Rush Clocky - mastering/mixing/production

[Gompers]

QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 11:38 AM)

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:32 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 10:47 AM) QUOTE (Lerxster @ Jul 13 2012, 09:45 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 13 2012, 09:34 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 09:33 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 13 2012, 09:30 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 09:27 AM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 09:26 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 10:02 AM) I hope the band produces every album from here to eternity with Nick--he got the best out of them!!! What did collins bring to the albums he produced? what quality does he bring out of Rush that makes his productions superior to Nicks? It is almost universally agreed that CA is the bands best release since the early 80's...why is that? Nick had A LOT to do with it. Just ask the boys. Anyway...someone tell me about Collins and his upside please He brought Caveman to Rush. OK, but what did Collins do for the band??? Caveman isone thing. what does Collins do that is so special??? He helped creat really crisp and dynamic sounding albums, Rush's best sounding albums IMO. CA is a muddy mess. The drums sound completely dead in it. Rush deserves better than this. Nick is a hack producer who only gets hired by garbage mainstream rock bands.   Why do some of the more creative and revered bands out there not work with stock producers like him? Hmmm I wonder... sorry sir, you are in the wee minority on this. everyone else in the world is wrong and your right? Best album since the early 80's is THE consensus.   Anyway...have a nice day dude!       Utterly Flawless     Um, have you read the threads on this board about the sound of this album? Yeah pretty sure Im not alone. You're too busy with your joke review threads to even realize how many people dont love the mix of this album. I have, and most folks don't have a beef with it. A lot wish it sounded better, sure, but it's not a major issue with most regular posters here. thank you lerxter. it is a minority of people who have a problem with sound. I think the CD sounds awesome in a car, a boom box, or a $3000 stereo! I think you are very lucky to be able to either A.) ignore the poor mix B.) not know the difference.   It doesn't stand out to me. Now, admittedly I am no audiophile though I have a deep respect for the quality of sound in music and film. I just don't get it. People in my office who listen to this music with me don't understand the hubbub as well.   Give me an example of where this music falls short in your ears please. In laymans terms if you don't mind.       Carnies, probably the best example, is demolished by too much bass. Right at the beginning, Alex gets drown out once Geddy comes in. Through most of the song, Alex sounds way in the back of the mix. At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Alex gets a properly leveling at about 3:23 then gets lost again at about 3:38.   This is just a quick and dirty analysis.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Gompers

[Tombstone Mountain]

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM)

QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 11:38 AM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:32 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 10:47 AM) QUOTE (Lerxster @ Jul 13 2012, 09:45 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 13 2012, 09:34 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 09:33 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 13 2012, 09:30 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 09:27 AM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 09:26 AM) QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 10:02 AM) I hope the band produces every album from here to eternity with Nick--he got the best out of them!!! What did collins bring to the albums he produced? what quality does he bring out of Rush that makes his productions superior to Nicks? It is almost universally agreed that CA is the bands best release since the early 80's...why is that? Nick had A LOT to do with it. Just ask the boys. Anyway...someone tell me about Collins and his upside please He brought Caveman to Rush. OK, but what did Collins do for the band??? Caveman isone thing. what does Collins do that is so special??? He helped creat really crisp and dynamic sounding albums, Rush's best sounding albums IMO. CA is a muddy mess. The drums sound completely dead in it. Rush deserves better than this. Nick is a hack producer who only gets hired by garbage mainstream rock bands.   Why do some of the more creative and revered bands out there not work with stock producers like him? Hmmm I wonder... sorry sir, you are in the wee minority on this. everyone else in the world is wrong and your right? Best album since the early 80's is THE consensus.   Anyway...have a nice day dude!       Utterly Flawless     Um, have you read the threads on this board about the sound of this album? Yeah pretty sure Im not alone. You're too busy with your joke review threads to even realize how many people dont love the mix of this album. I have, and most folks don't have a beef with it. A lot wish it sounded better, sure, but it's not a major issue with most regular posters here. thank you lerxter. it is a minority of people who have a problem with sound. I think the CD sounds awesome in a car, a boom box, or a $3000 stereo! I think you are very lucky to be able to either A.) ignore the poor mix B.) not know the difference.   It doesn't stand out to me. Now, admittedly I am no audiophile though I have a deep respect for the quality of sound in music and film. I just don't get it. People in my office who listen to this music with me don't understand the hubbub as well.   Give me an example of where this music falls short in your ears please. In laymans terms if you don't mind.       Carnies, probably the best example, is demolished by too much bass. Right at the beginning, Alex gets drown out once Geddy comes in. Through most of the song, Alex sounds way in the back of the mix. At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Alex gets a properly leveling at about 3:23 then gets lost again at about 3:38.   This is just a quick and dirty analysis. I understand what your saying about alex and the pinch harmonic fading a bit. I'll report back to you on that...this will be fun....thanks gompers

[GeminiRising79]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jul 12 2012, 07:08 PM)

wipe the slate clean including nick and his orchestra baton.

I think Neil is on some kind of self-induced trip. He almost continuously appears to be searching too hard for "epic" or profound experiences to reflect back onto either verbally or in writing. It almost seems forced.

Edited July 13, 2012 by GeminiRising79

[treeduck]

QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 13 2012, 06:51 AM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 12 2012, 04:12 PM) Should Peter Collins return to the RUSH production fold next time? All the albums Peter produced with RUSH have great production quality. And he's still got it, the Flying Colors album sounds excellent! Come on now you RUSH fools, have at it! Are you just trying to stir shit up?   Or are you flirting with the 'audio experts'?     This is RUSH's last album and it's perfect. The 'experts' need to decompress their brains and stop grubbing for attention.   No one cares what their basement audio system software says.   We all have these two things called 'ears' and either the music punches your gut and touched your heart via your ears, or .... it doesn't.   No software needed to calibrate my gut and my heart.   ProTools says thanks for buying our software.   I should be exempt from noob attacks by now shouldn't I? I mean I have to put a little bit of effort in otherwise. And I'm too lazy by now...

[DrKlahn]

The music in this album is fantastic. The mix is not. Those of us complaining about it are not attacking the band or their artistry.

 

If you want a chance to hear the album in a better form go listen to the vinyl mix. It's not perfect either, but it's a definite improvement. The vocals are much easier to discern. The instruments aren't nearly as much of a muddy wall of sound. And this isn't because of any superiority of vinyl as a format, it's simply the mix (vinyl can't really be brick walled). A good CD mix would be exquisite.

 

We should all be behind getting a good mix of this album. It will be an improvement for all of us. I think a lot of "the it sounds fine" crowd would be amazed at hearing a level matched comparison of the mixes. I can hear nuances and lyrics in the vinyl mix that are simply impossible to hear on the CD mix. Maybe we'll get a good high resolution 2ch/multi-channel mix on a Blu Ray at some point. I'd pay handsomely for that. If not at least a concert tour Blu Ray should be a good alternative.

 

[Gompers]

QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Jul 13 2012, 12:02 PM)

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) Carnies, probably the best example, is demolished by too much bass. Right at the beginning, Alex gets drown out once Geddy comes in.  Through most of the song, Alex sounds way in the back of the mix. At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Alex gets a properly leveling at about 3:23 then gets lost again at about 3:38. This is just a quick and dirty analysis. I understand what your saying about alex and the pinch harmonic fading a bit. I'll report back to you on that...this will be fun....thanks gompers     That would be the feedback thing he does in the beginning? I guess it would be a guitar squeal.

[Tombstone Mountain]

[Gompers]

[Tombstone Mountain]

[2112rush]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jul 13 2012, 09:47 AM)

wish nick well

that is 'all that you can do'

[softfilter]

I hope they come out with a Clock Work Angels mvi like they did with S&A. Really enjoyed 5.1 surround mix and the advanced stereo resolution was outstanding also.... Of course the audiophiles will say I'm wrong and it sucked!

[vespa2112]

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM)

At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy.

Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms.

Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ?

[drgrendel]

QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 12 2012, 10:57 PM)

Has it ever occurred to anyone that it might not be the fault of the producer or engineer for whatever you feel is wrong with this record? Could it be the band? Nah, no way. What could possibly be wrong with layering 30 guitar tracks per song, with bass, drums, synths, effects and vocals? That's gotta sound great, all those guitar tracks competing for space with all the other single tracked instruments...right? No, not right. The "producer" obviously has a major input on the direction, sound and structure of the songs, but he doesn't have the final say. Ultimately the band determines how much content each song gets, i.e; number of tracks. The "engineer" only records and (sometimes) mixes what the band plays. If Alex wants 30 guitar tracks, the engineer records them, period. They may not use all those tracks, but that's up to the producer, then the band. I guess what I'm saying is, this record is thick with tracks. There is a shit load of sound competing for space. When you have all those layers, things get noisy. I feel this record has so much guitar on it, it covers up everything. This is not necessarily the fault of the producer or engineer. If the band wants all those layers, they get it.

 

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM)

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? ok count me in as one of the people who can't hear wet paper bags but a f*cking rocking tune and one of the heavier tunes rush has done. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[softfilter]

QUOTE (drgrendel @ Jul 13 2012, 01:11 PM)

QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 12 2012, 10:57 PM) Has it ever occurred to anyone that it might not be the fault of the producer or engineer for whatever you feel is wrong with this record? Could it be the band? Nah, no way. What could possibly be wrong with layering 30 guitar tracks per song, with bass, drums, synths, effects and vocals? That's gotta sound great, all those guitar tracks competing for space with all the other single tracked instruments...right? No, not right. The "producer" obviously has a major input on the direction, sound and structure of the songs, but he doesn't have the final say. Ultimately the band determines how much content each song gets, i.e; number of tracks. The "engineer" only records and (sometimes) mixes what the band plays. If Alex wants 30 guitar tracks, the engineer records them, period. They may not use all those tracks, but that's up to the producer, then the band. I guess what I'm saying is, this record is thick with tracks. There is a shit load of sound competing for space. When you have all those layers, things get noisy. I feel this record has so much guitar on it, it covers up everything. This is not necessarily the fault of the producer or engineer. If the band wants all those layers, they get it.   It must be tough recording a orchestra for classical music cd..

[vespa2112]

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jul 13 2012, 01:11 PM)

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? ok count me in as one of the people who can't hear wet paper bags but a f*cking rocking tune and one of the heavier tunes rush has done. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I DOES f*ing rock, it's insane how much I love this whole album. I love every song, and they grow each day on me even more. I can't believe these guys are still making incredible music, rocking this f*ing hard, and they are as old as they are... Its too bad the CD was mastered the way it was and makes it sound so shitty.

[Gompers]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 02:19 PM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jul 13 2012, 01:11 PM) QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? ok count me in as one of the people who can't hear wet paper bags but a f*cking rocking tune and one of the heavier tunes rush has done. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I DOES f*ing rock, it's insane how much I love this whole album. I love every song, and they grow each day on me even more. I can't believe these guys are still making incredible music, rocking this f*ing hard, and they are as old as they are... Its too bad the CD was mastered the way it was and makes it sound so shitty. Thank you!

[canadianice]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM)

QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? Perhaps they will re-record it with you on drums---Give me a friggin break

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:19 PM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jul 13 2012, 01:11 PM) QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? ok count me in as one of the people who can't hear wet paper bags but a f*cking rocking tune and one of the heavier tunes rush has done. pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I DOES f*ing rock, it's insane how much I love this whole album. I love every song, and they grow each day on me even more. I can't believe these guys are still making incredible music, rocking this f*ing hard, and they are as old as they are... Its too bad the CD was mastered the way it was and makes it sound so shitty. maybe rush put way too much trust in these guys. almost like, ok we're done and we'll know you'll make it sound great.

[DrKlahn]

QUOTE (drgrendel @ Jul 13 2012, 01:11 PM)

QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 12 2012, 10:57 PM) Has it ever occurred to anyone that it might not be the fault of the producer or engineer for whatever you feel is wrong with this record? Could it be the band? Nah, no way. What could possibly be wrong with layering 30 guitar tracks per song, with bass, drums, synths, effects and vocals? That's gotta sound great, all those guitar tracks competing for space with all the other single tracked instruments...right? No, not right. The "producer" obviously has a major input on the direction, sound and structure of the songs, but he doesn't have the final say. Ultimately the band determines how much content each song gets, i.e; number of tracks. The "engineer" only records and (sometimes) mixes what the band plays. If Alex wants 30 guitar tracks, the engineer records them, period. They may not use all those tracks, but that's up to the producer, then the band. I guess what I'm saying is, this record is thick with tracks. There is a shit load of sound competing for space. When you have all those layers, things get noisy. I feel this record has so much guitar on it, it covers up everything. This is not necessarily the fault of the producer or engineer. If the band wants all those layers, they get it.   I don't think it is the bands intention. The vinyl mix cleans up a lot of this. This is an engineering problem and it is effecting more than just Rush (just lookup the Loudness Wars). In another thread, someone posted a snippet of an interview with Geddy and I think Billy Corgan where Geddy comments on this very issue. So the band is aware of it, but is at the mercy of what the studio wants to release (they equate loud brick walled recordings with sales I guess).

[ReflectedLight]

if they don't play carnies i will be pissed.

[R.G]

QUOTE (GeminiRising79 @ Jul 13 2012, 04:24 PM)

QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Jul 12 2012, 07:08 PM) wipe the slate clean including nick and his orchestra baton. I think Neil is on some kind of self-induced trip. He almost continuously appears to be searching too hard for "epic" or profound experiences to reflect back onto either verbally or in writing. It almost seems forced. Absolutely this, the number of times Nick is cringe-worthingly described as "bouzje" in written pieces is awkward for one. He's introspecting too much on some fairly normal people/events.   As for the mix, it's a great drumming performance - sadly I literally can't hear what Neil is doing on 75% of the fills.

[treeduck]

The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work?

 

[condemned2bfree]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM)

The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work?

from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes

to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.

 

anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.

 

Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. Yeah my complaints aren't large, it's more a nitpicking thing. It's not a bad sounding album in terms of production, it's just not as clean and organic as I'd like it to be.