Stumbling around in politics.. The bridge, The middle eight, and ABACAB

[lerxt1990]

Hello musician type people. Weirdos like me that hang out in Politics a lot have the following questions that, speaking for myself, am stumbling to answer.

 

1. ABACAB, Genesis song, the meaning of ABACAB is? I always thought a chord progression, but its been said an older version of song chord progression, but Mike Rutherford was allegedly quoted as saying it referred to parts of the song, including the bridge.

 

2. What is the difference between the "middle eight" and the "bridge"? Is a middle eight just one kind of a bridge?

 

3. Can this all be discussed in Rush terms?

 

4. Is Alex really Gub?

 

Thanks in advance for your indulgence.

[JARG]

Hello musician type people. Weirdos like me that hang out in Politics a lot have the following questions that, speaking for myself, am stumbling to answer.

 

1. ABACAB, Genesis song, the meaning of ABACAB is? I always thought a chord progression, but its been said an older version of song chord progression, but Mike Rutherford was allegedly quoted as saying it referred to parts of the song, including the bridge.

 

2. What is the difference between the "middle eight" and the "bridge"? Is a middle eight just one kind of a bridge?

 

3. Can this all be discussed in Rush terms?

 

4. Is Alex really Gub?

 

Thanks in advance for your indulgence.

 

Extra likes for that one! That appeared in one of those "For Whom The Bus Rolls" newsletters that Peart used to write, yes?

[lerxt1990]

Hello musician type people. Weirdos like me that hang out in Politics a lot have the following questions that, speaking for myself, am stumbling to answer.

 

1. ABACAB, Genesis song, the meaning of ABACAB is? I always thought a chord progression, but its been said an older version of song chord progression, but Mike Rutherford was allegedly quoted as saying it referred to parts of the song, including the bridge.

 

2. What is the difference between the "middle eight" and the "bridge"? Is a middle eight just one kind of a bridge?

 

3. Can this all be discussed in Rush terms?

 

4. Is Alex really Gub?

 

Thanks in advance for your indulgence.

 

Extra likes for that one! That appeared in one of those "For Whom The Bus Rolls" newsletters that Peart used to write, yes?

 

YES! I had to look it up.. original mention MP tourbook? "Perhaps it is true that in a synergistic way the output does add up to all of that input, perhaps it is all in there for the discerning listener to experience, maybe Time travels backward at the speed of light, maybe Alex Lifeson is 'Gub,' maybe...

Why are you asking me all these questions?"

[Lucas]

While there are no rules to writing songs, there is a formula ( for lack of a better term ) that creates a good flow and makes for a good pop song ..

 

You've got your intro ( which can be reprised as the chorus, with you're title sung on top ), the intro leads into the verse, and from there you can go into a prechorus, or straight into your chorus ..

 

In the case of ABACAB, here's a quote from Mike Rutherford:

 

"There were three bits of music in 'Abacab', and we referred to them as 'section a', 'section b', and 'section c'... and at different times, they were in different order. We'd start with 'section a' and then have 'section c'... and at one point in time, it spelled Abacab. On the final version, it's not that at all, it's like 'Accaabbaac' "

 

A perfect example of song structure is Cinderella's "Don't Know What You've Got ('till It's Gone)"

 

Here's the classic Intro-Verse-PreChorus-Chorus pattern, with the "middle eight" coming in at 3:25 bridging the chorus and the guitar solo ... This middle eight is used only once in the song ..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWrePtBPaeE

 

 

Some Rush song adhere to this basic pattern - Subdivisions, for example ... It is all fluid though, with pieces of songs arranged according to the flow ... This is where a good producer can really help

[Lucas]

.. and I think Virgil Starkwell is more considered Gub than Alex

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UHOgkDbVqc

[JARG]

While there are no rules to writing songs, there is a formula ( for lack of a better term ) that creates a good flow and makes for a good pop song ..

 

You've got your intro ( which can be reprised as the chorus, with you're title sung on top ), the intro leads into the verse, and from there you can go into a prechorus, or straight into your chorus ..

 

In the case of ABACAB, here's a quote from Mike Rutherford:

 

"There were three bits of music in 'Abacab', and we referred to them as 'section a', 'section b', and 'section c'... and at different times, they were in different order. We'd start with 'section a' and then have 'section c'... and at one point in time, it spelled Abacab. On the final version, it's not that at all, it's like 'Accaabbaac' "

 

A perfect example of song structure is Cinderella's "Don't Know What You've Got ('till It's Gone)"

 

Here's the classic Intro-Verse-PreChorus-Chorus pattern, with the "middle eight" coming in at 3:25 bridging the chorus and the guitar solo ... This middle eight is used only once in the song ..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWrePtBPaeE

 

 

Some Rush song adhere to this basic pattern - Subdivisions, for example ... It is all fluid though, with pieces of songs arranged according to the flow ... This is where a good producer can really help

So a middle 8 is an 8 measure bridge?

[Lucas]

While there are no rules to writing songs, there is a formula ( for lack of a better term ) that creates a good flow and makes for a good pop song ..

 

You've got your intro ( which can be reprised as the chorus, with you're title sung on top ), the intro leads into the verse, and from there you can go into a prechorus, or straight into your chorus ..

 

In the case of ABACAB, here's a quote from Mike Rutherford:

 

"There were three bits of music in 'Abacab', and we referred to them as 'section a', 'section b', and 'section c'... and at different times, they were in different order. We'd start with 'section a' and then have 'section c'... and at one point in time, it spelled Abacab. On the final version, it's not that at all, it's like 'Accaabbaac' "

 

A perfect example of song structure is Cinderella's "Don't Know What You've Got ('till It's Gone)"

 

Here's the classic Intro-Verse-PreChorus-Chorus pattern, with the "middle eight" coming in at 3:25 bridging the chorus and the guitar solo ... This middle eight is used only once in the song ..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWrePtBPaeE

 

 

Some Rush song adhere to this basic pattern - Subdivisions, for example ... It is all fluid though, with pieces of songs arranged according to the flow ... This is where a good producer can really help

So a middle 8 is an 8 measure bridge?

 

In general, yes .... but it can vary, as some songs will extend it longer - for example, I think the section in Bruce's Born To Run after the sax solo could be considered the middle 8, even though it is longer ( ... "beyond The Palace, Hemi powered drones . . . " )

 

 

.

 

.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Lucas

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

The term middle 8 comes from old song structure where composers would create 8 bars that differed from the main A and B sections (verse and chorus) generally stuck in the middle. Especially with songs referred to as "standards" which generally have similar structure. There are many songs where the guitar solo is the middle 8.

 

A middle 8 can be a bridge, but a bridge can be as short as one bar. A bridge connects two pieces/sections: A to A, A to B, B to C, A to C, etc. a middle eight is not generally repeated but bridges can be.

 

If we look at a song like Please Please Me by the Beatles we can see both bridges and a middle 8:

Intro

Verse

"Last night I said these words to my girl..."

Bridge (call & response)

"Come on (come on)..."

Chorus (intro restatement)

"Please please me whoa yeah..."

Verse

"You don't need me to show the way, love..."

Bridge

"Come on (come on)..."

Chorus (intro restatement)

"Please please me whoa yeah..."

Middle 8

"I don't want to sound complaining..."

Chorus outro (intro restatement)

"Please please me whoa yeah..."

 

The riff that starts the bridge is also a bridge technically.

[lerxt1990]

Excellent, thanks everyone!!