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Vapor Trail's production was actually good


AnEggplant
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Vapor Trails-great album.

One thing that struck me about the Loudness Wars is that most albums were destroyed at the mastering desk whilst Vapor Trails was ruined by the recording process.

And rushgoober was a childish troll/bully. But there are other pricks here still.

 

This forum idolizes bullies.

"Idolizes"? That's one hell of an interpretation...er, exaggeration.

Goobs isn't here to defend himself. I understand the "childish" critique but "troll/bully" I don't. Ah well, that's another interpretation.

 

Goobs is a sensitive soul and to suggest he was a bully is ridiculous at best and probably libellous at worst.

 

 

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Oh sheesh, I never meant for this thread to get so heated. :(

 

It's not and you did.

 

You're saying I meant for this to get heated. Please, just stop. I don't know if you're trolling or what but it's getting ridiculous.

 

Says "AnEggplant".

 

At this point I really don't know if you're serious or not...

 

Ad hominem isn't an argument. It doesn't make my points any less valid. You need to chill out, seriously.

 

"Vapor Trail's production was actually good."

 

You actually wrote that.

What a remarkably asinine opinion to hold.

 

In your opinion.

 

You can't even argue with real arguments anymore. Personal attacks are not good arguments.

Not just my opinion but the band's opinion too.

 

You'd have to be completely crackers to believe that Vapor Trails' production is " good" by any reasonable measure.

 

This is just plain silly.

 

And that isn't a provable fact, just your opinion!

 

 

 

I hate to throw a wrench into the works, but actually it is provable. All you have to do is look at it on any sort of music editing software and you can see how much clipping there is on the original release. That's just incredibly bad mastering and mixing.

 

I know it's bad on a technical level, but I think it suits the music. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

Well you said it wasn't provable, so I was just saying it is.

 

From an objective, technical point of view, yes it is.

 

From a subjective point of view, no it's not. Also it isn't a provable fact that I'm "complete crackers" for liking Vapor Trails production.

 

You said "Vapor Trails production was actually good."

 

Either you were trolling or you are an idiot. There is no other conclusion to be had.

 

Chill. I explained myself further, that I thought it fit the music. I know I said that, but by 'good' I meant 'fit the music'.

 

And the backtrack begins...

 

 

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Because it was broken. You wouldn't accept a picture with a hole in it from Amazon, why accept a faulty CD and then praise its merits.

 

Weird analogy. I suppose I must have defective when I was able to listen to the album and enjoy it in spite of the digital clipping (which I only noticed in a few places). No different from listening to and enjoying all of those scratched LP records I had when I was a kid. You lived with the scratches because you dug the music.

 

If you bought it new and it was scratched you would return it.

 

Sure. And if it got scratched from wear and tear, I would still listen to it. It wouldn't bother me, just like I wasn't bothered when listening to Vapor Trails even though it had a defective mix. There must be something wrong with me (just saving you the trouble, Tony).

 

Eggplant, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but are you not simply making a subjective claim that the raw energy of Vapor Trails might in fact, to some folks anyway, be reinforced in some way by the rough sound of the overall mix? That, in effect, for folks like you, that can actually be a "good" thing, even if it's completely subjective opinion and contradicts the majority opinion by the audiophile experts that it's a crappy mix? Something like that? Anyway, I'm cool with that.

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Because it was broken. You wouldn't accept a picture with a hole in it from Amazon, why accept a faulty CD and then praise its merits.

 

Weird analogy. I suppose I must have defective when I was able to listen to the album and enjoy it in spite of the digital clipping (which I only noticed in a few places). No different from listening to and enjoying all of those scratched LP records I had when I was a kid. You lived with the scratches because you dug the music.

 

If you bought it new and it was scratched you would return it.

 

Sure. And if it got scratched from wear and tear, I would still listen to it. It wouldn't bother me, just like I wasn't bothered when listening to Vapor Trails even though it had a defective mix. There must be something wrong with me (just saving you the trouble, Tony).

 

Eggplant, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but are you not simply making a subjective claim that the raw energy of Vapor Trails might in fact, to some folks anyway, be reinforced in some way by the rough sound of the overall mix? That, in effect, for folks like you, that can actually be a "good" thing, even if it's completely subjective opinion and contradicts the majority opinion by the audiophile experts that it's a crappy mix? Something like that? Anyway, I'm cool with that.

 

Yes. I'm saying that IN MY OPINION I think the rough production of Vapor Trails fits and enhances the music.

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Because it was broken. You wouldn't accept a picture with a hole in it from Amazon, why accept a faulty CD and then praise its merits.

 

Weird analogy. I suppose I must have defective when I was able to listen to the album and enjoy it in spite of the digital clipping (which I only noticed in a few places). No different from listening to and enjoying all of those scratched LP records I had when I was a kid. You lived with the scratches because you dug the music.

 

If you bought it new and it was scratched you would return it.

 

 

 

Eggplant, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but are you not simply making a subjective claim that the raw energy of Vapor Trails might in fact, to some folks anyway, be reinforced in some way by the rough sound of the overall mix? That, in effect, for folks like you, that can actually be a "good" thing, even if it's completely subjective opinion and contradicts the majority opinion by the audiophile experts that it's a crappy mix? Something like that? Anyway, I'm cool with that.

 

Yeah, I got that straight away. I'm bored and just wanted to be a dick about it.

 

Carry on. :)

 

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Vapor Trails-great album.

One thing that struck me about the Loudness Wars is that most albums were destroyed at the mastering desk whilst Vapor Trails was ruined by the recording process.

And rushgoober was a childish troll/bully. But there are other pricks here still.

 

This forum idolizes bullies.

"Idolizes"? That's one hell of an interpretation...er, exaggeration.

Goobs isn't here to defend himself. I understand the "childish" critique but "troll/bully" I don't. Ah well, that's another interpretation.

 

Goobs is a sensitive soul and to suggest he was a bully is ridiculous at best and probably libellous at worst.

 

Yeah rushgoober is far from a bully. One of the more more funny and creative characters here at trf. Hope he is well.

 

That said its aamazing this topic is still generating this level of animosity....

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Vapor Trails-great album.

One thing that struck me about the Loudness Wars is that most albums were destroyed at the mastering desk whilst Vapor Trails was ruined by the recording process.

And rushgoober was a childish troll/bully. But there are other pricks here still.

 

This forum idolizes bullies.

"Idolizes"? That's one hell of an interpretation...er, exaggeration.

Goobs isn't here to defend himself. I understand the "childish" critique but "troll/bully" I don't. Ah well, that's another interpretation.

 

Goobs is a sensitive soul and to suggest he was a bully is ridiculous at best and probably libellous at worst.

Yeah, I agree. I said in this thread yesterday that I thought he could be a bit too sensitive at times but "bully" is a tag I'd never associate with him.

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Because it was broken. You wouldn't accept a picture with a hole in it from Amazon, why accept a faulty CD and then praise its merits.

 

Weird analogy. I suppose I must have defective when I was able to listen to the album and enjoy it in spite of the digital clipping (which I only noticed in a few places). No different from listening to and enjoying all of those scratched LP records I had when I was a kid. You lived with the scratches because you dug the music.

 

If you bought it new and it was scratched you would return it.

 

Sure. And if it got scratched from wear and tear, I would still listen to it. It wouldn't bother me, just like I wasn't bothered when listening to Vapor Trails even though it had a defective mix. There must be something wrong with me (just saving you the trouble, Tony).

 

Eggplant, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but are you not simply making a subjective claim that the raw energy of Vapor Trails might in fact, to some folks anyway, be reinforced in some way by the rough sound of the overall mix? That, in effect, for folks like you, that can actually be a "good" thing, even if it's completely subjective opinion and contradicts the majority opinion by the audiophile experts that it's a crappy mix? Something like that? Anyway, I'm cool with that.

 

Yes. I'm saying that IN MY OPINION I think the rough production of Vapor Trails fits and enhances the music.

 

And I know that you know what an opinion is. I know that you know that stating an opinion is not some way of suggesting "what I have to say is the ultimate truth and the rest of you are wrong if you don't agree with me." I don't know why, but some people seem to be taking offense at your opinion! I don't know, man, you must be cracked if you can't see that there's something wrong with the mix of vapor trails. Oh . . . I hope that came across as an opinion . . . ?

 

Update, re: post 180: Tony . . . way to keep us guessing, man.

Edited by toymaker
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This thread motivated me to play the entire "Hold Your Fire" album all the way through on the drums! Thanks! I know many of you hate this record. Rush fans have written on these wall how much they hate "Tai Shan" and "High Water" thousands of times. My God you guys probably aren't drummers who hate those two songs. They are fun and very challenging to play on the kit. My point is we all have different tastes even though we all love the same band. I would never even waste a red hot second playing to the "Vapor Trails" album! Jesus, I would fall asleep of pure boredom![/

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Oh sheesh, I never meant for this thread to get so heated. :(

 

It's not and you did.

 

You're saying I meant for this to get heated. Please, just stop. I don't know if you're trolling or what but it's getting ridiculous.

 

Says "AnEggplant".

 

At this point I really don't know if you're serious or not...

 

Ad hominem isn't an argument. It doesn't make my points any less valid. You need to chill out, seriously.

 

"Vapor Trail's production was actually good."

 

You actually wrote that.

What a remarkably asinine opinion to hold.

 

In your opinion.

 

You can't even argue with real arguments anymore. Personal attacks are not good arguments.

Not just my opinion but the band's opinion too.

 

You'd have to be completely crackers to believe that Vapor Trails' production is " good" by any reasonable measure.

 

This is just plain silly.

 

And that isn't a provable fact, just your opinion!

 

 

 

I hate to throw a wrench into the works, but actually it is provable. All you have to do is look at it on any sort of music editing software and you can see how much clipping there is on the original release. That's just incredibly bad mastering and mixing.

 

I know it's bad on a technical level, but I think it suits the music. That's what I'm trying to say.

 

Well you said it wasn't provable, so I was just saying it is.

 

From an objective, technical point of view, yes it is.

 

From a subjective point of view, no it's not. Also it isn't a provable fact that I'm "complete crackers" for liking Vapor Trails production.

 

No of course not. Liking something is one thing, but saying the production wasn't that bad just isn't true. That part of it IS provable.

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Vapor Trails-great album.

One thing that struck me about the Loudness Wars is that most albums were destroyed at the mastering desk whilst Vapor Trails was ruined by the recording process.

And rushgoober was a childish troll/bully. But there are other pricks here still.

 

This forum idolizes bullies.

"Idolizes"? That's one hell of an interpretation...er, exaggeration.

Goobs isn't here to defend himself. I understand the "childish" critique but "troll/bully" I don't. Ah well, that's another interpretation.

 

Goobs is a sensitive soul and to suggest he was a bully is ridiculous at best and probably libellous at worst.

 

Yeah rushgoober is far from a bully. One of the more more funny and creative characters here at trf. Hope he is well.

 

That said its aamazing this topic is still generating this level of animosity....

Tangy, boredom generates more than you might think.

And I just had an unrelated flashback: your sn used to be "tangdog" and there used to be a weird looking dog as your avatar. It must've been goob's interdimensional vortex powers causing these memories to flood back.

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Vapor Trails-great album.

One thing that struck me about the Loudness Wars is that most albums were destroyed at the mastering desk whilst Vapor Trails was ruined by the recording process.

And rushgoober was a childish troll/bully. But there are other pricks here still.

 

This forum idolizes bullies.

"Idolizes"? That's one hell of an interpretation...er, exaggeration.

Goobs isn't here to defend himself. I understand the "childish" critique but "troll/bully" I don't. Ah well, that's another interpretation.

 

Goobs is a sensitive soul and to suggest he was a bully is ridiculous at best and probably libellous at worst.

 

Yeah rushgoober is far from a bully. One of the more more funny and creative characters here at trf. Hope he is well.

 

That said its aamazing this topic is still generating this level of animosity....

I totally miss Rushgoober! We kept in contact for awhile away from the forum. A great guy who will be missed. I loved his radio shows. He brought a lot of musical knowledge to this Forum. He was an asset here on this forum. Great family guy too. I have no idea why he left. Bullying?
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This thread motivated me to play the entire "Hold Your Fire" album all the way through on the drums! Thanks! I know many of you hate this record. Rush fans have written on these wall how much they hate "Tai Shan" and "High Water" thousands of times. My God you guys probably aren't drummers who hate those two songs. They are fun and very challenging to play on the kit. My point is we all have different tastes even though we all love the same band. I would never even waste a red hot second playing to the "Vapor Trails" album! Jesus, I would fall asleep of pure boredom![/

I DIDN'T recognize YOU withOUT the CAPITALS!!! ;)

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I've just drowned some puppies whilst stealing candy from a baby.

I knew it! ...though I did think it was puppies AND kittens and TWO babies.

 

You think I'm that cracked?

 

I'm more f***ed up than Vapor Trails' production...

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Vapor Trails-great album.

One thing that struck me about the Loudness Wars is that most albums were destroyed at the mastering desk whilst Vapor Trails was ruined by the recording process.

And rushgoober was a childish troll/bully. But there are other pricks here still.

 

This forum idolizes bullies.

"Idolizes"? That's one hell of an interpretation...er, exaggeration.

Goobs isn't here to defend himself. I understand the "childish" critique but "troll/bully" I don't. Ah well, that's another interpretation.

 

Goobs is a sensitive soul and to suggest he was a bully is ridiculous at best and probably libellous at worst.

 

Yeah rushgoober is far from a bully. One of the more more funny and creative characters here at trf. Hope he is well.

 

That said its aamazing this topic is still generating this level of animosity....

I totally miss Rushgoober! We kept in contact for awhile away from the forum. A great guy who will be missed. I loved his radio shows. He brought a lot of musical knowledge to this Forum. He was an asset here on this forum. Great family guy too. I have no idea why he left. Bullying?

 

Hopefully he has better things to do with his time!

 

I doudt it was bullying but for awhile ( and maybe still to this day) bad vibes were permeating from the political forum into the main forum.

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As much as Tony R would like to change our opinions, we still like what we like, so game over.

 

I'm not trying to change opinions just highlight how many Rush fans are complete morons whilst somehow believing that their love of Rush somehow suggests they have a higher intellect than the average. It's very noble eking enjoyment out of a broken product but it's ultimately pointless.

 

Tony. You are a real piece of work man.

 

Thanks Dad.

 

Oh, you meant...

 

Ah well, if you've only just realised then maybe my post applies to you... ;)

 

Oh it's been long evident. This is only the first time I mentioned it.

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Thanks a lot you goofy Rush addicts! I was going to take six months off from listening to Rush! Now thanks to this thread I have played along to "Hold Your Fire" and now "Grace Under Pressure!" I am wound up like a top!!!! You see I don't need drugs to be a spazmanian devil! I just need my drums!!! Playing "Red Lenses" and then going right into "Between The Wheels" is just perfect for me. "Between The Wheels" is one of the greatest songs in the world to play too. I feel invincible. Ok now back to "Vapor Trails" drama!
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All I was trying to say was that I think Vapor Trail's production suits the music well. That's it. I know I said some dumb things here that I regret, but I'd like to think I wasn't the only one at fault here. I apologize if I offended anyone and I'll be leaving this thread now.
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As much as Tony R would like to change our opinions, we still like what we like, so game over.

 

I'm not trying to change opinions just highlight how many Rush fans are complete morons whilst somehow believing that their love of Rush somehow suggests they have a higher intellect than the average. It's very noble eking enjoyment out of a broken product but it's ultimately pointless.

 

wait, i thought you said it wasn't noble?

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I could believe it was an "artistic decision"... if it hadn't happened at the same time that EVERYTHING was using that shitty style of mixing.

 

Vapor Trails is still my favorite Rush album though, warts and all.

 

I don't think it was intentional either, but I still think it works quite well.

 

If you don't have ears. LOL The remix is way better than the original. I love volume, distortion, and heaviness, but I don't like my speakers cracking and popping and player melting down because everything is red-lining into one big wall of mess. No separation to be found. Ugh! I also don't think Bottrill took too many liberties. I love the little things he brought out that wasn't there before.

 

There are also things from the original mix that have now disappeared. And Out Of The Cradle sounds completely nuetered. Freeze is an improvement however.

 

So it's a mixed bag for me I guess.

 

 

Well....Out of The Cradle is the worst song on VT... so no big loss there....haha!

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All I was trying to say was that I think Vapor Trail's production suits the music well. That's it. I know I said some dumb things here that I regret, but I'd like to think I wasn't the only one at fault here. I apologize if I offended anyone and I'll be leaving this thread now.

Nothing offensive from you. Nothing to apologize for. Some people disagree with some of what you said, some agree. Usual

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Was this meant to be posted in the unpopular opinions thread??

 

I personally love VT and never have found the production to be an issue

 

But it is. It's broken.

 

It is an issue for you. For others, it isn't. Get over it.

 

That's just plain daft.

The album has been remixed because the band knew it was a car crash recording-wise, that is well documented. I remember reading Lee say it needed fixing.

You going to say "get over it" to the band you f***ing clown?

 

Lee came to this realization not long after the record came out, but there was little he could do to fix the situation. "It's a terrible feeling that, due to lack of objectivity, you let an imperfect piece of work get out there," he says.

 

Chris: Are you aware of there being a precedent for something like this, where a band and their fans express enough unhappiness with the sonics of a record to take the time and re-do it?

 

David: I think this is a pretty unique situation, but it does speak volumes as to how much the band care about their fans and want them to be satisfied. I also think that they themselves were not as happy with the final result as they could have been. These are great songs and I was just trying to help them realize them as they would have wanted at the time. Everyone has to remember that it was a very stressful time for the band and it’s really a tribute to their resilience that they were able to continue as a band at all.

 

Can I just say that I've never heard the remix and, to be honest I don't particularly want to.

 

Even if Geddy Lee said that it was a bad album that doesn't mean everybody has to think it's a bad album (in production terms). I really like live recordings. They don't sound particularly great but they're still one of my favourite things to listen to/watch from a band.

 

But it's not what the band intended. It was an error.

 

.

Edited by condemned2bfree
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On occasion, when something is created, the result produced is not the intended one. For me vapor trails anomalies capture the moment, the fragility of that time along with the songs, that is my perception. The resulting material does not detract from the enjoyment i have listening to vt. Acknowledge the technical proof, the 20 20 hindsight of Mr Lee etc, people state to back their opinions, still I enjoy this album.
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