Gedneil Alpeart Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 One of the major criticisms of Snakes was the feeling of lyrics being forced to fit a melody. I CA, I still see that a little in places, but overall, much improved than Snakes with better flow and ease. Agree or disagree? For the record, even though Snakes did not age well with me, I still like a bunch of tracks on there. But after hearing CA, it became more obvious to me why Snakes did not age as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losingit2k Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I agree, There a much better flow in CA than in S & A or VT for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYM86 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Edited June 24, 2012 by NYM86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarkus406 Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 I've noticed it's been much better on this release than the previous two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanadoood Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Before being used here, I had never heard of the term. I mentioned it to a few musician friends, and they had no idea what the hell was talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slack jaw gaze Posted June 24, 2012 Share Posted June 24, 2012 Based on the way they write, every song has the lyrics shoehorned in. For the most part, they are pretty good shoehorners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gedneil Alpeart Posted June 25, 2012 Author Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Slack jaw gaze @ Jun 24 2012, 06:57 PM) Based on the way they write, every song has the lyrics shoehorned in. For the most part, they are pretty good shoehorners. But it's not so obvious in CA... Edited June 25, 2012 by Gedneil Alpeart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCFIELDS Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (Gedneil Alpeart @ Jun 24 2012, 06:33 PM) QUOTE (Slack jaw gaze @ Jun 24 2012, 06:57 PM) Based on the way they write, every song has the lyrics shoehorned in. For the most part, they are pretty good shoehorners. Byut it's not so obvious in CA... agree with that.....S&A was much worse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. Edited June 25, 2012 by trenken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finding IT Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:42 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. As I understand it, nearly all of Rush's songs in recent years begin with the lyric. If that is the case, it is the melodist's responsibility to ensure that the melody matches the lyric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:46 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:42 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. As I understand it, nearly all of Rush's songs in recent years begin with the lyric. If that is the case, it is the melodist's responsibility to ensure that the melody matches the lyric. They dont write that way. Geddy and Alex work on music on their own, Neil sends them lyrics and it's Geddy's job to find a way for them to fit, which is really an unusual way of writing songs. Usually the singer writes the lyrics so its very easy for them to fit the words to the music, but Geddy has to go back and forth with Neil and sometimes it does sound a little awkward. There's plenty of examples but dont feel like finding them right now. Melody and lyrics are 2 totally different things. You can have good melody just doing ohhh's and ahhh's. Melody is also in the instruments and the chord progression. Shoehorning is just trying to fit not enough or too many lyrics to a certain pieces of music where it ends up just sounding awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finding IT Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:50 PM) QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:46 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:42 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. As I understand it, nearly all of Rush's songs in recent years begin with the lyric. If that is the case, it is the melodist's responsibility to ensure that the melody matches the lyric. They dont write that way. Geddy and Alex work on music on their own, Neil sends them lyrics and it's Geddy's job to find a way for them to fit, which is really an unusual way of writing songs. Usually the singer writes the lyrics so its very easy for them to fit the words to the music, but Geddy has to go back and forth with Neil and sometimes it does sound a little awkward. There's plenty of examples but dont feel like finding them right now. Melody and lyrics are 2 totally different things. You can have good melody just doing ohhh's and ahhh's. Melody is also in the instruments and the chord progression. Shoehorning is just trying to fit not enough or too many lyrics to a certain pieces of music where it ends up just sounding awkward. First, this is not as I understand it. I've read interviews with both that state that Neil sends Geddy lyrics which approximate completed songs and Ged uses what he wants. Neil has a well known line that states, "Many are sent, few are chosen." Second, I have written professionally and also teach writing and have been a musician for 40 years. Don't presume to tell me how to write lyrics or melodies. Your arrogance has become a palpable thing on this Board and we could do with a little less of your hubris. Edited June 25, 2012 by Finding IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:56 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:50 PM) QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:46 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:42 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. As I understand it, nearly all of Rush's songs in recent years begin with the lyric. If that is the case, it is the melodist's responsibility to ensure that the melody matches the lyric. They dont write that way. Geddy and Alex work on music on their own, Neil sends them lyrics and it's Geddy's job to find a way for them to fit, which is really an unusual way of writing songs. Usually the singer writes the lyrics so its very easy for them to fit the words to the music, but Geddy has to go back and forth with Neil and sometimes it does sound a little awkward. There's plenty of examples but dont feel like finding them right now. Melody and lyrics are 2 totally different things. You can have good melody just doing ohhh's and ahhh's. Melody is also in the instruments and the chord progression. Shoehorning is just trying to fit not enough or too many lyrics to a certain pieces of music where it ends up just sounding awkward. First, this is not as I understand it. I've read interviews with both that state that Neil sends Geddy lyrics which approximate completed songs and Ged uses what he wants. Neil has a well known line that states, "Many are sent, few are chosen." Second, I have written professionally and also teach writing and have been a musician for 40 years. Don't presume to tell me how to write lyrics or melodies. Your arrogance has become a palpable thing on this Board and we could do with a little less of your hubris. Can you tell me a lot of artists who write songs with lyrics first? Rush does NOT write that way, and most dont. 40 years as a songwriter and you still think it makes sense to write vocal melodies before the music??? It's common knowledge Geddy and Alex write music through jam sessions entirely separate from anything Neil is doing. That's how they've always written and that hasn't changed. After they write their parts is when Geddy takes what Neil sent and tries to make it work. That's what most bands do. The music comes first, then the lyrics and vocal melodies. The music might change after that just to make things sound better, but I know and many here know they write the music first. Geddy and Alex have talked about that many times over decades and it hasnt changed at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finding IT Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 08:13 PM) QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:56 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:50 PM) QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:46 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:42 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. As I understand it, nearly all of Rush's songs in recent years begin with the lyric. If that is the case, it is the melodist's responsibility to ensure that the melody matches the lyric. They dont write that way. Geddy and Alex work on music on their own, Neil sends them lyrics and it's Geddy's job to find a way for them to fit, which is really an unusual way of writing songs. Usually the singer writes the lyrics so its very easy for them to fit the words to the music, but Geddy has to go back and forth with Neil and sometimes it does sound a little awkward. There's plenty of examples but dont feel like finding them right now. Melody and lyrics are 2 totally different things. You can have good melody just doing ohhh's and ahhh's. Melody is also in the instruments and the chord progression. Shoehorning is just trying to fit not enough or too many lyrics to a certain pieces of music where it ends up just sounding awkward. First, this is not as I understand it. I've read interviews with both that state that Neil sends Geddy lyrics which approximate completed songs and Ged uses what he wants. Neil has a well known line that states, "Many are sent, few are chosen." Second, I have written professionally and also teach writing and have been a musician for 40 years. Don't presume to tell me how to write lyrics or melodies. Your arrogance has become a palpable thing on this Board and we could do with a little less of your hubris. Can you tell me a lot of artists who write songs with lyrics first? Rush does NOT write that way, and most dont. 40 years as a songwriter and you still think it makes sense to write vocal melodies before the music??? It's common knowledge Geddy and Alex write music through jam sessions entirely separate from anything Neil is doing. That's how they've always written and that hasn't changed. After they write their parts is when Geddy takes what Neil sent and tries to make it work. That's what most bands do. The music comes first, then the lyrics and vocal melodies. The music might change after that just to make things sound better, but I know and many here know they write the music first. Geddy and Alex have talked about that many times over decades and it hasnt changed at all. No, it makes sense to have the lyrics first so you have things like rhythm, meter, tone, theme, etc, in place before you write a melody because those elements have a profound effect on the melody you write. What comes first, the libretto or the opera? What comes first, the text of the Mass or the Reqium? Ultimately, however, the music is always the last thing written because it MUST be completed before the performance. Since Ged is both the vocalist AND the songwriter, he has the final responsibity for the end product. Edited June 25, 2012 by Finding IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYM86 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Stuff like "A voice so silent for so lo-ong" and "Change the color of riii-iii-iiight" isn't shoehorning, it's melismatic singing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finding IT Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 08:24 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 08:13 PM) QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:56 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:50 PM) QUOTE (Finding IT @ Jun 24 2012, 07:46 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 07:42 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Singers and songwriters can easily notice it. You can always tell when words are awkwardly given more syllables or stretched out for longer than what would normally feel right. He did this a lot on S&A because I guess maybe he didnt want to keep beating Neil up to change things. You can hear an example of shoehorning in Anarchist. "A voice so silent for so loooo ooohh ooonnnngggg." Sounds a little weird. If that line had 2 more syllables in it it would sound a little better. It's not terrible the way it is now and there's definitely much worse examples, but it's an example of a singer not writing his own lyrics and having to fit this stuff into music he wrote. As I understand it, nearly all of Rush's songs in recent years begin with the lyric. If that is the case, it is the melodist's responsibility to ensure that the melody matches the lyric. They dont write that way. Geddy and Alex work on music on their own, Neil sends them lyrics and it's Geddy's job to find a way for them to fit, which is really an unusual way of writing songs. Usually the singer writes the lyrics so its very easy for them to fit the words to the music, but Geddy has to go back and forth with Neil and sometimes it does sound a little awkward. There's plenty of examples but dont feel like finding them right now. Melody and lyrics are 2 totally different things. You can have good melody just doing ohhh's and ahhh's. Melody is also in the instruments and the chord progression. Shoehorning is just trying to fit not enough or too many lyrics to a certain pieces of music where it ends up just sounding awkward. First, this is not as I understand it. I've read interviews with both that state that Neil sends Geddy lyrics which approximate completed songs and Ged uses what he wants. Neil has a well known line that states, "Many are sent, few are chosen." Second, I have written professionally and also teach writing and have been a musician for 40 years. Don't presume to tell me how to write lyrics or melodies. Your arrogance has become a palpable thing on this Board and we could do with a little less of your hubris. Can you tell me a lot of artists who write songs with lyrics first? Rush does NOT write that way, and most dont. 40 years as a songwriter and you still think it makes sense to write vocal melodies before the music??? It's common knowledge Geddy and Alex write music through jam sessions entirely separate from anything Neil is doing. That's how they've always written and that hasn't changed. After they write their parts is when Geddy takes what Neil sent and tries to make it work. That's what most bands do. The music comes first, then the lyrics and vocal melodies. The music might change after that just to make things sound better, but I know and many here know they write the music first. Geddy and Alex have talked about that many times over decades and it hasnt changed at all. No, it makes sense to have the lyrics so you have things like rhythm, meter, tone, theme, etc, in place before you write a melody because those elements have a profound effect on the melody you write. What comes first, the libretto or the opera? What comes first, the text of the Mass or the Reqium? Ultimately, however, the music is always the last thing written because it MUST be completed before the performance. Since Ged is both the vocalist AND the songwriter, he has the final responsility for the end product. And incidently, you may want to read Peart's essay, "A Game of Snakes and Arrows" where he talks about how Rush songs are created: "It is always a thrill to hear my words sung for the first time, when those dry, printed lines I've labored over finally become charged with life. Plus, there's a sense of affirmation in knowing that Geddy found those words worth singing (many are sent; few are chosen)." http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/rush/images...-every-time.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merely Space Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jun 24 2012, 10:03 AM) Well I know shoehorning is a fashionable term around these parts, but I've frankly never really noticed it in any of their songs. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 (edited) I have no idea what you're talking about. Most Rush fans that follow everything they say knows Geddy and Alex get together and jam. Out of those jams they put songs together. Then Geddy takes lyrics Neil sends him and works on the vocal melodies. If lines dont work right, he has Neil change them. In all my years of writing songs and talking to people that write songs I dont think ive never met a single one that said they write lyrics or vocal melodies first, and I know for a fact that Geddy and Alex dont write that way. It wont be hard for me to find many interviews with them talking about this, and its not different from how most bands write. The only thing different about them is that the vocalist doesnt write the lyrics, so he has to go through an extra step of consulting with the lyricist when he needs changes made. Edited June 25, 2012 by trenken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finding IT Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 QUOTE (trenken @ Jun 24 2012, 08:45 PM) I have no idea what you're talking about. Most Rush fans that follow everything they say knows Geddy and Alex get together and jam. Out of those jams they put songs together. Then Geddy takes lyrics Neil sends him and works on the vocal melodies. If lines dont work right, he has Neil change them. In all my years of writing songs and talking to people that write songs I dont think ive never met a single one that said they write lyrics or vocal melodies first, and I know for a fact that Geddy and Alex dont write that way. It wont be hard for me to find many interviews with them talking about this, and its not different from how most bands write. The only thing different about them is that the vocalist doesnt write the lyrics, so he has to go through an extra step of consulting with the lyricist when he needs changes made. Paul Simon has stated that he writes lyrics first ... poems that become songs. Irving Berlin - widely considered one of the greatest writers of melodies of the 20th century - always began with lyrics. I heard Stephen Sondheim say on Masterworks that he writes nearly the entire book before he thinks about melodies. Closer to home, I have a good friend in NYC who writes and produces for folks like Joe Bonamassa, ZO2, Alice Cooper, Joe Lynn Turner, Michael Schenker, etc. who begins his songs with lyrics. He has writing credits on over 70 recorded songs. There are certainly people who begin the other way. However, I don't think it works well to begin with a melody if the lyricist and melodist are separate folks. it seems foolish and short-sighted to write a melody designed to evoke a mood or an image and not know what that mood or image is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finding IT Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbertk Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Honestly, a lot of people complain about this but I first got into Rush before I even knew what a forum was and before I knew how to talk with other fans, so I just listened, and I never had any problem with the lyrics. Then I got on here and people complain left and right. Have any of you watched Beyond the Lighted Stage? Geddy was having to try hard to fit Neil's lyrics back on at least Beneath, Between, and Behind. He doesn't write lyrics, he writes poetry which then has to be fit into music. Something that doesn't sound natural to you isn't "shoehorned". You can't say how they wrote it. It's just not what you would have done. Goodness some people will complain about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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