Should the Joker DIE???

[Necromancer]

Okay, so every hero has his nemesis. Supes has Lex, Flash has Prof. Zoom, Spidey has The Goblin. None of these villians has shown the insanity and extreme lack of respect for human life that the Joker has.

 

He's murdered thousands

 

He's crippled Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

 

He's murdered Sarah Essen Gordon (Commishioner Gordon's Wife)

 

He's murdered Jason Todd (second Robin)

 

The list can go on and on.

 

Currently the second Robin has come back from the dead and can't understand why Bats never wasted Joker.

 

Can ya' blame him?

 

BUT... Bruce is a hero and has a respect for life and the LAW that most other heroes don't always have.

 

BUT... in this case, when you just KNOW the Joker will strike again... wouldn't it be more responsible to finally wax him and end the reign of terror that the Joker has?

 

It's a tough decision and I think only the wonderful members of TRF can truly come up with the definitive answer on this topic.

 

Please state your reasons as well.

[Necromancer]

I voted yes. I think that there are some villians that just transcend regular justice and Joker is definitely one of them. While there may be an argument that his insanity is what feuls him to such lengths of horror, I don't find the argument compelling enough to stand up to the THOUSANDS of people DEAD at his hands.

 

It's obvious that Arkham can not cure him and that he will NOT be rehabilitated, so it's time to end his reign of terror on Gotham before he commits some random act of mass murder.

 

Bats thinks crossing this line would lead to him doing it more. Maybe so, but the Joker is definitely one that has to go. I wouldn't miss the character if they pulled this off. The fact that they haven't actually makes me sick.

[Necromancer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Todddies.jpg

 

This was one of the most moving stories ever written in DC continuity. I highly recommend "A Death in the Family" for any Batman fan or even a non-fan. It's a good read.

[Necromancer]

http://blog.funtax.org/images/deathofrobinsm.jpg

[Necromancer]

http://www.superherostuff.com/OtherItems/comics/images/batman_killing_joke2.jpg

 

THE KILLING JOKE

 

Another classic story of Joker's evil. In this book by Alan Moore (V for Vendetta), Joker's spree of insanity includes the attempted murder of Commissioner Gordon. He shoots Barbara Gordon (Batgirl) in the back and leaves her paralyzed.)

[treeduck]

If it were happening for real then yeah...

 

But in comics heroes need villains or they don't need to be heroes anymore and The Joker is synonymous with Batman. They'll no more kill off The Joker than they'll kill off Batman himself and if they did they'd have to find a way to bring him back just like they have with his Marvel equivalent The Green Goblin.

[Necromancer]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 19 2006, 11:50 PM)

If it were happening for real then yeah... But in comics heroes need villains or they don't need to be heroes anymore and The Joker is synonymous with Batman. They'll no more kill off The Joker than they'll kill off Batman himself and if they did they'd have to find a way to bring him back just like they have with his Marvel equivalent The Green Goblin.

I like a bit of realism in my comics. I think it would be a phenomenal series of stories of how Bats comes to grip with how it HAS to be done. If I were to write it... this would be my outline.

 

Joker escapes from Arkham Asylum (AGAIN!!!). He leaves a trail of dead and wounded with him in his escape. He's livid over the return of Jason Todd. When Jason returned he beat the Joker to within an inch of his life and then assumed Joker's original identity of the Red Hood. Now Joker wants revenge for this "atrocity" he feels was committed against him.

 

Jason has begun to work more along the lines of how Bats would wish him to, and though not a full member of Batman's team of vigilantes, he does operate within Batman's guidelines and recieves assistance from Oracle (Barbara Gordon) these days. Joker tracks Jason to Oracle's lair and once Jason has left, Joker sneaks in.

 

Barbara senses a presence and thinks it is Jason returned. She spins in her wheelchair to see the Joker closing in. She has no time at all to react. Within seconds the Joker has her. He tortures her unmercifully before finally taking her life.

 

Cut to Barbara Gordon's funeral. It's a huge ceremony and all of the GCPD is there to honor their Commisioner's loss. The entire Bat family is also there in civilian disguise. Bruce himself is off by himself. Not close to the proceedings. When the proceedings are done, Gordon walks a b-line over to Bruce and punches him squarely in the face, knocking him down. Bruce doesn't get up. He just lies there. Gordon says... "Of course... Do NOTHING. That's all you've done for years... NOTHING!!! Now he's taken my daughter too." Then he leaves. Dick and Selina help Bruce to his feet. They enter the limo that Alfred has parked on the road.

 

Selina: Does Jim Gordon KNOW???

Bruce: I've never told him. I tried once and he wouldn't let me. He said don't insult his ability as a detective to have not already found out.

Dick (staring out window. He was in a love affair with Babs): He has every right to be mad. We all do. How is it that Joker still lives???

Bruce: Dick, you know more than anyone that I ...

Dick (cutting Bruce off): That you can't KILL? So everything you've ever done has been nullified by this insane bastard. What good is ANYTHING you've done?

 

Final panel of Bruce with head down... sulking as the words haunt him.

 

More to come

 

 

[Necromancer]

The second arc of this story would be Bruce going through his guilt phase. Re-living in his mind all the horrible acts and atrocities committed by Joker. There'd be scenes of him taking his anger out on other criminals. Beating Killer Croc to within an inch of his life, taking out entire gangs with nothing but fists. Mindless violence. Trying to purge himself of his guilt.

 

NOTHING WORKS.

 

Superman and WonderWoman arrive at the cave. They've given him time, but they now feel that an intervention of sorts is needed. They have both played judge jury and executioner in their time as heroes and they know what he is struggling with. Both of them admit they don't know how he's let Joker live so long. He turns to them... eyes filled with tears... screaming how he can't. He can't kill. It was a brutal murder that made him what he is and if he goes against that vow he made to himself... he's worthless, and that if that happens... then JOKER WINS. WonderWoman puts a hand on his shoulder and gently reminds him that THIS... is not a game. It's not about who wins their precious little battle of wits. It's about justice. And that Joker has escaped justice far too long.

 

As they turn to leave, Superman tells him that the entire JLA stands behind whatever decision he chooses to make. They will NOT come after him should he choose to end the Joker's reign of terror.

 

Bruce falls into a sleep deprived coma. He has nightmares of all of Joker's victims crying out to him. WHY??? Why did WE have to die and HE still walks?

 

Bruce awakens and Jason Todd is there. Jason sits next to Bruce and tells him that so many things have changed. He's forgiven Bruce for not killing Joker, but he still hasn't forgotten it. He can't understand why, and the forgiveness only comes because he loves Bruce. He tells him it took a long time to come to forgiveness, but it's not a complete understanding. He asks how much more Bruce's conscience can take.

 

Bruce angrily shoots back: "If i walk YOUR road... If I kill Joker... I'll never come back. I won't be able to control it and I'll be a worse nightmare than the Joker EVER was".

 

Jason: You've been telling yourself that for years now. Do you honestly think that would happen to you?

 

Bruce: It happened to you, didn't it.

 

Jason: Don't even compare us. I was NEVER the kind of man you are. I was angry and bitter and had thoughts of killing before you ever met me. YOU made it so that I wasn't a bigger nightmare than Joker. How could you even think that you could let yourself slip into the abyss I was in?

 

Bruce (sobbing uncharacteristically): I ... I don't know what to do.

 

Dick (standing in shadows whole time): Yes you do Bruce. Yes you do. You've known it for a long time. You hoped it would never come to this. It has. And it's come because BARBARA IS DEAD. It should have never come this far.

 

Jason: You don't have to do anything Bruce. WE can handle it. Don't worry about a thing

 

Dick: Stay here in your cave. Cry yourself to sleep again. Do whatever it does to make you feel better. We'll get the job done. You trained us for moments like this. You trained us to avoid this at all costs, but at the same time you taught us every lethal blow and maneauver we could use. Now the time has come to use them.

 

Jason and Dick turn to leave.

 

Bruce continues to sob uncontrollably.

 

End of this arc.

[Necromancer]

The final arc picks up shortly after the last. Alfred escorts Commissioner Gordon into the cave. Bruce is at the console of his command center.

 

He turns and sees Gordon's expressionless face. He hangs his head.

 

Gordon: Is that all you can do man? Hang your head?

 

Bruce: It's too late to do anything else isn't it?

 

Gordon: It's too late for Barbara. It was too late for Jason until this miracle that brought him back. It's too late for Sarah. It's too late for countless thousands that he's killed. BUT it's NOT too late to stop him from killng more thousands. From taking more wives and daughters... and sons. God only knows how many more he's killed since Barbara.

 

Bruce: (silence)

 

Gordon: I never respected anyone until I met you. I've lost all that now. You're vows to yourself and your hiding in guilt only shows a weakness I never thought you had in you. You are not wanted on my streets anymore Bruce. Consider yourself as much of a fugitive as Joker. I see you on my streets and you will be brought down. Understand?

 

Bruce: (silence)

 

 

Scene cut to Jason and Dick suiting up. Robin and Catwoman enter the room.

 

Selina: You're not in this alone you two.

 

Tim: We're right behind you

 

Dick (yelling): NO!!! This is OUR fight. She was our partner long before either of you came along. This is NOT your fight. (begins to sob)

 

Selina (stroking Dick's hair, comforting him). There's a safety in numbers kid. You do what you have to do, but we'll be there for you and there's nothing you can do about it. Don't waste time fighting about it.

 

Tim (staring nervously at Jason). Yeah... we're a team... sort of. This affected us too you know? I loved Barbara too Dick. Don't forget that.

 

Dick (head hanging sobbing, whispers) I know.

 

Jason (to Tim): The suit really fits you kid. You've done both of us proud. In my case, you make me jealous. You're the Robin I only WISH I could have been.

 

Selina: Okay... let's not get too mushy here. We've a job to do. Let's do it.

 

Dick turns to Jason: He's MINE.

 

Jason: Whoever gets him first bro. I've got my issues with him too. I won't pull you off him... don't YOU pull ME off him either.

 

Dick: Agreed.

 

They leave

 

 

Scene cuts to a shadowed Batman kneeling at the grave of his parents.

 

I'm sorry father. I'm sorry Mother... he whispers. He somehow feels their blessing as this is the only sane choice left. He stands tall, illuminated by the eerie glow of the autumn full moon. The time has finally come. He knows what he has to do. He leaves the cemetary.

 

Cut to Bats in his car, listening to police channels. Joker and his gang have been active tonight. They've looted an after hours club owned by mafia and killed nearly every patron in the establishment. Cops are on the scene. Joker was seen fleeing on foot. Bats spins the car to cross town to where this is occurring.

 

He gets to the rooftops above the scene and scans the entire area with his night vision scopes. In an alley he sees the Joker surrounded by Nightwing and Jason. Robin and Catwoman are down. He immediately swings down to enter the fray. As he arrives on scene, Dick has tackled Joker and has him pinned to the ground. He begins to choke Joker. Jason watches and smiles. A caped shadow comes out of nowhere to knock Nightwing off Joker with near brutal force. Nightwing rolls into a ready position to find that it was BATMAN.

 

Joker tries to pick himself up and mockingly THANKS Batman for saving his life AGAIN. Batman looks at Jason. Then at Dick. He meets their eyes and they KNOW what's about to happen. Batman hangs his head in shame for the last time.

 

He spins to face Joker. He picks him up and begins the beating. Joker can't even get one of his stupid insane jokes out. Bats just mercilessly pummels him. As he does, Catwoman and Robin come back to consciousness. The GCPD arrive and Gordon holds them back. They obey willingly. No one will fight Gordon on this call. Bats continues his total destruction of Joker. No fighting style or fancy blows, just mindless fists beating on his face over and over. Joker slumps to the ground. Bats picks him up and positions him over his shoulders. He grabs him by the neck and legs and flexes. This breaks the Joker's spine in multiple areas. He's crippled. Bats throws him to the ground.

 

Joker, barely conscious, manages to let one of his sick cackles out. He sputters through blood... You still can't finish the job can you? You think this will stop me? Somehow i'll manage. I'll find disciples... something. It will NEVER end BRUCE.

 

Batman's face nearly drops.

 

Joker: Do... you... think your parents would be proud of you for this? For letting me kill for so long? DO YOU?!!?

 

Batman drops to his knees. He extends his thickly muscled arm out and clenches Joker by the throat. He begins to squeeze. Joker begins to slip... he's almost gone. He smiles at Batman and sputters out... "Good... you finally get the joke". Batman squeezes tighter. At the last second... a moment of clarity enters Joker's eyes and the man that once possibly was comes to the front of the Joker's twisted mind. He barely breathes out the words... THANK YOU.

 

The Joker dies.

 

Batman stands and faces his "family". They rush to embrace him.

 

Gordon tells the police to withdraw. Nothing to see here. No reports to make. He goes to Batman.

 

Gordon: I'll take care of the rest Bruce.

 

Batman: Don't call me that. Bruce is DEAD. I'm all that's left now.

 

Gordon: I'm sorry BRUCE. But that's not true. Don't pull your melodramatic shit with me. You did what you had to do. You saved one of your wards from doing it. It was a long time coming. If you need to beat yourself up about it, go ahead. No one else will though. It was deserved and long overdue. If you can't find solace in that, then maybe you should hang up the cowl.

 

Batman looks to his people again. They are all behind him in this. He begins to know it was the right thing to do.

 

Batman: Jim... i need time.

 

Jim: Understood. We'll all be here. Gotham... YOUR city... will still be here. And we'll still NEED YOU. So don't take too long this time okay?

 

Batman: I'll try

 

He goes to Dick. Hugs him and whipsers how sorry he is. He leaps, blindingly fast, to his rope and is gone.

 

Final scene is of the Joker's face... finally lifeless, but with a look of sanity that was never there before. The smile on his face is one of contentment and not insanity. The man inside Joker, who could only watch as his insane body committed atrocious act after act... is finally at peace.

 

Barbara Gordon smiles.

 

 

THE END!!!

[treeduck]

You'd think that if superman got involved one punch would do the job...

 

Thing is Necro if the Joker died they'd have to make up a new guy to replace him and if he was any good you'd be screaming for his neck too. I have to say I like the bad guys as long as I'm a spectator...

[Batman]

Not bad Necro.

 

I still can't see Batman killing anyone. But the your premise makes it believable

[treeduck]

Yeah good ideas there but no You can't have Batman without the Joker...

 

I suppose you could have him dead in one continuity and alive and well in another one how's that?

[Necromancer]

QUOTE (Batman @ Oct 20 2006, 06:38 PM)

Not bad Necro. I still can't see Batman killing anyone. But the your premise makes it believable

I can't either, but he's gotta go bros. Seriously... how can we consider these tights wearin' mofos heroes if they just keep letting these guys WALK???

 

Okay... maybe if they started imprisoning them in Superman's Phantom Zone. That would be cool.

 

But since DC and Marvel have upped the violence level of these top tier villians, just putting them away in Arkhum or whatever, just doesn't seem enough anymore. It makes the comics almost laughable.

 

But the repercussions of bats killing anyone would be unreal. I do see that.

[Necromancer]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 06:43 PM)

Yeah good ideas there but no You can't have Batman without the Joker... I suppose you could have him dead in one continuity and alive and well in another one how's that?

 

only the main continuity matters to me.

 

I think Bats can survive fine and dandy without Joker. Look how long Spidey went without the Goblin. A character of that magnitude isn't based on his hall of nemeses, but on how he handles said nemeses. I consider Joker and all the old time rouges to be lame anyway. I much prefer his more recent villians.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 07:27 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 06:43 PM) Yeah good ideas there but no You can't have Batman without the Joker... I suppose you could have him dead in one continuity and alive and well in another one how's that?   only the main continuity matters to me.   I think Bats can survive fine and dandy without Joker. Look how long Spidey went without the Goblin. A character of that magnitude isn't based on his hall of nemeses, but on how he handles said nemeses. I consider Joker and all the old time rouges to be lame anyway. I much prefer his more recent villians. What do you think will actually happen though?

[Necromancer]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 10:09 PM)

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 07:27 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 06:43 PM) Yeah good ideas there but no You can't have Batman without the Joker... I suppose you could have him dead in one continuity and alive and well in another one how's that?   only the main continuity matters to me.   I think Bats can survive fine and dandy without Joker. Look how long Spidey went without the Goblin. A character of that magnitude isn't based on his hall of nemeses, but on how he handles said nemeses. I consider Joker and all the old time rouges to be lame anyway. I much prefer his more recent villians. What do you think will actually happen though? I think it's time for him to go and I think it's THE story waiting to be written in the DC universe. Nothing would top it. The DEATH OF SUPERMAN was awesome. The Breaking of the Bat was amazing. All these shakeups and time continuum re-boots are lame. You need a purely character driven story with far reaching repercussions. THIS would be that story. It's time has come. Today's fan can deal with the death of a major villian. It's been done. They find a way to bring them back anyway. So why not finally have the story and deal with it's fallout for a few years?   In my opinion, it would be awesome. I haven't sent in a submission to any of the big companies in years, but I'm thinking of sending this outline in. My buddy Tom Derenick already is a famous artist for DC AND Marvel. Maybe I can get him to do a few panels for me to give it a full professional look and if he passes it on to the editor for me, I know it will at least be read.     but until DC reads MY treatment for this storyline... they'll never do it.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 09:27 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 10:09 PM) QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 07:27 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 06:43 PM) Yeah good ideas there but no You can't have Batman without the Joker... I suppose you could have him dead in one continuity and alive and well in another one how's that?   only the main continuity matters to me.   I think Bats can survive fine and dandy without Joker. Look how long Spidey went without the Goblin. A character of that magnitude isn't based on his hall of nemeses, but on how he handles said nemeses. I consider Joker and all the old time rouges to be lame anyway. I much prefer his more recent villians. What do you think will actually happen though? I think it's time for him to go and I think it's THE story waiting to be written in the DC universe. Nothing would top it. The DEATH OF SUPERMAN was awesome. The Breaking of the Bat was amazing. All these shakeups and time continuum re-boots are lame. You need a purely character driven story with far reaching repercussions. THIS would be that story. It's time has come. Today's fan can deal with the death of a major villian. It's been done. They find a way to bring them back anyway. So why not finally have the story and deal with it's fallout for a few years?   In my opinion, it would be awesome. I haven't sent in a submission to any of the big companies in years, but I'm thinking of sending this outline in. My buddy Tom Derenick already is a famous artist for DC AND Marvel. Maybe I can get him to do a few panels for me to give it a full professional look and if he passes it on to the editor for me, I know it will at least be read.     but until DC reads MY treatment for this storyline... they'll never do it. One thing about Spidey going without the Goblin; he went without the original Green Goblin Norman Osbourne yeah, but then you had Mark II Harry Osbourne, plus at least two more before Norman finally returned AND there's the Hob Goblin. And Spidey has so many arch enemies one going missing is no big thing, not with the likes of, Dr Octopus, Kraven, The Vulture, Venom, Electro, The Sandman, The Scorpion, Carnage, Morbius, The Lizard, The Rhino, Mysterio, Hydro man, The Owl, The Kingpin, The Shocker, The Molton Man, The Chameleon, Tombstone, The Absorbing Man, The Jackal, Morlun, Shathra, Man-Wolf, Hammerhead, The Black Tarantula, The Jack O'Lantern, The Rose etc about. So I don't think he was missed quite as obviously as the Joker might be.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 19 2006, 07:52 AM)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Todddies.jpg This was one of the most moving stories ever written in DC continuity. I highly recommend "A Death in the Family" for any Batman fan or even a non-fan. It's a good read.

That story makes me think of Bucky dying on Captain America...

[Necromancer]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 11:02 PM)

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 19 2006, 07:52 AM) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Todddies.jpg This was one of the most moving stories ever written in DC continuity.  I highly recommend "A Death in the Family" for any Batman fan or even a non-fan.  It's a good read.  That story makes me think of Bucky dying on Captain America... Bucky's back too.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 10:18 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 11:02 PM) QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 19 2006, 07:52 AM) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Todddies.jpg This was one of the most moving stories ever written in DC continuity.  I highly recommend "A Death in the Family" for any Batman fan or even a non-fan.  It's a good read.  That story makes me think of Bucky dying on Captain America... Bucky's back too. There you go then, you know as well as I do that even if they did your DEATH OF THE JOKER story he'd be back larger than life before too long. Just be glad there's not a Joker clone, or other pseudo-Jokers out there...   Damn I'm talking about him like he's real!!

[CeeJ]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 11:26 PM)

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 10:18 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 11:02 PM) QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 19 2006, 07:52 AM) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Todddies.jpg This was one of the most moving stories ever written in DC continuity.  I highly recommend "A Death in the Family" for any Batman fan or even a non-fan.  It's a good read.  That story makes me think of Bucky dying on Captain America... Bucky's back too. There you go then, you know as well as I do that even if they did your DEATH OF THE JOKER story he'd be back larger than life before too long. Just be glad there's not a Joker clone, or other pseudo-Jokers out there...   Damn I'm talking about him like he's real!!     Don't you KNOW that NECRO believes this stuff???       Now you'll be in for it.

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 21 2006, 09:24 AM)

QUOTE (Batman @ Oct 20 2006, 06:38 PM) Not bad Necro.  I still can't see Batman killing anyone. But the your premise makes it believable I can't either, but he's gotta go bros. Seriously... how can we consider these tights wearin' mofos heroes if they just keep letting these guys WALK???   Because they're heroes not vigilantes and mercenaries. Plus, Batman isn't the kind of killer like a Wolverine is.   However, I can actually see the Joker death working. But since he would be resurrected then why even kill him off? There is no killing in Marvel or DC.

[treeduck]

QUOTE (CeeJ @ Oct 20 2006, 11:10 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 11:26 PM) QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 20 2006, 10:18 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Oct 20 2006, 11:02 PM) QUOTE (Necromancer @ Oct 19 2006, 07:52 AM) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f7/Todddies.jpg This was one of the most moving stories ever written in DC continuity.  I highly recommend "A Death in the Family" for any Batman fan or even a non-fan.  It's a good read.  That story makes me think of Bucky dying on Captain America... Bucky's back too. There you go then, you know as well as I do that even if they did your DEATH OF THE JOKER story he'd be back larger than life before too long. Just be glad there's not a Joker clone, or other pseudo-Jokers out there...   Damn I'm talking about him like he's real!!     Don't you KNOW that NECRO believes this stuff???       Now you'll be in for it.

[what went wrong?]

No-one who has that little respect for human life should be allowed to live in "normal" society. He should have either remainned in Arkham for the rest of his pathetic life or be put to death for the good of the people. He brings nothing good to the table; he isn't even an appealing villain anymore.

[Necromancer]

QUOTE (what went wrong? @ Oct 22 2006, 12:41 AM)

No-one who has that little respect for human life should be allowed to live in "normal" society. He should have either remainned in Arkham for the rest of his pathetic life or be put to death for the good of the people. He brings nothing good to the table; he isn't even an appealing villain anymore.

 

 

It seems that all that can be done with him now is for each subsequent writer to make him WORSE than the previous writer. His acts of evil are at the point they can't be surpassed by each writer within comic code standards anyway. I don't want the floodgates to be open on characters being killed by heroes, but at the same time... how long can it go on until it's just stupid?

 

Did anyone read Maximum Carnage? Carnage was on an unstoppable rampage and Spidey actually fought other heroes to stop them from killing him. I thought that was ludicrous. Kletus had no regard for human life before he became Carnage. Now he just had limitless power to carry out his ridiculous schemes of evil. So Spidey didn't want to do it... he should have just turned his back and let Cap or Firestorm handle it like they wanted to.