Primer (spoilers)

[Schro]

I know I'm supposed to see this movie like 5 or 6 times before I ask the High Priests of Primer to shed light on this movie, but I just can't wait.

 

For those who have watched this film the prerequisite number of viewings, thought and posted endlessly on the subject off the offical movie website, debated fiercely on finer points of the film that even the creators didn't think of, and are an active member of TRF (i.e. Pedro):

 

I would be most appreciative if you would shine your wisdom here on what's really going on in this movie. The things that are hard to pick up but represent the brilliance of the writers for those that look beneath the surface. I realize this may take some time, but perhaps you can collect some of your other meaty posts together that you've already written.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Schro

Edited August 27, 2005 by Schro

[Rolinda Bonz]

yes, please

 

 

who was in the box?

 

 

and what happened to Thomas?

[pedro2112]

Well, there are actually a lot of questions that are "unknowable"...... in otherwords, there are no "correct" answers because there isn't enough information in the movie. However, Shane Carruth has stated that for all the major plot points there is enough information in the movie to figure it all out by just watching the movie with the exception of one issue.... Thomas Granger. Since he obviously came back from someone's f*cked up future, there is no way that Abe or Aaron could know exactly how he found out about the box and traveled back in time. There are many different theories, but as the narrator of the movies said.. "the permutations are endless."

 

Actually, Schro, I've only seen the movie three times.. and the third time was actually with the director's commentary (which wasn't much help.) I did read an interview online with Carruth in which I found the following facts:

 

1) At the end of the movie, there were 2 Abes and at least 3 Aarons

 

2) The whole movie is from Abe's linear perspective (other than the few flashback scenes when the narrator explains who Aaron found out about the failsafe).

 

 

[Midway Hawker]

I've watched it 3 times and plan on watching it again soon. I've also read the movie as "subtitles" so I could pick up on some of the harder things to hear.. I have a basic understanding of the plot, but I still get real confused with the 3 Aarons at the end.

 

I've been meaning to start this thread days ago! Just never got to it. Thanks Schro for starting it. I have so many questions I'm not sure where to start. I'm sure many of them don't have concrete answers, but some of them might. I need to formulate my thoughts on this, but for now I might just throw out a few things..

 

The first time Abe goes back, he sets the timer that turns the machine on 8:45am, goes to the hotel, comes back at 3pm, turns the machine off, gets in the machine and begins to travel back. When he gets out of the machine it's 8:45 am. he is the original Abe (Abe0) now living in his double's past (by about 15 minutes). His double is on his way to the hotel. Now, Abe0 lives out his day, does a stock trade, whatever..... But at 3pm he can see his double Abe1 going back into the U-haul place.. Abe1 gets in the machine and begins to travel back in time. Or does he? He already did it once. Does the double now travel back into a third parallel time line? It seems like he does, but the movie seems to stipulate that as long as the double (Abe1 in this example) gets back into the box just as original Abe0 did in the earlier time line, then Abe1 ceases to exist.. Why, I don't know.. But I can acccept the fact that it happens becauses that's the "rules" the movie lays down. However, in my mind, there would now be an endless loop of timelines as each sucessive AbeX gets into the box and travels back.... The only thing that stops this endless wave of timelines is when a certain AbeX decides to not get into the box, thus breaking the chain (so to speak) and leaving a permanent double (which we see happening later in the movie).. The endless timelines become irrelavent as only the latest revision is remembered as per the movie's rules. This is a fatal flaw in reasoning (in my opinion) but I guess that is necessary in a movie that is trying to make sense of time travel...

 

I'm not sure if the above is a question, a statement, a comment, or a complete mindless rambling... Whatever it is, there will certainly be more to come!

 

A to B = different degrees

 

B to A = time travelling backwards

Edited August 28, 2005 by Earthshine

[Midway Hawker]

To clarify my above rambling...

 

I don't really mean that Abe1 ceases to exist.. But that he travels back into a third time line, which would continue until an AbeX finally does not get into the box, thus leaving a double in THAT particular time line. But for Abe0 and HIS time line (the time line that really counts), it's only important that Abe1 get into the box to ensure that Abe0 continues as the only Abe in his time line. Is that correct? It makes sense to me this way. The only thing that's weird is that ultimately Abe would have to know that eventually in some particular time line that there are multiple versions of himself running around (even if HE was the only Abe in his current time line). Maybe he is aware of this and doesn't care, or maybe he is just not aware of this... The movie doesn't really get into it. I think the only real conclusion is that the "permutations are endless".

 

 

[Rolinda Bonz]

QUOTE (Earthshine @ Aug 27 2005, 05:26 PM)

A to B = different degrees B to A = time travelling backwards

[Rolinda Bonz]

QUOTE (Earthshine @ Aug 27 2005, 05:44 PM)

To clarify my above rambling... I don't really mean that Abe1 ceases to exist.. But that he travels back into a third time line, which would continue until an AbeX finally does not get into the box, thus leaving a double in THAT particular time line. But for Abe0 and HIS time line (the time line that really counts), it's only important that Abe1 get into the box to ensure that Abe0 continues as the only Abe in his time line. Is that correct? It makes sense to me this way. The only thing that's weird is that ultimately Abe would have to know that eventually in some particular time line that there are multiple versions of himself running around (even if HE was the only Abe in his current time line). Maybe he is aware of this and doesn't care, or maybe he is just not aware of this... The movie doesn't really get into it. I think the only real conclusion is that the "permutations are endless".

I dunno. The first instance of the both of them traveling back together showed Aaron disappear before our eyes after he parked the car out of sight. Did anyone else see that?

[Midway Hawker]

Yes, he disappears from THAT time line (the time line that we are seeing) but does he really just vanish? I don't think so, he continues in the next time line which will be forgotten about as long as his next double gets in the box...

 

[spirit of radio]

Pass the blotter

[Midway Hawker]

Just finished watching again for the 4th time (no, I'm not obsessed... ok, maybe I am).. Watched/Listened to it while reading the subtitles.

 

I think I pretty much have it now. I finally understand the time line of the movie.. One of the keys is making sure you are following it from Abe's perspective.. I'm still a bit shaky on where Aaron3 comes from and why they fight, and why Aaron3 "wants it more" than Aaron2, all the while Aaron1 is in the attic... Pedro/anyone, can you explain where Aaron3 comes from? And I still don't quite understand what the significance is of taking a box back through the failsafe box. Did it somehow allow Aaron to go back further than when the original FailSafe was turned on?

 

[pedro2112]

Two of the most difficult concepts for me to understand about the movie (which you must if you are going to understand what is going on) are:

 

1) There is no multiverse.. there is only one reality that gets "revised" when one travels back in the box; and

 

2) Paradoxes can happen.. the universe doesn't fall apart, although some people physiologically cannot deal with it (granger).

 

Regarding number one, there are two many "doubles" running into each other, fighting and gassing each other, for this to be a multiverse. Someone came up with an analogy of time with water that makes the most sense to me. That discussion can be found HERE. Once someone goes back into time, then the universe is 'revised' and (as the narrator states in the movie), only the last revision counts. That is why Aaron was so upset in the car after he found out Abe already timetravelled, because he knew that he 'lost' a the first day Abe timetravelled.. that is why he mused "I wonder what I did that first day." It also explains why he was so upset when he found out about Abe's failsafe... the whole movie, albeit using a time machine, is really about trust between two friends.

 

Earthshine, there are no continous time loops (with one small exception). The procedure that Abe devised was very very meticulous and would avoid most symmetry and causality problems. One turns on the box, then leaves and goes to an out of town motel and avoids contact completely so as to "disappear" and not get involved in any causality or symmetry problems. Then one goes back to the box six hours later, goes in waits in the box for six hours. Instead of coming out of the box six hours later, he instead comes out six hours earlier. His temporary "double".. the one that turned on the box, is out of town and out of sight. So one can prance about town and do what one needs to do (stock market, march madness, etc.). Then, like clockwork, one's temporary double goes back to town and goes in the box and disappears from existence. If every thing goes according to plan, there are no permanent doubles, and there is only one person in existence with the exception of those short 6 hours when there is a temporary double... a temp that should be out of town and out of sight for a while. Of course, that doesn't happen in the movie and things get way out of control.

 

The one exception to the "non-looping" issue is Aaron and the party scene. There is a suggestion in the movie that he may have brought back some additional boxes with him when he discovered and used Abe's original failsafe, and he may have used those boxes to loop the first day over and over again to get the party incident 'just right.' We don't know for sure how many times that night was repeated, we do know it was done at least three times.

 

 

Regarding paradoxes and a break in symmetry. The first "problem" we see with this in the movie (which is from Abe's perspective) is the cell phone. Personally, as the Aaron we see from the first bench scene onward is actually Aaron3, not the original Aaron, I think it is a way of testing Abe as to whether he wants to experiment with causality. Aaron already knows that nothing will happen to them if they f**k with causality (Aaron already has at least two other versions of himself by the time the first cell phone scene comes along in the hotel room), so he perhaps is testing Abe to see if he'll push the envelope along with Aaron. I guess the "rule" is that the universe doesn't break down (i.e going back in time to before you were born and killing your grandmother, so that you also wink out of existence) when a paradox occurs.. but that specific individuals (i.e. Granger) may have a problem with the recursive effects.

 

Regarding Earthshines questions regarding Aaron 3, I believe those are fairly straightforward as portrayed in the film. Aaron must have brought back at least two boxes with him when he used Abe's original failsafe. One box was to set up a 'fake' failsafe for Abe so he wouldnt' suspect Aaron traveled back in time already, and the other was to help him redo the first two days so that he can become the "hero" of the party when Rachel's ex shows up with the shotgun. (which is a whole other discussion). In order for his 'hero' plan to work, he had to knock out his original and take his place (otherwise, he'd get the speil from Abe that day and go back in time the following day with Abe. ) He then put him in the attic, drugged, and did what he needed to do to live out the party again. He could then go back in time to before he woke up on the first day and do it all over again until he 'got it right.'

 

Where Aaron 3 comes in is the second time he came back to do the party right. The first time something must have either gone wrong, or it didn't have the effect he wanted. So he concocted an idea that he was going to record all the conversations of the first two days so that everything goes and is said to make certain that he becomes the hero of the party. When he drugs his original and Aaron 3 shows up.. the Aaron 3 is the Aaron2 that already did the recordings. Aaron 3 convinced Aaron 2 to just leave, because Aaron 3 already did what Aaron 2 was planning on doing.. the recordings. So Aaron 2 leaves, and the Aaron we see starting from the first bench scene and throughout the rest of the movie (except for the few flashbacks) is actualy Aaron3.

 

Hope that helps!

 

[Midway Hawker]

yeah, I think that helps... sorta..

 

 

A lot of those things are so subtly hinted at in the movie, it's hard to put it all together. I think I'm going to try and not think about this movie for a week or so and see if I can clear my head and then come back to it with a fresh mind.

 

Thanks Pedro.

 

 

[Schro]

Wow Pedro, that was just what the doctor ordered. Sorry I can't add any gems myself right now until I see it again.

 

At least now I can sleep at night, that is until the next indie time travel movie comes out.

 

 

Schro