savagegrace26 Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Also is "heavy metal" and "metal" still the same thing? I think they are interchangeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) ^ And this is the root of our disagreement. I see heavy metal as a subset within "Metal," just as prog metal and doom metal and thrash metal, etc. are subsets of "Metal." As I've stated before, I see bands like Sabbath, Motorhead, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, etc as Heavy Metal, because growing up through the '70s that's how everyone I knew that was into hard or heavy rock saw it. Hard rock, blues rock, etc. no matter how loud was not Heavy Metal. When someone said, "He's a Metalhead," everyone knew what that meant, and it didn't mean they liked Rush. Like punk, heavy metal was defined as much by a look and an attitude as a sound, and Rush did not share the look and the attitude of those bands I names, and so they were not heavy metal. You can think what you want but I lived through the '70s conscious of how music was categorized then, and since Rush's "prog metal" phase was in the '70s (again, I think they're really progressive hard rock, but whatever), my experience has some relevance. You, on the other hand, keep pulling out charts and krahp written by other 20 or 30 something year olds out of Wikipeida and blogs. Again, as there's no official standard guarded by Le Academe du Metal Hurlant, I stick with my experience over your graphs. Edited September 1, 2014 by Rutlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treeduck Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 They're metal and you better believe it! :haz: :haz: :haz: :haz: :haz: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Also, it shows punk as an influence on certain genres of metal and not as an actual subset of the genre. If you actually looked at the connections between different genres you would see that it doesn't show any heavy metal influence on punk, and hence does not call punk "metal". However, it does include Progressive Metal as a descendent of "early metal", and hence as a subset of the heavy metal genre. But the chart's f-d up. Hendrix and Zeppelin are "Early Metal"? That's a pretty broad net. And if so broad, where's The Who, for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 (edited) Also, it shows punk as an influence on certain genres of metal and not as an actual subset of the genre. If you actually looked at the connections between different genres you would see that it doesn't show any heavy metal influence on punk, and hence does not call punk "metal". However, it does include Progressive Metal as a descendent of "early metal", and hence as a subset of the heavy metal genre. As I see it shows punk leading to grunge, but neither one coming from or leading to the other categories, which again makes me wonder what the overarching theme of the chart is. What does The Clash have to do with any form of Metal? Absolutely nothing. Edited September 1, 2014 by Rutlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 They're metal and you better believe it! :haz: :haz: :haz: :haz: :haz: I'll admit there's different opinions, more so that I would have expected (I thought the "they're not heavy metal" would be a slam dunk). I will admit that I could easily see an arena of metalheads doing the Hook 'Em Horns thing to the Overture to 2112. More difficult seeing them getting into Lakeside Park or Closer to the Heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugen Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 That is not the first time this question has been asked here, but it's still don't make unanimity. No Rush are not "mental", and never were, maybe a little mad at times during Vapor Trails, Worst for Echo and a bit lost on Throw the Bones, but i can't see them on the same side as many metal bands, the music is not as speedy or gloomy, trashy or whatever, and their attitude is quiet different. Their influences are more in the world of hard rock, alternative grunge, blues etc. But it's half way from the truth, because their sound is Heavy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 ^ :goodone: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagegrace26 Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 (edited) ^ And this is the root of our disagreement. I see heavy metal as a subset within "Metal," just as prog metal and doom metal and thrash metal, etc. are subsets of "Metal." As I've stated before, I see bands like Sabbath, Motorhead, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, etc as Heavy Metal, because growing up through the '70s that's how everyone I knew that was into hard or heavy rock saw it. Hard rock, blues rock, etc. no matter how loud was not Heavy Metal. When someone said, "He's a Metalhead," everyone knew what that meant, and it didn't mean they liked Rush. Like punk, heavy metal was defined as much by a look and an attitude as a sound, and Rush did not share the look and the attitude of those bands I names, and so they were not heavy metal. You can think what you want but I lived through the '70s conscious of how music was categorized then, and since Rush's "prog metal" phase was in the '70s (again, I think they're really progressive hard rock, but whatever), my experience has some relevance. You, on the other hand, keep pulling out charts and krahp written by other 20 or 30 something year olds out of Wikipeida and blogs. Again, as there's no official standard guarded by Le Academe du Metal Hurlant, I stick with my experience over your graphs. You seem like you take this categorizing thing too seriously. Regardless, music is usually better classified retroactively as a little historical perspective helps with objectivity and how music has evolved over the years. It makes absolutely no difference whether you lived through it or not. Also, it shows punk as an influence on certain genres of metal and not as an actual subset of the genre. If you actually looked at the connections between different genres you would see that it doesn't show any heavy metal influence on punk, and hence does not call punk "metal". However, it does include Progressive Metal as a descendent of "early metal", and hence as a subset of the heavy metal genre. It may be part of a larger chart that includes genres of music and that punk part may just have happened to be in the image. Edited September 5, 2014 by savagegrace26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagegrace26 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Also, it shows punk as an influence on certain genres of metal and not as an actual subset of the genre. If you actually looked at the connections between different genres you would see that it doesn't show any heavy metal influence on punk, and hence does not call punk "metal". However, it does include Progressive Metal as a descendent of "early metal", and hence as a subset of the heavy metal genre. But the chart's f-d up. Hendrix and Zeppelin are "Early Metal"? That's a pretty broad net. And if so broad, where's The Who, for example? As I've already stated, I posted the chart to illustrate how subgenres exist and branch out within the main genre. I don't necessarily agree with how the bands are categorized and if they belong within those particular categories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JARG Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Has it been decided yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len(songs) Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Has it been decided yet?Sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 If metal is an attitude, they surely are metal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JARG Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 You think Rush is heavy metal, which shows that you have no idea what is heavy metal. You were minus 5 years old when Black Sabbath was defining the genre, so what do you know. I once said to a historian, "you weren't even alive during the American Revolution, so what do you know". He thought that was pretty funny for some reason. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMCXII Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Has it been decided yet? Ya ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMCXII Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 Some of this thread is hilarious.. People are so tied to their own opinions and state them as absolute fact! Rush music is pretty diverse. How can you possibly put them in a box? Why would you want to?? "They're metal! Just listen to By-Tor!"They're not metal! just listen to The Pass""They're folk! Just listen to Rivendell! (Ok don't listen to Rivendell lol)" I'd say the only genre that is pretty much consistent through their music is Prog. Beyond that you can find everything from metal to reggae to rap in their music.. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 nope. they're just a rock band to me 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narps Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 nope. they're just a rock band to meThere is it from the man who knows.... :) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I will paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's famous quote about pornography, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["Heavy Metal"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the band involved in this case ["Rush"] is not that." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
len(songs) Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 The answer is: sometimes. Any further attempt to clarify will result in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narps Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 (edited) I will paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's famous quote about pornography, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["Heavy Metal"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the band involved in this case ["Rush"] is not that."Hey!! I got called a perv for quoting that once..... Nice post btw :cheers: Edited September 5, 2014 by Narpski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagegrace26 Posted September 5, 2014 Share Posted September 5, 2014 I will paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's famous quote about pornography, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["Heavy Metal"]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the band involved in this case ["Rush"] is not that."Hey!! I got called a perv for quoting that once..... Nice post btw :cheers: You can't see heavy metal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Yes you can, it looks like ... (insert picture of Ozzy Osbourne biting the head off a bird, or, Rob Halford in black leather biker porno pants, or, Iron Maiden being Iron Maiden). If you can't picture those things, and judging from your posts I suspect you can't, then pretend the quote said "hear" instead of "see." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagegrace26 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Yes you can, it looks like ... (insert picture of Ozzy Osbourne biting the head off a bird, or, Rob Halford in black leather biker porno pants, or, Iron Maiden being Iron Maiden). If you can't picture those things, and judging from your posts I suspect you can't, then pretend the quote said "hear" instead of "see." This is how I "see" Heavy Metal http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/280997493960_1_0_1/1000x1000.jpg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutlefan Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Pretty cool actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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