Need advice about E-Drum sound reinforcement

[the masked drummer]

First of all I'm seeing the "fresh new look" of TRF for the first time today. Great job, not that it needed improvement. I always appreciate the endeavors of the staff here. Good people making sacrifices to be cool in the name of a great band and most people just gripe... Take a bow, please!

Ahem... Where was I??

K.. I bought a Roland KC-60 keyboard combo amp (40 watts - 8" & horn) recently for an e-drum monitor and it works well, but it's going on a ups truck later today and am looking for a drastic boost of volume and punch. I almost stepped up to a KC-550, Roland's only keyboard amp with a 15" driver, but it's over 60 lbs and bass doesn't kick as much as I'd like. I'd add a sub to that setup but I'm looking at other alternatives. They now have a stereo

Application:

To be used for playing small-medium clubs in conjunction with a fairly small PA system, just for vocals. My goal is to eliminate any drum mic'ing via triggers and just let cymbals get picked up by vocal mics.

The playing field is different now that I switched genres from metal to classic rock / blues. Most of the clubs I'm playing now won't have a PA system at all, sometimes no stage, no drum riser. nada.

The PA we bring is great for vocals but gets all muddied up when you try to add instruments, so I'm taking matters into my own hands. This way I can insure not only that drums are heard and felt, but that I have control over my drum sounds via my sound module. No hassles with feedback, etc.

And finally...

The $64,000 QUESTION: Where do I start? (USED prices in USD)

1. Utilize the 15" / horn cabinet I already own, add a power amp which would only run $150 for a used one. The advantage would be less weight, but disadvantage is it's in two pieces and needs to be wired and setup every time. $150 total
   
2. Get a powered cabinet like the Peavey or JBL with a 15"/horn. Try that and add a sub later if needed by getting an amp for my 15 cabinet and unplugging the horn. $300-$400 +$150 for sub amp.$450 total
   
3. Roland PM-30 Powered drum monitor (12" w/horn, 2 remote speakers) $450
   
4. Get the Roland KC-550 and add a sub utilizing 15" cab $450 + $150 ($600 total)
   
5. Going stereo by doubling up one of the above, possibly with sub.
   

I don't mind spending more money on this. Please suggest anything up to a grand on used equipment (Guitar Center's used inventory is a good ref).

Thanks for any ideas

[launchpad67a]

My 2 cents here.... It would seem that the PA you're using is more of an issue than your personal drum monitor. If you're willing to spend $1000 then why not upgrade the PA? If you're relying on your drum monitor to project the entire drum mix on it's own (to the room), that is unrealistic, and you'll never get the thump or fullness needed. You would have to be so loud on stage to get that sound out to the room, and you don't want that. A 'monitor' is exactly what it is, a personal monitor to hear yourself and the other instruments/vocals.

Running everything (all instruments) through the PA is the preferred way to go, even in small venues. But at a minimum you always need to run vocals and drums through the PA. At least kick and snare that is. So upgrading the PA to at least 2 - powered tops, and 2 - powered subs would be the best solution for the entire band. This way the band can keep the stage volume down, let the PA do the work, and you won't need tons of monitor for yourself. Make sense?

I know this probably isn't the answer you wanted, but I can assure you it's the better way to approach this, in the big picture.

Edited November 20, 2012 by launchpad67a

[the masked drummer]

Your point is dead-on, but I'm not playing 400-800 seat venues in this band and the pa is basically just a powered mixer to a pair of 12" cabs on stands. And the guitars don't reinforce their intruments. I just joined the band and haven't played a show yet with these cats. Also, if i were to beef up the pa with crossivers and subs, amps etc its going to be a $2k sponsorship by yours truly who isn't ready to commit to that level yet. And we don't have a sound engineer. It has to be a "set it and firget it" type deal.

So with that in mind, I'm looking for some good sounding drum monitoring for

any suggestions?

[Gompers]

I just picked up an Alesis MD10 Studio Pro kit. I searched high and low for drummer input on what amp/speaker I should use. I have pretty much found that the only acceptable thing to use for a personal monitor is an actual drum amp. I picked up the Simmonds DA50 and it works perfect for my needs. I don't play loud venues either, which is part of the reason for even getting the electronic kit, so controlling volume and maintaining a good sound are achievable. This being said, if I had purchased top of the line, I fully expect the sound would be even better. Oh, and e-drums sound great out front through the PA if you have decent samples.

[the masked drummer]

Very cool. Yeah, I'm using the Simmons multipad thing as a sound module with triggers and a couple foot pedals. I'm trying for the first time this idea to play ghost notes with my foot for these Texas shuffle beats and stuff, to see how it works out. Also, cowbell with a foot pedal AND one I can hit with a stick for times I have an arm available. lol

But getting back to the drum monitoring, I think I'm going with option #1 and buy a Mackie 1400i head, hook it up to my cabinet and see how it sounds. If it lacks luster I'll make that my sub and try a powered monitor to fill in frequencies. I'll check back...

In other news, I just got my 14x6.5" Keller snare shell and it measured .047" roundness inside the shell. That's less than 1/16", so I'm happy. The inside diameter measured 13.594" on this 6-ply shell while I was at it. Can't wait to hear it!

OK, back to drum amps. I'll do some research and try to report back if I make any discoveries.

[the masked drummer]

My 2 cents here.... It would seem that the PA you're using is more of an issue than your personal drum monitor. If you're willing to spend $1000 then why not upgrade the PA? If you're relying on your drum monitor to project the entire drum mix on it's own (to the room), that is unrealistic, and you'll never get the thump or fullness needed. You would have to be so loud on stage to get that sound out to the room, and you don't want that. A 'monitor' is exactly what it is, a personal monitor to hear yourself and the other instruments/vocals.

Running everything (all instruments) through the PA is the preferred way to go, even in small venues. But at a minimum you always need to run vocals and drums through the PA. At least kick and snare that is. So upgrading the PA to at least 2 - powered tops, and 2 - powered subs would be the best solution for the entire band. This way the band can keep the stage volume down, let the PA do the work, and you won't need tons of monitor for yourself. Make sense?

I know this probably isn't the answer you wanted, but I can assure you it's the better way to approach this, in the big picture.

 

After eating Turkey Dinner I pondered your advice and thank you for it, LP!!

No matter what, I need a monitor first and foremost. I already have that cabinet. maybe take one small step and buy a mackie 1400i or a QSC amp. Then... get a sub for the PA driven by a separate amp to allow for drum samples from module.

??? or maybe i should get a (modestly priced) powered 15" speaker as a monitor and a 1400i to drive my 15" cab as a sub for the PA then add another sub, like an 18 & a 15 working together? The existing mains are, i believe, mackie passive 12's driven by a powered mixer, not particularly badass. Great for vocals. Add a kick drum and it dominates the mix to the point where vox get squeezed out...

[the masked drummer]

I think he already has a monitor floor wedge for monitoring, but it's def not beefy enough for me, so unfortunately I need to get something decent. I want to put more money into the PA than my vdrum monitor...

[launchpad67a]

I'm glad you reconsidered my suggestion. The PA is the most important part of the band and you'll only sound as good as the PA. The PA doesn't need to be huge or expensive, just full and clean.

As for your monitor, I would seriously consider getting a 'powered cab'. Maybe sell your current cab, then find a used JBL or Mackie powered 15" cab (15" speaker + horn). This eliminates the need to carry power amps around, which sucks. Using your current monitor cab (with power amp) as a sub for the PA won't work right because the cabinet needs to be crossed over ( 140hz or below for sub frequencies) and this requires additional gear. If you can't get a powered cab for your monitor, then buy a mid-priced Crown Amp that has a power rating slightly above the rating of that cabinet. Meaning, if the cab is rated at 400 watts, get an amp rated at least 450 watts or more. Crown makes the best power, don't think otherwise.

As for a PA sub cab...JBL, EV and Mackie all make great powered 18" subs. Adding just 1 sub to your current PA will do wonders for the mix.

My entire PA, including monitors, is self powered and modular. It's literally 'plug and play' and makes set up so easy. It sets up in less than 15 minutes and doesn't require power amps or crossovers. They are all built-in to the cabs.

Edited November 23, 2012 by launchpad67a

[the masked drummer]

-You know, LP, I really do owe you one. Your point was well taken. I talked to the guys about it and they seemed receptive to the idea of adding sub/s and running all instruments thru it. I realize now I was coming from the wrong angle. I'm putting that plan into motion now. Another thing I considered was that my monitor doesn't need to provide super deep or strong bass because the lows from the sub off the PA will be felt all around the venue including back in my area. I just need something nice and punchy like my old Mackie 12" powered monitor i used to power my zendrum/dm5. I'll go to a guitar center and have the pro audio guy demo the different ones that are out now. That product line sure did take off like a rocket.

There's an old roland PM-3 on cl right now for $200. The idea of speakers up on my drumset with the band/drum mix seems like it would work. I can get something nicer later. for now I want to enhance the PA with a sub for our first gig and go from there.

TY again! :codger:

 

 

I'm glad you reconsidered my suggestion. The PA is the most important part of the band and you'll only sound as good as the PA. The PA doesn't need to be huge or expensive, just full and clean.

As for your monitor, I would seriously consider getting a 'powered cab'. Maybe sell your current cab, then find a used JBL or Mackie powered 15" cab (15" speaker + horn). This eliminates the need to carry power amps around, which sucks. Using your current monitor cab (with power amp) as a sub for the PA won't work right because the cabinet needs to be crossed over ( 140hz or below for sub frequencies) and this requires additional gear. If you can't get a powered cab for your monitor, then buy a mid-priced Crown Amp that has a power rating slightly above the rating of that cabinet. Meaning, if the cab is rated at 400 watts, get an amp rated at least 450 watts or more. Crown makes the best power, don't think otherwise.

As for a PA sub cab...JBL, EV and Mackie all make great powered 18" subs. Adding just 1 sub to your current PA will do wonders for the mix.

My entire PA, including monitors, is self powered and modular. It's literally 'plug and play' and makes set up so easy. It sets up in less than 15 minutes and doesn't require power amps or crossovers. They are all built-in to the cabs.

[the masked drummer]

an 18" powered sub sounds like a good way to go, brother. Simplicity rules!

 

-You know, LP, I really do owe you one. Your point was well taken. I talked to the guys about it and they seemed receptive to the idea of adding sub/s and running all instruments thru it. I realize now I was coming from the wrong angle. I'm putting that plan into motion now. Another thing I considered was that my monitor doesn't need to provide super deep or strong bass because the lows from the sub off the PA will be felt all around the venue including back in my area. I just need something nice and punchy like my old Mackie 12" powered monitor i used to power my zendrum/dm5. I'll go to a guitar center and have the pro audio guy demo the different ones that are out now. That product line sure did take off like a rocket.

There's an old roland PM-3 on cl right now for $200. The idea of speakers up on my drumset with the band/drum mix seems like it would work. I can get something nicer later. for now I want to enhance the PA with a sub for our first gig and go from there.

TY again! :codger:

 

 

I'm glad you reconsidered my suggestion. The PA is the most important part of the band and you'll only sound as good as the PA. The PA doesn't need to be huge or expensive, just full and clean.

As for your monitor, I would seriously consider getting a 'powered cab'. Maybe sell your current cab, then find a used JBL or Mackie powered 15" cab (15" speaker + horn). This eliminates the need to carry power amps around, which sucks. Using your current monitor cab (with power amp) as a sub for the PA won't work right because the cabinet needs to be crossed over ( 140hz or below for sub frequencies) and this requires additional gear. If you can't get a powered cab for your monitor, then buy a mid-priced Crown Amp that has a power rating slightly above the rating of that cabinet. Meaning, if the cab is rated at 400 watts, get an amp rated at least 450 watts or more. Crown makes the best power, don't think otherwise.

As for a PA sub cab...JBL, EV and Mackie all make great powered 18" subs. Adding just 1 sub to your current PA will do wonders for the mix.

My entire PA, including monitors, is self powered and modular. It's literally 'plug and play' and makes set up so easy. It sets up in less than 15 minutes and doesn't require power amps or crossovers. They are all built-in to the cabs.

[the masked drummer]

My 2 cents here.... It would seem that the PA you're using is more of an issue than your personal drum monitor. If you're willing to spend $1000 then why not upgrade the PA? If you're relying on your drum monitor to project the entire drum mix on it's own (to the room), that is unrealistic, and you'll never get the thump or fullness needed. You would have to be so loud on stage to get that sound out to the room, and you don't want that. A 'monitor' is exactly what it is, a personal monitor to hear yourself and the other instruments/vocals.

Running everything (all instruments) through the PA is the preferred way to go, even in small venues. But at a minimum you always need to run vocals and drums through the PA. At least kick and snare that is. So upgrading the PA to at least 2 - powered tops, and 2 - powered subs would be the best solution for the entire band. This way the band can keep the stage volume down, let the PA do the work, and you won't need tons of monitor for yourself. Make sense?

I know this probably isn't the answer you wanted, but I can assure you it's the better way to approach this, in the big picture.

 

Launchpad, I have to thank you again for taking the time to put your two cents in here. Things are rolling now with the band. We're getting ready for a Summer full of festivals around SE MI, so come to find out our bassist had an EV active sub. So he brought it over and I brought my module and triggered kick and snare. My guitarist, who I was paranoid would be skeptical, like the new sound so much he already wants to buy an additional sub for @ss-kicking insurance.

I am pleasantly surprised how much better we sound and the drums sound great with just those two trigs off my Simmons Multipad thingy, and you saved me lots of aggravation and MONEY, my friend. Expect a gift coming to you in some form soon...