HowItIs Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 In asserting that man is the ultimate being in the Cosmos, the Objectivists refute the Greek philosophical idea of a Prime Mover. This leads me to believe that the song Prime Mover is a statement from Neil repudiating his former Randian beliefs. In his younger days, influenced by Rand's Anthem and Atlas Shrugged, he had apparently embraced most of the Objectivist Philosophy. But you can see the evolution of his thoughts beginning with Permanent Waves (Freewill, Natural Science, Entre Nous) and culminating in the song, Prime Mover. The repetition of the phrase, "anything can happen" seems to indicate his encompassing other philosophies (Heidegger? Descartes?). "The point of the journey is not to arrive," sounds somewhat Kierkegaardian. But the last verse... I set the wheels in motion turn up all the machines activate the programs and run behind the scenes I set the clouds in motion turn up light and sound activate the window and watch the world go 'round- ... while not a strict acceptance of a deity, voices the idea that there may possibly be one. A Prime Mover. Completely the opposite of the Randian idea that man is the only prime mover and is the end in and of himself. Hence, a repudiation of his earlier beliefs. Just some late night/early morning musing.... what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babycat Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 I can't explain it, but those lyrics sure are beautiful..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnowdog Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddyRulz Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 I think you nailed it. Those lyrics you quoted are italicized in the liner notes. We can imagine them being delivered by "God," i.e. the Prime Mover. Looking at the content of what He's saying, He created the world but now takes a backseat in its affairs. Set the world in motion, then ran behind the scene and watches it go. I think this song, and "Mystic Rhythms," too, illustrates a Deist philosophy. A belief in a higher power, but not one with direct control over our lives, and not a strictly Christian God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vital signz Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Aug 13 2011, 07:58 AM) I think you nailed it. Those lyrics you quoted are italicized in the liner notes. We can imagine them being delivered by "God," i.e. the Prime Mover. Looking at the content of what He's saying, He created the world but now takes a backseat in its affairs. Set the world in motion, then ran behind the scene and watches it go. I think this song, and "Mystic Rhythms," too, illustrates a Deist philosophy. A belief in a higher power, but not one with direct control over our lives, and not a strictly Christian God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Long rant here. I don't think it's very hard to figure out. Neil is indifferent about the subject. He is a realist, he only believes what his eyes can see, doesn't believe in magic, etc... He recognizes there may be a god, but if it doesn't present itself, he chooses not to worship it. He's not an atheist in that he won't say there isn't one, otherwise he would never mention that there might be one, but he just simply doesn't know. In many songs he mentions there could be one. "To a god, a king or head of state". His main issues seem to be why some good people suffer if there was a god with any sort of control over the real world, he touches on this in many songs. Roll The Bones for example. And just the concept of organized religion. He doesn't believe in fate or destiny, but more that things happen without reason, circumstances. If you ever said the line to him, "It was meant to be", he would probably roll his eyes. It sure seems he will spend the rest of his days unsure if there is a god or not, but if there is one, he doesn't believe it's aware of us, that maybe all the planets and stars are just microscopic things within one of many giant cosmic cows, similar in a way to how our cells are not aware of us, and we are not aware of all of them. He also gets into this in Natural Science as well. Tidal pools are the only Universe to the tiny creatures that live in it. They live out their little meaningless lives and then simple cease to exist, which I really believe is how he looks at humans. We aren't really anything at all. We are weak creatures who will die and that's it, your time is up and won't mean anything at all. The singer from the band Live used to write about this a lot, except personally I feel that he writes about it in more of a personal way, less technical and cyborg-like how Neil writes, which is why feel that 3 of their albums have many lyrics I like more than anything Neil ever wrote. This is of their songs that talks about all this same stuff Neil constantly writes about, but a more positive vibe about it. Very spiritual along with the music, love this song so much. Very different than Rush, but as good in a different way. THE DISTANCE let him come into the city let him find his lucky penny let him put it in his pocket and shake it all around I've been to pretty buildings, all in search of you I have lit all the candles, sat in all the pews the desert had been done before, but I didn't even care I got sand in both my shoes and scorpions in my hair I saw that... oh the distance is not do-able in these bodies of clay my brother oh the distance, it makes me uncomfortable guess it's natural to feel this way oh, let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly my car became the church and I the worshipper of silence there in a moment peace came over me and the one who was beatin' my heart appeared and.... oh the distance is not do-able in these bodies of clay my brother oh the distance, it makes me uncomfortable guess it's natural to feel this way oh, are we locked into these bodies? let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly oh, are we locked into these bodies? are we anything at all? let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly this distance is dreamin' we're already there tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstantial tree Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 it's a rock song that needed lyrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New World Kid Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Aug 13 2011, 09:38 AM) it's a rock song that needed lyrics. This is a post that needs words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FountainOfSyrinx Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Isn't a Prime Mover also some sort of machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonictheplumber Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 damn dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted August 13, 2011 Author Share Posted August 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 02:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, he hasn't. He has shown disgust towards organized religion. He has said that believers sometimes bug him. He has said that religious fanatics scare him. He has said that he is not a believer in organized religion and an agnostic as far as the existence of a god. But, despite the claims of believers that he hates them, thinks they are insane, etc. which are very much exaggerated, he doesn't ever call them "loonies." He may have called extremists "loony" but unless you are an extremest, he isn't talking about you. There are some great responses here (esp. trenken!)! I'm happy to see a discussion about it Edited August 13, 2011 by HowItIs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbirdsong Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 There is a difference between spirituality and religion. I think it is the latter that NP has a problem with. I've been to churches full of sheep who worship their pastor and believe anything he tells them. I've been to others where they sat on the fence and didn't believe in much of anything. For me religion is about a relationship with God. I get the feeling that NP is not very interested in that at this time of his life and maybe he never will be. It is fascinating to see him exploring these ideas in his lyrics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 13 2011, 10:21 PM) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 02:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, he hasn't. He has shown disgust towards organized religion. He has said that believers sometimes bug him. He has said that religious fanatics scare him. He has said that he is not a believer in organized religion and an agnostic as far as the existence of a god. But, despite the claims of believers that he hates them, thinks they are insane, etc. which are very much exaggerated, he doesn't ever call them "loonies." He may have called extremists "loony" but unless you are an extremest, he isn't talking about you. There are some great responses here (esp. trenken!)! I'm happy to see a discussion about it After going through the old threads I found the one I had read and also a link to Neil's blogs. If you go to the one dated June 2011 and read down he does mention the "Rapture failure" and he refers to the people who made that prophesy as loonies. Please read it and see for yourself. I realise now that I should have read that part of the blog for myself as I have taken his meaning out of context. To be honest I'm quite relieved as my heart was in my mouth when I read that thread! You are right. I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancient Ways Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Good thread. I think he has continued moving in a different direction towards the loonies on the opposite side like Dawkins who is just as narrow minded and proseltyzing as a lot of the "loonies." The thing with Neil is he is very restless and his opinions and beliefs will continue to evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowItIs Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 03:20 PM) QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 13 2011, 10:21 PM) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 02:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, he hasn't. He has shown disgust towards organized religion. He has said that believers sometimes bug him. He has said that religious fanatics scare him. He has said that he is not a believer in organized religion and an agnostic as far as the existence of a god. But, despite the claims of believers that he hates them, thinks they are insane, etc. which are very much exaggerated, he doesn't ever call them "loonies." He may have called extremists "loony" but unless you are an extremest, he isn't talking about you. There are some great responses here (esp. trenken!)! I'm happy to see a discussion about it After going through the old threads I found the one I had read and also a link to Neil's blogs. If you go to the one dated June 2011 and read down he does mention the "Rapture failure" and he refers to the people who made that prophesy as loonies. Please read it and see for yourself. I realise now that I should have read that part of the blog for myself as I have taken his meaning out of context. To be honest I'm quite relieved as my heart was in my mouth when I read that thread! You are right. I apologise. No need but thank you. FWIW, I think those folks are loonies, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 13 2011, 03:30 PM) Long rant here. I don't think it's very hard to figure out. Neil is indifferent about the subject. He is a realist, he only believes what his eyes can see, doesn't believe in magic, etc... He recognizes there may be a god, but if it doesn't present itself, he chooses not to worship it. He's not an atheist in that he won't say there isn't one, otherwise he would never mention that there might be one, but he just simply doesn't know. In many songs he mentions there could be one. "To a god, a king or head of state". His main issues seem to be why some good people suffer if there was a god with any sort of control over the real world, he touches on this in many songs. Roll The Bones for example. And just the concept of organized religion. He doesn't believe in fate or destiny, but more that things happen without reason, circumstances. If you ever said the line to him, "It was meant to be", he would probably roll his eyes. It sure seems he will spend the rest of his days unsure if there is a god or not, but if there is one, he doesn't believe it's aware of us, that maybe all the planets and stars are just microscopic things within one of many giant cosmic cows, similar in a way to how our cells are not aware of us, and we are not aware of all of them. He also gets into this in Natural Science as well. Tidal pools are the only Universe to the tiny creatures that live in it. They live out their little meaningless lives and then simple cease to exist, which I really believe is how he looks at humans. We aren't really anything at all. We are weak creatures who will die and that's it, your time is up and won't mean anything at all. The singer from the band Live used to write about this a lot, except personally I feel that he writes about it in more of a personal way, less technical and cyborg-like how Neil writes, which is why feel that 3 of their albums have many lyrics I like more than anything Neil ever wrote. This is of their songs that talks about all this same stuff Neil constantly writes about, but a more positive vibe about it. Very spiritual along with the music, love this song so much. Very different than Rush, but as good in a different way. THE DISTANCE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrPDwLJR_NE let him come into the city let him find his lucky penny let him put it in his pocket and shake it all around I've been to pretty buildings, all in search of you I have lit all the candles, sat in all the pews the desert had been done before, but I didn't even care I got sand in both my shoes and scorpions in my hair I saw that... oh the distance is not do-able in these bodies of clay my brother oh the distance, it makes me uncomfortable guess it's natural to feel this way oh, let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly my car became the church and I the worshipper of silence there in a moment peace came over me and the one who was beatin' my heart appeared and.... oh the distance is not do-able in these bodies of clay my brother oh the distance, it makes me uncomfortable guess it's natural to feel this way oh, are we locked into these bodies? let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly oh, are we locked into these bodies? are we anything at all? let's hold out for somethin' sweeter spread your wings and fly this distance is dreamin' we're already there tonight He touches on that in Totem too. What is that song about excactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 04:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, I'm pretty sure he meant fanatical people of faith. Armor & Sword gets into this. I dont think he really has a problem with all people of faith, he does think it can be used for good, something for people to believe in which is fine, just the ones that use it aggressively, or kill in the name of god, or try to push it on others, or even those scumbags that try to make money off of it. When he called them loonies I just dont think he remember to mention who he was specifically talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 14 2011, 10:32 AM) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 04:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, I'm pretty sure he meant fanatical people of faith. Armor & Sword gets into this. I dont think he really has a problem with all people of faith, he does think it can be used for good, something for people to believe in which is fine, just the ones that use it aggressively, or kill in the name of god, or try to push it on others, or even those scumbags that try to make money off of it. When he called them loonies I just dont think he remember to mention who he was specifically talking about. I think Totem is about popular beliefs and religion, how aspects of it are used as tools by the media to make profit in various ways. Money, self reassurance, etc.. There are so many differnt cultures, religions, and people whom all see the world different ways. You should believe in what you see, hear, and feel but make sure it is how YOU really feel and know not everyone will agree with you and see it the same way. Again, something he has touched on many times, just taken from a different perspective. He's trying to send a message to people who are different than him, trying to make them understand that we aren't all the same, but if I don't believe in the same thing you do, that doesn't make me a bad person. He seems to want people to be more open minded. And he definitely believes that as long as he loves a good moral life, loving those around you, helping people, that should be good enough, and it is for him. He doesn't need god in his life and he uses Rush songs as a way to explain that it doesn't make him a bad person. He is obviously well aware that many people of faith do not like what he writes, so it's almost like he's trying to find a middle ground with them, so in a way this song is actually positive. He always has little lines where he does seem to want to relate with people that are different than him. "I thought we might get closer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstantial tree Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 I just wonder what some folks mean when they say "fanatical". To me, it's someone like Piper Laurie's character in "Carrie". (Carrie's mother) But if someone is spiritual or religious (no matter what their beliefs are) a lot of the time (i.e. reading the Bible at lunch time, praying a lot, practicing their beliefs most of the time on a daily basis) they shouldn't be criticized for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (circumstantial tree @ Aug 14 2011, 10:50 AM) I just wonder what some folks mean when they say "fanatical". To me, it's someone like Piper Laurie's character in "Carrie". (Carrie's mother) But if someone is spiritual or religious (no matter what their beliefs are) a lot of the time (i.e. reading the Bible at lunch time, praying a lot, practicing their beliefs most of the time on a daily basis) they shouldn't be criticized for it. Ever have someone knock on your door trying to sell religion to you? Or see some terrorists fly a plane into a building, while praising god in their final words believing it's what he wanted them to do? Or tell someone that you don't believe in god and can sense them feeling sorry for you as if you are lost, even arguing with you about it? TV evangelists? All that. Armor & Sword is really all you need to read to understand how views religion. He believes it can be something very positive for people, but can also be used in more aggressive ways which he has a serious problem with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
circumstantial tree Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 14 2011, 11:55 AM) Armor & Sword is really all you need to read to understand how views religion. He believes it can be something very positive for people, but can also be used in more aggressive ways which he has a serious problem with. QUOTE Ever have someone knock on your door trying to sell religion to you? Yeah. Their timing is usually atrocious, but overall it doesn't bother me. If they are of the same faith as me I may engage in conversation. If it's a different faith or denomination, I explain why I'm not interested, then they go away. If they force the issue then that is a different story. QUOTE Or see some terrorists fly a plane into a building, while praising Allah in their final words believing it's what he wanted them to do? Yeah, who hasn't? QUOTE Or tell someone that you don't believe in god and can sense them feeling sorry for you as if you are lost, even arguing with you about it? I don't sense anything unless they say something to that effect. In which case that IS arguing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobner has assumed control Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 05:20 PM) QUOTE (HowItIs @ Aug 13 2011, 10:21 PM) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 02:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, he hasn't. He has shown disgust towards organized religion. He has said that believers sometimes bug him. He has said that religious fanatics scare him. He has said that he is not a believer in organized religion and an agnostic as far as the existence of a god. But, despite the claims of believers that he hates them, thinks they are insane, etc. which are very much exaggerated, he doesn't ever call them "loonies." He may have called extremists "loony" but unless you are an extremest, he isn't talking about you. There are some great responses here (esp. trenken!)! I'm happy to see a discussion about it After going through the old threads I found the one I had read and also a link to Neil's blogs. If you go to the one dated June 2011 and read down he does mention the "Rapture failure" and he refers to the people who made that prophesy as loonies. Please read it and see for yourself. I realise now that I should have read that part of the blog for myself as I have taken his meaning out of context. To be honest I'm quite relieved as my heart was in my mouth when I read that thread! You are right. I apologise. I'm pretty sure most people thought that the people who were forecasting "the rapture" were complete loonies. I know I did, and 12/21/12 is going to be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobner has assumed control Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 14 2011, 10:48 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Aug 14 2011, 10:32 AM) QUOTE (LyndseyG @ Aug 13 2011, 04:09 PM) Hang on though. Neil has called people who believe in God "loonies". If he isn't sure that God exists, how can he have a go at those who believe in Him? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick? BTW: Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Neil. I respect him. I just don't understand. No, I'm pretty sure he meant fanatical people of faith. Armor & Sword gets into this. I dont think he really has a problem with all people of faith, he does think it can be used for good, something for people to believe in which is fine, just the ones that use it aggressively, or kill in the name of god, or try to push it on others, or even those scumbags that try to make money off of it. When he called them loonies I just dont think he remember to mention who he was specifically talking about. I think Totem is about popular beliefs and religion, how aspects of it are used as tools by the media to make profit in various ways. Money, self reassurance, etc.. There are so many differnt cultures, religions, and people whom all see the world different ways. You should believe in what you see, hear, and feel but make sure it is how YOU really feel and know not everyone will agree with you and see it the same way. Again, something he has touched on many times, just taken from a different perspective. He's trying to send a message to people who are different than him, trying to make them understand that we aren't all the same, but if I don't believe in the same thing you do, that doesn't make me a bad person. He seems to want people to be more open minded. And he definitely believes that as long as he loves a good moral life, loving those around you, helping people, that should be good enough, and it is for him. He doesn't need god in his life and he uses Rush songs as a way to explain that it doesn't make him a bad person. He is obviously well aware that many people of faith do not like what he writes, so it's almost like he's trying to find a middle ground with them, so in a way this song is actually positive. He always has little lines where he does seem to want to relate with people that are different than him. "I thought we might get closer". I agree with you, a lot of people seem to think his lyrics are directed at people of faith in a negative way, like he is trying to make them out to be fools, but that really isn't the case. He favors individualism and the idea that people should open their minds and explore different things rather than be confined within certain ideals or structures. As was said before, he doesn't like people who try to impose their religion onto people who don't want to share their beliefs, he doesn't like those who manipulate people through religion, and those aspects can be found in many of the formal religions. (I'm not bashing religion by the way) I think Neil has a quote in BTLS where he says something like, "I am a reflection of everyone and everyone is a reflection of me." Not sure if I quoted that completely correct, but anyway, I am just saying that he isn't in opposition with people of faith, he just uses his lyrics as a way to get people to think that there could be more out there to explore. Sorry for the long post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LyndseyG Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Yeah, we have all seen how blind faith, religious fanaticism and extremism are dangerous. Thanks guys for setting me straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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