnell crying when he did it? Because I know this whole sordid affair upsets him.

How did Bettis do in SB 36 and 38, after his top seeded Steelers knocked off the 2 seed at home in the AFC Championship?
Good point. Bettis OBVIOUSLY has an agenda against Sts. William, Thomas, and Robert (the first Jewish saint since St. Paul). Maybe not against Brady so much because he wasn't on the field for any points in the AFC Championship Game in 2001/2.

Not as much as Pagano and Harbaugh though. Those guys were willing to frame an innocent Aaron Hernandez just because they couldn't devise a defense for the Patriots 2 TE attack. If St. Robert was a vindictive man, those guys would be locked up for a good long time.

Not all that. I'm just wondering if Brunnell is always such an unimpeachable source of knowledge in your view, or if they've been elevated to "sainthood" by you because they're supporting your charges against BELICHEAT and the DEFLATRIOTS.

When I was a young prosecutor we were warned about getting too excited about a witness that seemed to be really eager to be helpful to your case, since it was possible that they just wanted to help you "get" the defendant. Something worth considering. You don't want your eyewitness prostitute to be revealed to have actually been in another state on the date of the crime.
So now Mark Brunell is out to get the Patriots too? He has an axe to grind, whereas of course Brady and Belichick (with their impeccable record of honesty) are as pure as the driven snow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSbfqCO8XBI

No. I just find it interesting that Drew Bledsoe says it wouldn't make sense for the Patriots to deflate the balls and you suggest he's wrong. Brunnell tells you he could tell the difference without question and you say "Well, he must be right. He agrees with my conclusion." You should contact the Obama administration about working as their global climate change czar.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
In all fairness, there is no reason to deflate the balls except for the quarterback wanting them to be that way. The Patriots would have won that game regardless so that is a moot point. But to think Brady didn't know about the balls being deflated is simply silly. They random psi is probably due to the fact that it was done on the fly.

But again, that goes against the explanation we're being given for why the balls were deflated to accommodate Brady without triggering the suspicion of at least 1 ref before every play, and eventually D'Qwell Jackson. What happens if too much air is let out of the ball, and it either is too flat for Brady's liking, or the ref notices that the ball is flat? Or why the ball the Colts turned over to the league was the one that had the lowest psi by far.

I don't know if this is true or not, but we were discussing this this morning at my barber's. He said that Jackson is saying he still has the actual ball he intercepted. Has anyone else heard this?
Nope, haven't heard it. Let me guess, it was breaking news on WEEI? Michael Hurley reporting?

Nothing here though (google: d'qwell jackson still has deflategate ball).

https://www.google.c...eflategate ball

It seems he doesn't have the ball. But does the below article cause you any concern since the genesis of your charges against the Deflatriots is inarguably false? No, right? It doesn't matter how you get to "the Patriots are cheaters" as long as you get there, right?

http://www.indystar....riots/22183219/

**laughedatbytime** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.

Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

**laughedatbytime** · February 7, 2015

I'd say, in order of advantages:

1) Noisegate
2) Textgate
3) Deflategate

Noise level is huge. It's what makes games at Arrowhead or the bird's nest or wherever Sherman will play as the #2 corner in the league next year so tough for the offense. If the whole O line can't hear the playcalls correctly it could be a recipie for disaster. Texting stuff that the opposing QB's up to I guess it all depends on what the info is. I'd rank this higher than deflating footballs a bit because from the reaction of most QB's past and present this has been happening for a very long time and lots of teams do it.
What's the difference between false start penalties between visiting team at so called loud stadiums and the rest of them? Maybe one every four games at most, it's likely not statistically significant. A QBs grip on the ball affects 40 plays per game.

Deflategate is easily provides the biggest advantage of the three.

Is that why KC and Seattle are tough at home even when they're merely average teams? Because of false start penalties? Or is it because running an offense when you can't hear yourself think is more difficult?

If the refs and Jackson couldn't tell the ball was "deflated" it probably means they really weren't perceptibly different. Well, except the one Jackson caught. After it left his hands I guess.
From 2002-11 the Chiefs had the same amount of HFA as....wait for it...the Jaguars.

They are slightly ahead of the Chargers though. The Seachickens are fourth. But in general coastal teams are going to have a greater advantage not beause of the noise but because of the travel and time changes. Just for reference, the Clowns were only slightly above average.

http://www.sportingc...y-nfl-team.aspx

As far as "Somewhere along the line I heard on the radio that someone had given a group of former or current NFL players a blind test with some balls at 10.5 psi and some at 12.5 psi and they couldn't really tell the difference." SportsCenter had Brunnell and Bettis throw and catch balls with different pressure and there was no question in either of their minds as to which was the deflated ball.
Was Brunnell crying when he did it? Because I know this whole sordid affair upsets him.

How did Bettis do in SB 36 and 38, after his top seeded Steelers knocked off the 2 seed at home in the AFC Championship?
Good point. Bettis OBVIOUSLY has an agenda against Sts. William, Thomas, and Robert (the first Jewish saint since St. Paul). Maybe not against Brady so much because he wasn't on the field for any points in the AFC Championship Game in 2001/2.

Not as much as Pagano and Harbaugh though. Those guys were willing to frame an innocent Aaron Hernandez just because they couldn't devise a defense for the Patriots 2 TE attack. If St. Robert was a vindictive man, those guys would be locked up for a good long time.

Not all that. I'm just wondering if Brunnell is always such an unimpeachable source of knowledge in your view, or if they've been elevated to "sainthood" by you because they're supporting your charges against BELICHEAT and the DEFLATRIOTS.

When I was a young prosecutor we were warned about getting too excited about a witness that seemed to be really eager to be helpful to your case, since it was possible that they just wanted to help you "get" the defendant. Something worth considering. You don't want your eyewitness prostitute to be revealed to have actually been in another state on the date of the crime.
So now Mark Brunell is out to get the Patriots too? He has an axe to grind, whereas of course Brady and Belichick (with their impeccable record of honesty) are as pure as the driven snow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSbfqCO8XBI

No. I just find it interesting that Drew Bledsoe says it wouldn't make sense for the Patriots to deflate the balls and you suggest he's wrong. Brunnell tells you he could tell the difference without question and you say "Well, he must be right. He agrees with my conclusion." You should contact the Obama administration about working as their global climate change czar.

It was a blind test. Unless the entire Worldwide Leader is conspiring against the Holy Trinity.

You'd like me as Obama's global climate change czar, by the way.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Rick N. Backer

**laughedatbytime** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

**troutman** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

Thats what they are paid to do,

Why have a rule if it is not enforced? :LOL:

**laughedatbytime** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

Thats what they are paid to do,

Why have a rule if it is not enforced?

Of course, they're paid to do that, and of course rules are made to be enforced.

Certainly you're not so naive as to believe they're all enforced correctly. Even in snowstorms.

**troutman** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

Thats what they are paid to do,

Why have a rule if it is not enforced?
Of course, they're paid to do that, and of course rules are made to be enforced.

Certainly you're not so naive as to believe they're all enforced correctly. Even in snowstorms.

Seriously?

Are you referring to the "tuck rule"? Also, you say they are paid to do that. Then they need to do there fu***** job! Blame the league not the Patriots.

**laughedatbytime** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

Thats what they are paid to do,

Why have a rule if it is not enforced?
Of course, they're paid to do that, and of course rules are made to be enforced.

Certainly you're not so naive as to believe they're all enforced correctly. Even in snowstorms.

Seriously?

Are you referring to the "tuck rule"? Also, you say they are paid to do that. Then they need to do there fu***** job! Blame the league not the Patriots.

Interesting concept. It's OK for teams to cheat as long as you're not caught.

I agree the refs should do their job. They didn't in this case. Doesn't excuse the Patriots.

The Tuck Rule was an actual rule. An idiotic one to be sure but a rule. There are other incidents with the Patriots during snowstorms where the officials didn't do their jobs.

**troutman** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

Thats what they are paid to do,

Why have a rule if it is not enforced?
Of course, they're paid to do that, and of course rules are made to be enforced.

Certainly you're not so naive as to believe they're all enforced correctly. Even in snowstorms.

Seriously?

Are you referring to the "tuck rule"? Also, you say they are paid to do that. Then they need to do there fu***** job! Blame the league not the Patriots.
Interesting concept. It's OK for teams to cheat as long as you're not caught.

I agree the refs should do their job. They didn't in this case. Doesn't excuse the Patriots.

The Tuck Rule was an actual rule. An idiotic one to be sure but a rule. There are other incidents with the Patriots during snowstorms where the officials didn't do their jobs.

Your right,

That rule was enforced even though it was BS! But again your blaming the Patriots for some thing that hasn't been proven. Like I said before blame the league not the Patriots.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 7, 2015

If Brady wanted the balls deflated, why wouldn't they all have been at roughly the same psi? Some are at 12.5, some are at 11.5, some are at 10.5? I thought any deviation creates an enormous difference in feel?
First of all, do we know for certain at what psi's the balls were? I haven't seen anything definitive.

Second of all, we have to assume that all of the balls were at the same pressure when they were measured before the game, because Brady has said he likes his balls a certain way and there's no reason for them not to be. Keep in mind that he and Manning lobbied the league for the ability to have their own balls, so even if he did nothing after the initial weigh in they would have been the same. And if they were subject to the same elements that deflated them to begin with (sorry, needed to catch my breath...I'm just glad I didn't type that while I was drinking or I'd be buying a new laptop) then they should be at the same inflation when they started that way, so I don't see how this bit of conjecture helps your case.

We haven't. Which makes your zeal to accept the fact that they CERTAINLY were all INTENTIONALLY deflated by or for Brady curious. But you still haven't addressed what's leaked, which is that the only ball at about 10.5 psi was the one the Colts turned over, and that others were just below 12.5 psi. I'll even throw in for you that some were at 11.5 psi. Why would Brady want a bunch of balls that felt different? Because your argument is that the deflation drastically changed the feel of the ball and was done intentionally. Wouldn't having balls that felt so different risk getting one that was too flat or too full at any given time?

Your "case" is the one that's based entirely on conjecture. And a fair amount of nonsense to boot.
What nonsense? That Pagano and Harbaugh conspired against Sts. Robert, William, and Thomas? That the bone chilling 50 degree temperature deflated the balls all by itself and in an uneven manner but that stamping a horseshoe on the side of it somehow made the balls immune to that sort of random deflation? Glad I don't have to defend that position...

Far more likely that the person who deflated the balls (which almost certainly wasn't Brady), given the constraints of the lack of time, need to be clandestine, and to concerned about being observed, deflated them somewhat unevenly. Any lack of complete exactness in the balls is less important than that every one of the balls was easier to grip than they were in their undeflated state.

I see. So the specifics of how they feel isn't as important as that they simply be under 12.5 psi? Of course, that sort of goes against the "princess and pea" explanation we're being fed for why Brady could tell the ball was deflated and the refs and D'Qwell Jackson could not.
Not really saying that at all. What I am saying is that Brady gains feel from a lighter ball and that the exact amount of psi isn't as important as the general principal that he'd have a lighter ball. You're constantly trying to increase the bar for impropriety to ridiculous heights and then saying if you can't meet those standards it's not really a problem.

And you're seriously comparing the type of feel that Tom Brady has for a ball with D'Qwell Jackson's? Tom Brady didn't fight for the right for Vince Wlifork or Dante Hightower to have the balls prepared the way they wanted them...

“The thing is, every quarterback likes it a little bit different,” Brady told the Sun-Sentinel... “Some like them blown up a little bit more, some like them a little more thin, some like them a little more new, some like them really broken in.”

Of course the Sun Sentinel's a Florida paper, so this is likely another attempt to frame the Holy Trinity.

What about the refs, including the one whose job it is to check the balls before each game? Assuming he touched the balls again at least once on the field, he didn't notice the difference? And you're suggesting that the Patriots wouldn't be concerned that that same ref might touch one of their game balls at some point and notice they're off?

In your zeal to convict the Patriots of cheating, you're willing to swallow any BS explanation you're given to support that conclusion.
Isn't projection fun? It's almost like I'm in SOCN again.

Of all the things you've mentioned this is the only thing that gives me a bit of pause, that the officials didn't notice and they do handle the balls more than a LB who gets an interception once every two years. Yet the balls WERE different, as measured at halftime. My theory is that the officials have a myriad of other things to do and weren't considering problems with the balls that were already measured before the game.

By the way, you still haven't addressed the significant problem that all balls were similar in psi prior to the game but not at halftime (including balls never in the Colts possession) even though they were exposed to the same brutal cold...

Actually, you have. Has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them? Be careful here. You mentioned SOCN. If you answer this one a certain way your entire "case" collapses. Lord knows that in that particular subforum there are a few folks who can't quite type out "Maybe I was wrong." I wouldn't want to put you in that position here.

Your attempts to frame Pagano and Harbaugh would draw eyerolls from WC. Well, maybe not. But your attempts to do so would, if applied elsewhere, put you in the truther camp. As long as the level of discourse and logic exceeds that of sports talk radio, I'm perfectly fine about how my posts will be perceived (outside of the kool aid drinkers.)

As far as answering 'has the league indicated that the psi of all the balls were actually measured with a pressure gauge by the refs before the game? Or did the refs just "feel" them?", I am unaware of the league indicating anything. If you have anything that isn't from Mother Jones/Daily Kos/Huff Po/billmoyers.comWEEI that answers it, please share.

Also, if the balls were all brought up to 12.5 psi at halftime, I think your DEFLATRIOTS and BELICHEAT line runs into a little problem, no?

No...why does it? I never indicated that the Patriots couldn't play with normally inflated balls, just that someone on their sideline didn't trust them to. Remember, I'm the one that brought up the Nixonian aspect of the whole thing...IT WASN'T NECESSARY TO CHEAT TO BEAT THE COLTS!

EDIT: They had other things on their minds? Are you serious? We're talking about whether something would "feel" different in your hands. Not whether you remembered to bust out your pressure gauge at a particular time.

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

Thats what they are paid to do,

Why have a rule if it is not enforced?
Of course, they're paid to do that, and of course rules are made to be enforced.

Certainly you're not so naive as to believe they're all enforced correctly. Even in snowstorms.

Seriously?

Are you referring to the "tuck rule"? Also, you say they are paid to do that. Then they need to do there fu***** job! Blame the league not the Patriots.
Interesting concept. It's OK for teams to cheat as long as you're not caught.

I agree the refs should do their job. They didn't in this case. Doesn't excuse the Patriots.

The Tuck Rule was an actual rule. An idiotic one to be sure but a rule. There are other incidents with the Patriots during snowstorms where the officials didn't do their jobs.

Your right,

That rule was enforced even though it was BS! But again your blaming the Patriots for some thing that hasn't been proven. Like I said before blame the league not the Patriots.

He doesn't care if it's ever established that the Patriots cheated. He just wants to be able to say they did. When the league comes out and says that most of the allegations upon which he has based his witch hunt (the righteous rise) were false he'll keep calling them the Cheatriots. He's still talking about a groundskeeper clearing a spot for John Smith to kick a field goal on from 40 years ago for goodness sake.

Incidentally, odd that the refs and that whiny baby Shula didn't do anything when that happened right in front of them. Maybe it's because there was no rule against it.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 7, 2015

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

They handled the balls. You're claiming that Mark Brunnell knew the difference between a 12.5 and a 10.5 psi ball. Refs whose job it is to check the balls before the game, and who allegedly ordinarily do so by "feel," wouldn't notice it when a ball is tossed to them though, huh? Because they're too busy thinking about the spot of the ball? Whether they've alerted the Colts to who the eligible receivers on the field are clearly enough? C'mon.

**g under p** · February 9, 2015

That sign kid show up at the parade....

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.boston.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2015/02/signkid.jpg

Edited February 9, 2015 by g under p

**laughedatbytime** · February 9, 2015

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

They handled the balls. You're claiming that Mark Brunnell knew the difference between a 12.5 and a 10.5 psi ball. Refs whose job it is to check the balls before the game, and who allegedly ordinarily do so by "feel," wouldn't notice it when a ball is tossed to them though, huh? Because they're too busy thinking about the spot of the ball? Whether they've alerted the Colts to who the eligible receivers on the field are clearly enough? C'mon.

You've never given an explanation for why they apparently didn't notice. Then again, you've never given an explanation for why the balls were apparently all of different sizes when they all were of the same size to begin with and why stamping a horseshoe on the side of them made them not deflate when they all were exposed to the same weather.

Oh, that's right, it was Chuck Pagano and Jim Harbaugh using their magical powers to frame Sts. Thomas, William, and Robert. The geniuses on sports talk radio in Boston have it all figured out. I hope Mark Brunell and all the other myriad of people who also don't believe the Holy Trinity enjoy the filthy lucre they get from their shameless lying, labeling those three pillars of sportsmanship.

Reffing isn't a full time job, by the way. You can make some extra money on the side. It's apparently very easy, and there's not a lot to keep track of. And just think of what a hero you can be to the MENSA club at WEEI if you expose the nefarious plot by Vince McMahon and the NFL offices to screw the Patriots-too bad the Saints name is already taken by someone other than Mr. Krafts's team.

**LedRush** · February 9, 2015

That sign kid show up at the parade....

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.boston.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2015/02/signkid.jpg

Good for this kid. It is interesting, though, to see Boston fans claim that Yankees' fans are smug assholes whenever they bring up the number of championships, and then turn around and show pics of this kid all over the place. But intelligence, consistency, and logic are not often attributes of the Boston sports fan.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 9, 2015

That sign kid show up at the parade....

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.boston.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2015/02/signkid.jpg

Good for this kid. It is interesting, though, to see Boston fans claim that Yankees' fans are smug assholes whenever they bring up the number of championships, and then turn around and show pics of this kid all over the place. But intelligence, consistency, and logic are not often attributes of the Boston sports fan.

They are.

The kid is talking about how many championships have occurred in his lifetime. Yankee fans in their 30s proudly crow about championships that occurred before their parents were born.

Of course, that's only one reason Yankees fans are clowns.

**LedRush** · February 9, 2015

That sign kid show up at the parade....

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.boston.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2015/02/signkid.jpg

Good for this kid. It is interesting, though, to see Boston fans claim that Yankees' fans are smug assholes whenever they bring up the number of championships, and then turn around and show pics of this kid all over the place. But intelligence, consistency, and logic are not often attributes of the Boston sports fan.

They are.

The kid is talking about how many championships have occurred in his lifetime. Yankee fans in their 30s proudly crow about championships that occurred before their parents were born.

Of course, that's only one reason Yankees fans are clowns.

So this kid was a few months old when the Pats won their first one, so he can brag about that. But if he were 12, he couldn't reference that. Wow, this is really stupid.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 9, 2015

I'm completely serious about the officials not noticing because they were thinking about the other myriad of things they had to think about, especially in a game involving a coach who would do everything within the rules to gain an advantage and a team that uses pace of play as an important strategic element of their game plan. It's extremely likely that they wouldn't notice any improprieties....and after all, there WERE some, and they DIDN'T notice.

They handled the balls. You're claiming that Mark Brunnell knew the difference between a 12.5 and a 10.5 psi ball. Refs whose job it is to check the balls before the game, and who allegedly ordinarily do so by "feel," wouldn't notice it when a ball is tossed to them though, huh? Because they're too busy thinking about the spot of the ball? Whether they've alerted the Colts to who the eligible receivers on the field are clearly enough? C'mon.
You've never given an explanation for why they apparently didn't notice. Then again, you've never given an explanation for why the balls were apparently all of different sizes when they all were of the same size to begin with and why stamping a horseshoe on the side of them made them not deflate when they all were exposed to the same weather.

Oh, that's right, it was Chuck Pagano and Jim Harbaugh using their magical powers to frame Sts. Thomas, William, and Robert. The geniuses on sports talk radio in Boston have it all figured out. I hope Mark Brunell and all the other myriad of people who also don't believe the Holy Trinity enjoy the filthy lucre they get from their shameless lying, labeling those three pillars of sportsmanship.

Reffing isn't a full time job, by the way. You can make some extra money on the side. It's apparently very easy, and there's not a lot to keep track of. And just think of what a hero you can be to the MENSA club at WEEI if you expose the nefarious plot by Vince McMahon and the NFL offices to screw the Patriots-too bad the Saints name is already taken by someone other than Mr. Krafts's team.

Yes I have. Several times in fact. It's because the difference in psi made no noticeable difference in the feel of the balls. You just keep ignoring that because, like all character assassination efforts done by innuendo, this one has already served your purpose. You don't care if it's true or not anymore.

And none of this will make it less true that the Dolphins haven't even appeared in a Super Bowl in over 30 years. They haven't won one in more than 40 years. Tell me again why your team is less laughable than the Browns or Jaguars at this point?

**Rick N. Backer** · February 9, 2015

That sign kid show up at the parade....

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.boston.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2015/02/signkid.jpg

Good for this kid. It is interesting, though, to see Boston fans claim that Yankees' fans are smug assholes whenever they bring up the number of championships, and then turn around and show pics of this kid all over the place. But intelligence, consistency, and logic are not often attributes of the Boston sports fan.

They are.

The kid is talking about how many championships have occurred in his lifetime. Yankee fans in their 30s proudly crow about championships that occurred before their parents were born.

Of course, that's only one reason Yankees fans are clowns.

So this kid was a few months old when the Pats won their first one, so he can brag about that. But if he were 12, he couldn't reference that. Wow, this is really stupid.

No more idiotic than Yankees fans in their 30s ridiculing other teams because of the outcome of the 1927 World Series. Actually it's less stupid, because at least it illustrates a pretty stunning period of dominance. How many of the 1921 Yankees were still on the 2009 team?

And, like I said, it's really only one of many, many reasons Yankees fans are clowns.

**Lost In Xanadu** · February 9, 2015

FFS labt - get back in SOCN. You need to start debating real topics, not beating this horse to f*cking death.

**Rick N. Backer** · February 9, 2015

FFS labt - get back in SOCN. You need to start debating real topics, not beating this horse to f*cking death.

You make a good point. It is worth noting who the people are that are clinging to this story like a life preserver.

**LedRush** · February 9, 2015

That sign kid show up at the parade....

http://wac.9ebf.edgecastcdn.net/809EBF/ec-origin.boston.barstoolsports.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/2/files/2015/02/signkid.jpg

Good for this kid. It is interesting, though, to see Boston fans claim that Yankees' fans are smug assholes whenever they bring up the number of championships, and then turn around and show pics of this kid all over the place. But intelligence, consistency, and logic are not often attributes of the Boston sports fan.

They are.

The kid is talking about how many championships have occurred in his lifetime. Yankee fans in their 30s proudly crow about championships that occurred before their parents were born.

Of course, that's only one reason Yankees fans are clowns.

So this kid was a few months old when the Pats won their first one, so he can brag about that. But if he were 12, he couldn't reference that. Wow, this is really stupid.

No more idiotic than Yankees fans in their 30s ridiculing other teams because of the outcome of the 1927 World Series. Actually it's less stupid, because at least it illustrates a pretty stunning period of dominance. How many of the 1921 Yankees were still on the 2009 team?

And, like I said, it's really only one of many, many reasons Yankees fans are clowns.

I've never, ever heard someone ridiculing another team because of the outcome of the '27 World Series. This whole line of reasoning is ridiculous, especially as you hypocritically engage in the activity you deride.

**LedRush** · February 9, 2015

FFS labt - get back in SOCN. You need to start debating real topics, not beating this horse to f*cking death.

RNB is this topic's Reb, and LABT has been sucked in yet again.

**troutman** · February 9, 2015

FFS labt - get back in SOCN. You need to start debating real topics, not beating this horse to f*cking death.

:beathorse: :P

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