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Where do you think Rush ranks as individuals on their instruments in rock history?


Rushman2112
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As a drummer, guitarist and bassist who is knowledgeable about most of the greatest players on each instrument, i think that Geddy and Neil are definitely at the top in their categories. But since there are so many good, stand out guitarists i cant really say who is the best. But Alex is definitely my favourite.
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What goes into making a drummer so good?

(cont.)

 

So, Lorraine, Neil is famous for his use of rudiments and the very of percussion (drum) instruments he builds into his song parts. He has great complexity and "musicality" in that sense. Where Neil falls short of other drummers is in his "feel", or the way he plays those parts that he constructs. If there's one valid knock against Neil it's that he is almost always pounding on the drums. He hits them so hard that it lacks subtlety. And that pounding actually impacts the sound of the drum - or cymbal. Think of a piano being pounded on versus lightly played. There's also a question of timing. Some drummers play slightly behind the beat - intentionally - which gives a sense of swing to the rhythm. Neil is almost always driving the rhythm. This constant driving, combined with the forceful pounding, comes across as harsh. It's technical...scientific playing.

 

I think something that makes La Villa Strangiato so special is that it is a rare moment where Neil does swing. He backs off, and the variation in striking power brings emotion to the entire piece. I like Presto for that reason. On Presto, Neil's drumming has great feel, in my opinion.

 

OK...enough of that for now. Great question, Lorraine. This is fun for me.

 

Don't go yet.

 

If Neil plays without "feel" - please tell me which drummer you think does so I can listen to him to see if I can hear any difference.

 

I realize this isn't directed at me, but I will bite.

 

I'd try some of that Phil Collins stuff in the first half of the 1970s with Genesis. I hear a similar building approach to those songs but with more spontaneity (ROIOs will help with this if one wants to take it that far).

 

Neil is an excellent composer, but not the best and his approach to the drums for a lot of his career has been a bit rigid (by his choice).

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Rank them? How can I rank the band I love? No matter they're ranking against other musicians, they're number one as a unit with me.

 

:goodone:

 

Thats a huge part of my love for them as a band. Its actually quite amazing.

 

 

:rush:

Edited by troutman
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It's ridiculous to say Neil is the #1 rock drummer of all time. He's one of my very favorites in terms of style, but there are absolutely "better" drummers out there in rock.

 

Who? My question isn't meant as a challenge. I'd like to know what rock drummers you think are better than Neil.

 

Terry Bozzio

Vinnie Coliauta (calls himself a rock..in fact is more diverse)

Jojo Mayer (see Vinnie)

Mike Mangini...but not Mike Portnoy...

 

I love Neil...but saying he is the best...?...no....got over that thinking long ago.

 

It doesn't make me appreciate his work less BTW....

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Ranking musicians is always fun for the sake of discussion, but what it comes down to is how a particular musician, or band, moves you - what do they mean to you ?

 

In Alex's case, I think you can put him next to guys like Jimmy Page and even Steve Howe in that they incorporated a diverse range of musical styles and inspirations into their music - these guys were not - and are not - one trick ponies ..

 

Alex had vision beyond just the guitar, and that is a huge reason why RUSH was so interesting and put out so much quality stuff over the long haul ..

 

I never ever got the vibe from Alex that he was simply showing exercises and patterns he practiced over and over - Alex played the song, and he happened to be an excellent guitar player doing it - that, for me, it much more interesting and worthwhile than these forced, so-called "guitar heros" who jump from band to band because it is impossible for them to connect with expressing themselves emotionally ...

 

In other words, Alex never let his ego get in the way, and for that, he is a guitar hero to me

 

Geddy happens to be my all-time favorite bass player, regardless of style ... And I love Geddy's voice, as it was his voice that initially attracted me to RUSH ...

 

I loved the 1970s Neil on drums - he was creative, technical enough to really be able to carry a song yet there was a reckless aspect too - or maybe I should say "exciting" aspect ...... Somewhere down the road though, Neil tightened up way too much for my liking -

 

.

 

.

Those three guitarists are my three major influences although I have many. Of the three, Steve Howe is the hardest to play especially when he goes all jazz fusion. To me they are iconic guitarists, you can add Tony Iommi and Ritchie Blackmore, in that they are recognisable, can play a range of styles, and know when to go simple or solo away.

 

 

My Dad played the guitar, and as a kid, I began too .... Dad was into Chet Atkins, Les Paul, Wes Montgomery, Tal Farlow - and the one guy that bonded my Dad and I guitar-wise was Steve Howe ..

 

Around 1982 we got our first VHS machine, and YesSongs was the first video we bought - we would watch that tape over and over together ...

 

To this day, Steve Howe, and the guitar parts he created, do not cease to amaze me

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What goes into making a drummer so good?

(cont.)

 

So, Lorraine, Neil is famous for his use of rudiments and the very of percussion (drum) instruments he builds into his song parts. He has great complexity and "musicality" in that sense. Where Neil falls short of other drummers is in his "feel", or the way he plays those parts that he constructs. If there's one valid knock against Neil it's that he is almost always pounding on the drums. He hits them so hard that it lacks subtlety. And that pounding actually impacts the sound of the drum - or cymbal. Think of a piano being pounded on versus lightly played. There's also a question of timing. Some drummers play slightly behind the beat - intentionally - which gives a sense of swing to the rhythm. Neil is almost always driving the rhythm. This constant driving, combined with the forceful pounding, comes across as harsh. It's technical...scientific playing.

 

I think something that makes La Villa Strangiato so special is that it is a rare moment where Neil does swing. He backs off, and the variation in striking power brings emotion to the entire piece. I like Presto for that reason. On Presto, Neil's drumming has great feel, in my opinion.

 

OK...enough of that for now. Great question, Lorraine. This is fun for me.

 

Don't go yet.

 

If Neil plays without "feel" - please tell me which drummer you think does so I can listen to him to see if I can hear any difference.

 

I realize this isn't directed at me, but I will bite.

 

I'd try some of that Phil Collins stuff in the first half of the 1970s with Genesis. I hear a similar building approach to those songs but with more spontaneity (ROIOs will help with this if one wants to take it that far).

 

Neil is an excellent composer, but not the best and his approach to the drums for a lot of his career has been a bit rigid (by his choice).

Was watching Return of the Giant Hogweed yesterday, mad almost free form and spot Steve Hackett finger tapping at the beginning.
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Ranking musicians is always fun for the sake of discussion, but what it comes down to is how a particular musician, or band, moves you - what do they mean to you ?

 

In Alex's case, I think you can put him next to guys like Jimmy Page and even Steve Howe in that they incorporated a diverse range of musical styles and inspirations into their music - these guys were not - and are not - one trick ponies ..

 

Alex had vision beyond just the guitar, and that is a huge reason why RUSH was so interesting and put out so much quality stuff over the long haul ..

 

I never ever got the vibe from Alex that he was simply showing exercises and patterns he practiced over and over - Alex played the song, and he happened to be an excellent guitar player doing it - that, for me, it much more interesting and worthwhile than these forced, so-called "guitar heros" who jump from band to band because it is impossible for them to connect with expressing themselves emotionally ...

 

In other words, Alex never let his ego get in the way, and for that, he is a guitar hero to me

 

Geddy happens to be my all-time favorite bass player, regardless of style ... And I love Geddy's voice, as it was his voice that initially attracted me to RUSH ...

 

I loved the 1970s Neil on drums - he was creative, technical enough to really be able to carry a song yet there was a reckless aspect too - or maybe I should say "exciting" aspect ...... Somewhere down the road though, Neil tightened up way too much for my liking -

 

.

 

.

Those three guitarists are my three major influences although I have many. Of the three, Steve Howe is the hardest to play especially when he goes all jazz fusion. To me they are iconic guitarists, you can add Tony Iommi and Ritchie Blackmore, in that they are recognisable, can play a range of styles, and know when to go simple or solo away.

 

 

My Dad played the guitar, and as a kid, I began too .... Dad was into Chet Atkins, Les Paul, Wes Montgomery, Tal Farlow - and the one guy that bonded my Dad and I guitar-wise was Steve Howe ..

 

Around 1982 we got our first VHS machine, and YesSongs was the first video we bought - we would watch that tape over and over together ...

 

To this day, Steve Howe, and the guitar parts he created, do not cease to amaze me

Yes, the solo in Awaken is very hard, harder than any of that shredding noodling.
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Ranking is subjective. Art vs Pure ability to make flames with the instrument. I agree with what was said though about what Rush is together. If the "New Kid" doesn't have an audition all those years ago maybe we never hear of him.

 

I will side with the artistic side. I can probably walk into a guitar center and find a ton of guys who can play with as much technical prowess as many greats but they probably will never do anything with it worth listening to. I used to know a guitar player who could play any type of music from rock, to classical, to jazz. One day we were talking about a song we liked but it was so simple that a beginning musician could have made it. I don't remember the song but he said that "A great song is a great song". I was so impressed that, despite his elite level, he respected any song that was interesting and creative, regardless of the technical proficiency.

 

This is not to belittle playing ability but just to keep in mind the different elements in musical creation when trying to rank the notable names. With that I will link one of my favorite guitar pieces. The best part is the intro. It's always impressive to me when a guy can kick azz with a clean sound.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eu7ar5EKM

Edited by calirush
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Ranking is subjective. Art vs Pure ability to make flames with the instrument. I agree with what was said though about what Rush is together. If the "New Kid" doesn't have an audition all those years ago maybe we never hear of him.

 

I will side with the artistic side. I can probably walk into a guitar center and find a ton of guys who can play with as much technical prowess as many greats but they probably will never do anything with it worth listening to. I used to know a guitar player who could play any type of music from rock, to classical, to jazz. One day we were talking about a song we liked but it was so simple that a beginning musician could have made it. I don't remember the song but he said that "A great song is a great song". I was so impressed that, despite his elite level, he respected any song that was interesting and creative, regardless of the technical proficiency.

 

This is not to belittle playing ability but just to keep in mind the different elements in musical creation when trying to rank the notable names. With that I will link one of my favorite guitar pieces. The best part is the intro. It's always impressive to me when a guy can kick azz with a clean sound.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15eu7ar5EKM

Great post. People sometimes freak whe McCartney is listed as one of the great bassists, or Ringo as a great drummer. What you said here tells us why.
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It's ridiculous to say Neil is the #1 rock drummer of all time. He's one of my very favorites in terms of style, but there are absolutely "better" drummers out there in rock.

 

Who?

 

Yeah, this is where I get conflicted as well. I am a huge fan of Neil...I mean, that can't be overstated. No drummer has taught me more than Neil has - by far, period, end of story. But I wouldn't put him ahead of some of the great studio drummers like Dave Weckl, Steve Gadd, Vinne Colaiuta, etc. Steve Smith is another great example. I just like the tastefulness of their playing, and the fact that they are so versatile in that they can play with anyone for any type of music.

 

Now then, all of that said...Neil's presence and importance is still very significant. Neil is and was the right drummer for Rush, even ahead of those guys I listed above, for so many reasons. He did things for rock drumming that (in my opinion) no one had done up until that point. He truly carved his own path. For instance, I feel that Neil truly was a pioneer in the sense that he was also a percussionist - a bit of a lost art these days when it comes to rock drummers.

 

This is all just my opinion. The Rush fan in my wants to put Neil at the top, but the objective drummer in me is just astounded by the sheer ability of some of the other greats.

 

All the guys you named are more jazz/fusion drummers than rock.

Well, Steve "Machine Gun" Smith played in Journey (assuming that's the same awesome drummer Steve Smith). And he's got a great solo on Journey's live album Captured.

 

Steve Smith's early Journey solos never really impressed me, but the good news is that he was the catalyst for Neil meeting Freddy Gruber. Steve Smith ended up being a great drummer, but his work with Journey doesn't really stand out from the crowd.

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It's ridiculous to say Neil is the #1 rock drummer of all time. He's one of my very favorites in terms of style, but there are absolutely "better" drummers out there in rock.

 

Please define "better".

To give an example, I think Mike Mangini is a better drummer than Neil. I MUCH prefer Neil as a player, but Mangini's solos are just insane. He could play Neil's solo without too much trouble, and I just don't think Neil has ever been at the level that it takes to play a solo like Mangini does.

 

Mangini is a monster on drums who has everything except power. I also like Neil's creativity more within songs. Granted, Neil couldn't play large chunks of Mangini's solo, but in some cases I think the opposite would be true as well. I remember this one particular solo that Neil used to do that was a 3/4 ostinato with his feet (swiss triplet), a 9/8 pattern with his left hand, and he would solo on top of that with his right hand. I would like to see Mangini attempt that one. Not that he couldn't, I would just like to see it.

 

Another drummer that nobody has mentioned is Carter Beauford. His playing is so smooth. I have a tough time getting past Dave Matthew's vocals though.

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Ranking is subjective. Art vs Pure ability to make flames with the instrument. I agree with what was said though about what Rush is together. If the "New Kid" doesn't have an audition all those years ago maybe we never hear of him.

 

I will side with the artistic side. I can probably walk into a guitar center and find a ton of guys who can play with as much technical prowess as many greats but they probably will never do anything with it worth listening to. I used to know a guitar player who could play any type of music from rock, to classical, to jazz. One day we were talking about a song we liked but it was so simple that a beginning musician could have made it. I don't remember the song but he said that "A great song is a great song". I was so impressed that, despite his elite level, he respected any song that was interesting and creative, regardless of the technical proficiency.

 

This is not to belittle playing ability but just to keep in mind the different elements in musical creation when trying to rank the notable names. With that I will link one of my favorite guitar pieces. The best part is the intro. It's always impressive to me when a guy can kick azz with a clean sound.

 

Great post. People sometimes freak whe McCartney is listed as one of the great bassists, or Ringo as a great drummer. What you said here tells us why.

 

I understand why McCartney is listed as an important and creative bass player, but let's please leave Ringo out of this discussion. Ringo was great for the band, but not as an instrumentalist.

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Ranking is subjective. Art vs Pure ability to make flames with the instrument. I agree with what was said though about what Rush is together. If the "New Kid" doesn't have an audition all those years ago maybe we never hear of him.

 

I will side with the artistic side. I can probably walk into a guitar center and find a ton of guys who can play with as much technical prowess as many greats but they probably will never do anything with it worth listening to. I used to know a guitar player who could play any type of music from rock, to classical, to jazz. One day we were talking about a song we liked but it was so simple that a beginning musician could have made it. I don't remember the song but he said that "A great song is a great song". I was so impressed that, despite his elite level, he respected any song that was interesting and creative, regardless of the technical proficiency.

 

This is not to belittle playing ability but just to keep in mind the different elements in musical creation when trying to rank the notable names. With that I will link one of my favorite guitar pieces. The best part is the intro. It's always impressive to me when a guy can kick azz with a clean sound.

 

Great post. People sometimes freak whe McCartney is listed as one of the great bassists, or Ringo as a great drummer. What you said here tells us why.

 

I understand why McCartney is listed as an important and creative bass player, but let's please leave Ringo out of this discussion. Ringo was great for the band, but not as an instrumentalist.

 

 

Hey Ringo married Barbara Bach so he is the greatest ever. :banana:

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It's ridiculous to say Neil is the #1 rock drummer of all time. He's one of my very favorites in terms of style, but there are absolutely "better" drummers out there in rock.

 

Who?

 

Yeah, this is where I get conflicted as well. I am a huge fan of Neil...I mean, that can't be overstated. No drummer has taught me more than Neil has - by far, period, end of story. But I wouldn't put him ahead of some of the great studio drummers like Dave Weckl, Steve Gadd, Vinne Colaiuta, etc. Steve Smith is another great example. I just like the tastefulness of their playing, and the fact that they are so versatile in that they can play with anyone for any type of music.

 

Now then, all of that said...Neil's presence and importance is still very significant. Neil is and was the right drummer for Rush, even ahead of those guys I listed above, for so many reasons. He did things for rock drumming that (in my opinion) no one had done up until that point. He truly carved his own path. For instance, I feel that Neil truly was a pioneer in the sense that he was also a percussionist - a bit of a lost art these days when it comes to rock drummers.

 

This is all just my opinion. The Rush fan in my wants to put Neil at the top, but the objective drummer in me is just astounded by the sheer ability of some of the other greats.

 

All the guys you named are more jazz/fusion drummers than rock.

Well, Steve "Machine Gun" Smith played in Journey (assuming that's the same awesome drummer Steve Smith). And he's got a great solo on Journey's live album Captured.

 

Steve Smith's early Journey solos never really impressed me, but the good news is that he was the catalyst for Neil meeting Freddy Gruber. Steve Smith ended up being a great drummer, but his work with Journey doesn't really stand out from the crowd.

Agreed, but his drumming on tracks "Don't Stop Believin'" is pretty solid. Way more tricky than a guy might suspect, with that open hand pattern. And he recorded the world's greatest flam on Stone in Love...@ +/- 1:04.

 

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Ranking is subjective. Art vs Pure ability to make flames with the instrument. I agree with what was said though about what Rush is together. If the "New Kid" doesn't have an audition all those years ago maybe we never hear of him.

 

I will side with the artistic side. I can probably walk into a guitar center and find a ton of guys who can play with as much technical prowess as many greats but they probably will never do anything with it worth listening to. I used to know a guitar player who could play any type of music from rock, to classical, to jazz. One day we were talking about a song we liked but it was so simple that a beginning musician could have made it. I don't remember the song but he said that "A great song is a great song". I was so impressed that, despite his elite level, he respected any song that was interesting and creative, regardless of the technical proficiency.

 

This is not to belittle playing ability but just to keep in mind the different elements in musical creation when trying to rank the notable names. With that I will link one of my favorite guitar pieces. The best part is the intro. It's always impressive to me when a guy can kick azz with a clean sound.

 

Great post. People sometimes freak whe McCartney is listed as one of the great bassists, or Ringo as a great drummer. What you said here tells us why.

 

I understand why McCartney is listed as an important and creative bass player, but let's please leave Ringo out of this discussion. Ringo was great for the band, but not as an instrumentalist.

 

 

Hey Ringo married Barbara Bach so he is the greatest ever. :banana:

:drool:
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Ged and Neil are definitely top notch, probably top 3 for each of them (ROCK category of course).

 

Alex is so much harder to place. Sheer speed and playing wise? He's nowhere near the top. However in terms of actual musicianship he is number 1, edging out even David Gilmour. No one else has the mental capacity and technique to do what Alex does. He is the smartest guitarist to have ever played. Things like the guitar solo in Red Sector A are so far ahead of anyone else it's ridiculous. Also I'd go and say that no one else has better control and mastery over their tone.

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In my own personal ratings, all 3 are without equal because together they compose and perform the music that has brought me the most enjoyment for nearly 40 years now.

 

Are their better guitarists than Alex, I suppose technically and maybe artistically...but Alex's work brings me back to these songs month after month, year after year. Neil and Ged are superb musicians which seems to be a given but show some love for Alex as well.

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