Was it really worth it? Vapor Trails VS Vapor Trails (Remix)

[EagleMoon]

I stll blame ged's My favorite Headache for the melodies on structures on VT. MFH Was VT the prequel. Very similar.

 

Mick

 

But MFH was actually mixed well.

 

that it was.....but it is clear it is VT's inspiration. Melodies are similar. Chorus of Ged's

 

Mick

 

I never thought about that but you're right.

[Segue Myles]

I stll blame ged's My favorite Headache for the melodies on structures on VT. MFH Was VT the prequel. Very similar.

 

Mick

 

I will probably love it.

[bluefox4000]

I stll blame ged's My favorite Headache for the melodies on structures on VT. MFH Was VT the prequel. Very similar.

 

Mick

 

But MFH was actually mixed well.

 

that it was.....but it is clear it is VT's inspiration. Melodies are similar. Chorus of Ged's

 

Mick

 

I never thought about that but you're right.

 

Listen to some MFH then a little VT......blueprints are all there. I want to hit him with a rolled up newspaper and say...NO, lol

 

Mick

[bluefox4000]

I stll blame ged's My favorite Headache for the melodies on structures on VT. MFH Was VT the prequel. Very similar.

 

Mick

 

I will probably love it.

 

or hate it......you're Segue, lol

 

Mick

[thirteen]

Worth it for the improvement in sound quality.

Too bad it ruined Ceiling Unlimited though.

But Vapor Trails (the song) is absolutely brilliant.

[EagleMoon]

I hear it too........is Neil even there on CA? lol

 

Mick

 

The only thing that's way up front on that album is the bass and it's extremely distorted. I think that's part of the reason everything sounds so muffled. If they would bring the instruments equally up front again it would be a huge improvement. Sometimes the old ways really are better.

For a long time I've noticed that Geddy's bass is front and center and that is something I could never understand.

 

Is there a musical reason that I am unaware of for the bass being center and poor Alex off to the side?

 

I have a feeling it's because he has the most control over what goes on.

I'm surprised Alex lets him do it. Considering there would be no Rush if he hadn't been for Alex. I cannot recall if I have ever heard another band that puts the bass player front and center.

 

They do if the bass player is the main musician in the band. For example, someone like Marcus Miller or Victor Wooten get pushed way up in the mix because they're trying to bring their playing out. In this instance I think it's because Ged is the singer, keyboardist and bassist so he has the most control over the sound. I have a feeling that Alex is more laid-back about the whole thing and would rather just do his parts and then go eat a taco. :D

[Segue Myles]

I stll blame ged's My favorite Headache for the melodies on structures on VT. MFH Was VT the prequel. Very similar.

 

Mick

 

I will probably love it.

 

or hate it......you're Segue, lol

 

Mick

 

but then love it...I am Segue, lol

[EagleMoon]

I stll blame ged's My favorite Headache for the melodies on structures on VT. MFH Was VT the prequel. Very similar.

 

Mick

 

I will probably love it.

 

or hate it......you're Segue, lol

 

Mick

 

And then love it again. :)

 

Beat me to it.

Edited December 23, 2014 by EagleMoon

[maxdistortion]

I think the original

I also don't listen to Vapor Trails very much. I love the title track, Nocturne, Secret Touch and Earthshine, thast about it.

 

That being said, I tried very hard to get into the new remix, and just can't. I miss the raw power of the original. Even if it is "brickwalled" and "ear fatiguing", the fact that they went the polar opposite and really went overboard to 'shine' everything doesn't do anything for me. in fact, its even less 'balanced' soundingthan the original.

 

I agree wtih almost all of this, I like a lot of the songs on Vapor Trails but the original mix was terrible. The remix is terrible in different ways, it seems like a lot of the energy of the songs was stripped out. So to answer the question I would say no, the remix was not worth it. Why does Rush have such problems getting good sound in the last 20 years? I'm still mad about the horrible mixing of Rush in Rio and the CA tour, which both had setlists I loved but atrocious sound.

 

it's one of my criticisms. This band seems to have forgotten how to make a good sounding album......just blanked on it, lol they need better people. it happened with Snakes......fluke i geuss.

 

Mick

 

I would agree 100 percent, Snakes was a fantastic sounding album, too bad long-term I dont listen to anything off it these days, save for Monkey Business and Maligant Narcissism, easily their most "f**k yeah" moments of that album.

 

If you guys remember, those guys used to spend FOREVER in the studio. Geddy oversaw much of the production in Different Stages (the result... very thick, heavy, beefy sound). Alex had a small part in all the 2000's live DVD's . So maybe its possible that in their advancing age they decided that they'll leave the mixing to the pros, and aren't going to get too stressed/inundated with attempting to make everything absolutely perfect.

 

Two other theories I have.

 

1 - I think the problem is actually alot to do with MASTERING. Back when Bob Ludwig used to master pretty much 90 percent of most rock records, (at least the ones we all know and love), there was a beautiful transparency and dynamic range that we all took for granted. Its theoretically possible to screw up a great mix, with terrible mastering.

 

and that kinda coincides with my next theory --

 

2 - Engineers are mixing "for downloaded audio". In the early 2000's, the overwhelming majority of most people would buy CD's over downloading on iTunes. So there were stil some good sounding records here and there. But now that the industry has mostly shifted to downoaded audio, for some reason people mix according to two things -

 

a) , the "compressed" nature of encoded downloadble audio (which is not as bad sounding as it is on paper),

b) most people are rocking the tiny earbuds or the laptop speakers. The unspoken "movement" in music today is to mix according to those standards.... therefore... super compressed... very little top end /treble.... muddy...sounds tolerable on ipod earbuds, but anything of higher fidelity with more frequency range (such as big-can headphones or car stereo system)...prety bad

 

sorry. I get fired up about this. haha.

[EagleMoon]

I think the original

I also don't listen to Vapor Trails very much. I love the title track, Nocturne, Secret Touch and Earthshine, thast about it.

 

That being said, I tried very hard to get into the new remix, and just can't. I miss the raw power of the original. Even if it is "brickwalled" and "ear fatiguing", the fact that they went the polar opposite and really went overboard to 'shine' everything doesn't do anything for me. in fact, its even less 'balanced' soundingthan the original.

 

I agree wtih almost all of this, I like a lot of the songs on Vapor Trails but the original mix was terrible. The remix is terrible in different ways, it seems like a lot of the energy of the songs was stripped out. So to answer the question I would say no, the remix was not worth it. Why does Rush have such problems getting good sound in the last 20 years? I'm still mad about the horrible mixing of Rush in Rio and the CA tour, which both had setlists I loved but atrocious sound.

 

it's one of my criticisms. This band seems to have forgotten how to make a good sounding album......just blanked on it, lol they need better people. it happened with Snakes......fluke i geuss.

 

Mick

 

I would agree 100 percent, Snakes was a fantastic sounding album, too bad long-term I dont listen to anything off it these days, save for Monkey Business and Maligant Narcissism, easily their most "f**k yeah" moments of that album.

 

If you guys remember, those guys used to spend FOREVER in the studio. Geddy oversaw much of the production in Different Stages (the result... very thick, heavy, beefy sound). Alex had a small part in all the 2000's live DVD's . So maybe its possible that in their advancing age they decided that they'll leave the mixing to the pros, and aren't going to get too stressed/inundated with attempting to make everything absolutely perfect.

 

Two other theories I have.

 

1 - I think the problem is actually alot to do with MASTERING. Back when Bob Ludwig used to master pretty much 90 percent of most rock records, (at least the ones we all know and love), there was a beautiful transparency and dynamic range that we all took for granted. Its theoretically possible to screw up a great mix, with terrible mastering.

 

and that kinda coincides with my next theory --

 

2 - Engineers are mixing "for downloaded audio". In the early 2000's, the overwhelming majority of most people would buy CD's over downloading on iTunes. So there were stil some good sounding records here and there. But now that the industry has mostly shifted to downoaded audio, for some reason people mix according to two things -

 

a) , the "compressed" nature of encoded downloadble audio (which is not as bad sounding as it is on paper),

b) most people are rocking the tiny earbuds or the laptop speakers. The unspoken "movement" in music today is to mix according to those standards.... therefore... super compressed... very little top end /treble.... muddy...sounds tolerable on ipod earbuds, but anything of higher fidelity with more frequency range (such as big-can headphones or car stereo system)...prety bad

 

sorry. I get fired up about this. haha.

 

I agree about the mastering aspect. You can only do so much with the original track. If it's not recorded well to start with, it's going to be harder to make it sound good later. But there are still great sounding albums out there with good dynamic range that don't sound so compressed. I just can't figure out why Rush can't find someone worthy of their music.

[maxdistortion]

I hear it too........is Neil even there on CA? lol

 

Mick

 

The only thing that's way up front on that album is the bass and it's extremely distorted. I think that's part of the reason everything sounds so muffled. If they would bring the instruments equally up front again it would be a huge improvement. Sometimes the old ways really are better.

For a long time I've noticed that Geddy's bass is front and center and that is something I could never understand.

 

Is there a musical reason that I am unaware of for the bass being center and poor Alex off to the side?

 

I have a feeling it's because he has the most control over what goes on.

I'm surprised Alex lets him do it. Considering there would be no Rush if he hadn't been for Alex. I cannot recall if I have ever heard another band that puts the bass player front and center.

 

Eh... listen to Ged's playing on .. .By Tor and the Snow Dog, Anthem, 2112, Freewill, Red Barchetta.. they are very complex... he's been the upfront sound in Rush from day one. Alex may have been going through his Jimmy Page phase, and in my humble opinion didn't come into his own as an individual until around Farewel to Kings/Hemispheres, but at the core, I always thought of Rush being mostly centerd around Ged's basslines. They were very melodic and busy. I woudn't have it any other way.

 

HOWEVER that all being said - even in the 70's and 80s, with his bass being "upfront" it was more simple, and more mid-range based. So it was complimentary. But this past decade, since he's opted for like, as New Digital Man said -- 3 distorted tracks (bloody awful Sansamp ones, at that...), it becomes muddy mess. ESPECIALLY in the low end. That muddy low end. I blame it on the sansamps. He's been using an Orange amp in conjunction with the sansamps in recent tours, and his tone has improved MARGINALLY since S&A tour (which in my opinion was when his bass tone was at its worst).

[EagleMoon]

I hear it too........is Neil even there on CA? lol

 

Mick

 

The only thing that's way up front on that album is the bass and it's extremely distorted. I think that's part of the reason everything sounds so muffled. If they would bring the instruments equally up front again it would be a huge improvement. Sometimes the old ways really are better.

For a long time I've noticed that Geddy's bass is front and center and that is something I could never understand.

 

Is there a musical reason that I am unaware of for the bass being center and poor Alex off to the side?

 

I have a feeling it's because he has the most control over what goes on.

I'm surprised Alex lets him do it. Considering there would be no Rush if he hadn't been for Alex. I cannot recall if I have ever heard another band that puts the bass player front and center.

 

Eh... listen to Ged's playing on .. .By Tor and the Snow Dog, Anthem, 2112, Freewill, Red Barchetta.. they are very complex... he's been the upfront sound in Rush from day one. Alex may have been going through his Jimmy Page phase, and in my humble opinion didn't come into his own as an individual until around Farewel to Kings/Hemispheres, but at the core, I always thought of Rush being mostly centerd around Ged's basslines. They were very melodic and busy. I woudn't have it any other way.

 

HOWEVER that all being said - even in the 70's and 80s, with his bass being "upfront" it was more simple, and more mid-range based. So it was complimentary. But this past decade, since he's opted for like, as New Digital Man said -- 3 distorted tracks (bloody awful Sansamp ones, at that...), it becomes muddy mess. ESPECIALLY in the low end. That muddy low end. I blame it on the sansamps. He's been using an Orange amp in conjunction with the sansamps in recent tours, and his tone has improved MARGINALLY since S&A tour (which in my opinion was when his bass tone was at its worst).

 

He needs to go back to using the Ampeg SVT's. :)

[Narps]

I just know it sounds sh*tty...

[Digital Dad]

Vapor Trails was an album I loved on first hearing and played it constantly for about 4 months. Then I think I started weeding out certain songs and finally really listened to about 3 or 4 of the songs. Ceiling, Peaceable, Touch and Earthshine. I don't think the remix brought anything better out of any of these and now when I listen to CU I feel slightly disorientated. Its so different its like a completely new song. I still love it but its...its just not the same.

 

On the remixI do feel that some tunes like Freeze, TSLD, and Out of the Cradle do sound better in every way and of course Touch doesn't kill my ears like it used to.

 

I'm still really surprised that OLV hasn't become a huge sports anthem.

[New Digital Man]

Yes I believe it was on MFH that Geddy started using the layered (3) tracks of bass and I agree that this whole layering process continued into VT! So it's all Geddy's fault!

[len(songs)]

Yes I believe it was on MFH that Geddy started using the layered (3) tracks of bass and I agree that this whole layering process continued into VT! So it's all Geddy's fault!

No, it started on Driven. Geddy said in a T4E era interview that there were 3 tracks of bass on that song.

[R2U1S1H2]

i feel like Alex makes up the licks and Ged learns it or visa versa, i know they let Ged arrange it but I think it's a group effort!

I'll be honest I have their solo albums but i haven't listened to them!!!

[Pound of Obscure]

I have it now. Listened. Its much better. Ceiling Unlimited still the only song that ever makes me think, dig out VT again. Sounds better. Didn't elevate the songs. Not that I thought it would.