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The Criticism of Grace Under Pressure to Hold Your Fire...


agubrizbassman
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Three of my favorite RUSH albums, But then I'm a keyboardist!

 

:codger:

 

Same here. Being a keyboardist (and Rush fan) in a Rush tribute, the 80's are my favorite era.

I feel really lucky to have been introduced to RUSH in the early 80's. Like this we were able to discover what came before and enjoy all that came after. I have no ill will towards any one of their eras.

 

:codger:

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Three of my favorite RUSH albums, But then I'm a keyboardist!

 

:codger:

 

Same here. Being a keyboardist (and Rush fan) in a Rush tribute, the 80's are my favorite era.

I feel really lucky to have been introduced to RUSH in the early 80's. Like this we were able to discover what came before and enjoy all that came after. I have no ill will towards any one of their eras.

 

:codger:

 

same. I may dislike VT and SA, but I think CA follows in the same path, only better this time round.

 

I remember not so long ago slating Power Windows...

 

oops.

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Three of my favorite RUSH albums, But then I'm a keyboardist!

 

:codger:

 

Same here. Being a keyboardist (and Rush fan) in a Rush tribute, the 80's are my favorite era.

I feel really lucky to have been introduced to RUSH in the early 80's. Like this we were able to discover what came before and enjoy all that came after. I have no ill will towards any one of their eras.

 

:codger:

 

same. I may dislike VT and SA, but I think CA follows in the same path, only better this time round.

 

I remember not so long ago slating Power Windows...

 

oops.

 

Even when VT was released I knew it had good songs in it, it just needed the tender loving touch that it just received at the mixing board.

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I just don't like the songs. None of them!

 

Snakes and Arrows is better, I simply don't return to it for whatever reason.

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Don't know what you are talking about, these days it's popular to bash the 90s material. These are all fantastic albums, and I believe that Power Windows is their greatest achievement as technical and innovative musicians.

 

im leaning towards your viewpoint, but for me AFTK to PoW is all about the same when it comes to overall greatness. They are all classics in my book! As is 2112...

 

And on the subject of the 90's, for me they were still good, but it wasn't on the same level as what had come before. HYF through to Test For Echo had a lot of great moments, but only to albums that I could call great if push came to shove...

 

The real weak period for me lasted two albums: VT through to SA. Feedback is enjoyable, but I am judging original Rush material here. I enjoyed the experimental atmosphere of both albums. But overall, I would take Test For Echo over both. For me, CA is the true return to form, the bands best since 1986.

 

So overall, I am not ojefof those fans who think p/g through to HYF is a weak period. As a new fan of the band, I admire these albums, and as far as I am concerned, nothing else sounds like Rush so nothing ever sounds truly dated!

No I like the 90s stuff too, I was just saying it seemed to be the popular decade to shun at the moment. I agree the VT/S&A albums are among their weakest (along with their really early stuff in my electronic music loving opinion), but I do find good stuff in it, just wishing it had a different sound to it at times.
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This thread's reminded me of something, does anybody find that "ooooohhhh" bit towards the end of Grand Designs really cringeworthy? I don't but I would imagine a lot of people do.

 

Oh man...I LOVE that part! Actually, at my company´s internal chat software, my name is "Rodrigo Altaf - against the run of the mill, swimming against the stream"

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I do see a lot of people not liking these three albums, now Grace Under Pressure not as much, but i do see more people criticizing Power Windows and even more Hold Your Fire, I just want to know why some don't like them.

 

Given the choice of listening to any of those three albums and listening to three albums by Britney Spears, I'd gladly choose Rush, but given the choice of listening to any of those three albums and listening to, say, Hemispheres, PeW, or MP, I'd gladly forsake p/g, PoW, and HyF. So even though I might go on record as saying I don't like those three albums, it's important to bear in mind that that is a relative statement (and I suspect that is true for others as well). Relative to some of Rush's other output, I don't much like those three albums. The reason why is because I like Rush's older, more guitar-centric, albums more.

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Don't know what you are talking about, these days it's popular to bash the 90s material. These are all fantastic albums, and I believe that Power Windows is their greatest achievement as technical and innovative musicians.

 

im leaning towards your viewpoint, but for me AFTK to PoW is all about the same when it comes to overall greatness. They are all classics in my book! As is 2112...

 

And on the subject of the 90's, for me they were still good, but it wasn't on the same level as what had come before. HYF through to Test For Echo had a lot of great moments, but only to albums that I could call great if push came to shove...

 

The real weak period for me lasted two albums: VT through to SA. Feedback is enjoyable, but I am judging original Rush material here. I enjoyed the experimental atmosphere of both albums. But overall, I would take Test For Echo over both. For me, CA is the true return to form, the bands best since 1986.

 

So overall, I am not ojefof those fans who think p/g through to HYF is a weak period. As a new fan of the band, I admire these albums, and as far as I am concerned, nothing else sounds like Rush so nothing ever sounds truly dated!

No I like the 90s stuff too, I was just saying it seemed to be the popular decade to shun at the moment. I agree the VT/S&A albums are among their weakest (along with their really early stuff in my electronic music loving opinion), but I do find good stuff in it, just wishing it had a different sound to it at times.

 

which early albums are you referring to? For me, the three pre-2112 albums lack the excitement of what cam after. Along with VT and SA, they are my least favourite.

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People don't like Hold Your Fire because it is generally considered to be the "softest" Rush album. It's lighter, more airy, more contemporary. It doesn't "rock".

 

None of these things bother me. I'm kind of a jazz guy, so I actually like the spacey, fusion-y sort of new age feel that it has. Even in the overproduced 80s it doesn't quite have the bombast that Power Windows does.

 

I'm a big fan of the deeper cuts on this album like Turn the Page, Open Secrets and Second Nature.

 

You just have to remember that this is 1987 and it's very much a production of its time. Yes, you could conceivably hear passages from this album on the Weather Channel, but is that really that bad? I like Weather Channel music too.

Edited by analog guy
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People don't like Hold Your Fire because it is generally considered to be the "softest" Rush album. It's lighter, more airy, more contemporary. It doesn't "rock".

 

None of these things bother me. I'm kind of a jazz guy, so I actually like the spacey, fusion-y sort of new age feel that it has. Even in the overproduced 80s it doesn't quite have the bombast that Power Windows does.

 

I'm a big fan of the deeper cuts on this album like Turn the Page, Open Secrets and Second Nature.

 

You just have to remember that this is 1987 and it's very much a production of its time. Yes, you could conceivably hear passages from this album on the Weather Channel, but is that really that bad? I like Weather Channel music too.

 

The only time I have ever enjoyed the Weather Channel Local on the 8's music is when they played Shine On You Crazy Diamond by Pink Floyd. I almost pooped bricks.

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... So when you compare those albums to the cluttered, fully engorged bombast of todays productions, they sound really dated to a time when music was thin and wimpy, and fake to an extent. It was RUSH staying contemporary to a time when music...well...sorta sucked.

 

Don't disagree, but the problem with those albums (PoW and HYF) is not that they sound like the music of their time, but that they sound like the bad music of their time, or poor attempts at imitating the better music of that time. There was good "new wave/alt/indie/etc" music in the mid/late '80s, like The Smiths, Pixies, U2, etc, but Rush doesn't sound like them, instead they sound like Rush doing Cindy Lauper or Mr. Mister. That's the problem for many of us who don't care for those albums.

 

That said, I no longer revile them completely, and have found some tracks I appreciate. Like the '90s albums, I consider them a mixed bag and try to appreciate the better moments while skipping over the many weak moments.

 

Edit: I didn't include Grace Under Pressure as I've always thought it was a strong album, even when it came out. Power Windows was a shock to the system (at the time), though, with the wimpy Howard Jones-esque shirtless teenager on the cover, and those pop-y synths.

Edited by Rutlefan
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... So when you compare those albums to the cluttered, fully engorged bombast of todays productions, they sound really dated to a time when music was thin and wimpy, and fake to an extent. It was RUSH staying contemporary to a time when music...well...sorta sucked.

 

Don't disagree, but the problem with those albums (PoW and HYF) is not that they sound like the music of their time, but that they sound like the bad music of their time, or poor attempts at imitating the better music of that time. There was good "new wave/alt/indie/etc" music in the mid/late '80s, like The Smiths, Pixies, U2, etc, but Rush doesn't sound like them, instead they sound like Rush doing Cindy Lauper or Mr. Mister. That's the problem for many of us who don't care for those albums.

 

Yes, well said. I grew up on hard rock and metal and in the 80s was listening to a lot of new wave (starting with Ultravox, thanks to Rush) and alternative. But never, ever did I listen to that Howard Jones/Cindy Lauper/new wave's answer to easy listening music. In fact, once I learned about it, I got really into the hard industrial music, stuff like Skinny Puppy & Front Line Assembly. It blew away the thin, wimpy, jazzy Rush.

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... So when you compare those albums to the cluttered, fully engorged bombast of todays productions, they sound really dated to a time when music was thin and wimpy, and fake to an extent. It was RUSH staying contemporary to a time when music...well...sorta sucked.

 

Don't disagree, but the problem with those albums (PoW and HYF) is not that they sound like the music of their time, but that they sound like the bad music of their time, or poor attempts at imitating the better music of that time. There was good "new wave/alt/indie/etc" music in the mid/late '80s, like The Smiths, Pixies, U2, etc, but Rush doesn't sound like them, instead they sound like Rush doing Cindy Lauper or Mr. Mister. That's the problem for many of us who don't care for those albums.

 

Yes, well said. I grew up on hard rock and metal and in the 80s was listening to a lot of new wave (starting with Ultravox, thanks to Rush) and alternative. But never, ever did I listen to that Howard Jones/Cindy Lauper/new wave's answer to easy listening music. In fact, once I learned about it, I got really into the hard industrial music, stuff like Skinny Puppy & Front Line Assembly. It blew away the thin, wimpy, jazzy Rush.

 

Yeah, my problem as well. It wasn't that I was stuck on '70s hard or progressive rock during the '80s, as I was into bands like Skinny Puppy, Joy Division, Bauhaus, Big Black, Pixies, etc in the '80s. The problem was that unlike Rush of the '70s where they were among the best of the hard rock/prog rock bands, the Rush of the mid/late '80s didn't compare at all to the bands they were ostensibly imitating.

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Actually, '84-'87 is my second favorite time period for Rush (besides '76-'82). Grace Under Pressure is an outstanding album (highlights: Distant Early Warning, Red Sector A, Between the Wheels). The mysterious, apocalyptic-type lyrics and powerful keyboard riffs are captivating.

 

Power Windows is…unique. It's definitely synth-heavy (The Big Money, Mystic Rhythms) with a sprinkle of Rush-heaviness (Middletown Dreams especially) that gives it, in my opinion, a pleasant feel, in contrast to the awesomely bleak "Grave" Under Pressure.

 

Hold Your Fire is definitely more synth-heavy than any other Rush album. Like others have said on this thread, it was Rush's best attempt at a "contemporary" album. And it worked. Force Ten, Time Stand Still, and Mission are the strongest songs on the album and still get thrown around in live setlists (F10 especially). I myself am a keyboardist and bassist, and I love playing along to Mission and, yes, Tai Shan.

 

Just my 2¢. Bash away.

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Actually, '84-'87 is my second favorite time period for Rush (besides '76-'82). Grace Under Pressure is an outstanding album (highlights: Distant Early Warning, Red Sector A, Between the Wheels). The mysterious, apocalyptic-type lyrics and powerful keyboard riffs are captivating.

 

Power Windows is…unique. It's definitely synth-heavy (The Big Money, Mystic Rhythms) with a sprinkle of Rush-heaviness (Middletown Dreams especially) that gives it, in my opinion, a pleasant feel, in contrast to the awesomely bleak "Grave" Under Pressure.

 

Hold Your Fire is definitely more synth-heavy than any other Rush album. Like others have said on this thread, it was Rush's best attempt at a "contemporary" album. And it worked. Force Ten, Time Stand Still, and Mission are the strongest songs on the album and still get thrown around in live setlists (F10 especially). I myself am a keyboardist and bassist, and I love playing along to Mission and, yes, Tai Shan.

 

Just my 2¢. Bash away.

 

well said! I agree with every single word of this!

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To be honest the CWA tour gave me an appreciation for the era... I was originally disappointed when seeing the setlist at the start of the tour, but after seeing these songs live, and represented on the DVD/BD I really enjoy alot of these tracks more than I used to... (Half of HYF is still crap though...lol)
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It took me about 15 years from my first time liking Rush to the time where I could actually sit down and enjoy the synth era. I remember listening to Chronicles, and just stopping after Subdivisions. Even now, though I like all the albums and have several songs that I absolutely adore, I still find these albums to be among the band's weakest. I particularly struggle with PoW, which has so many cheesy casio-sounds thrown in as if Geddy was just playing with a keyboard saying, "hey, what about breaking glass? That'd be cool right? What about dogs barking in tune? No? Too Much?". And while most of the first 8 albums had slow songs, those were more breaks from a heavier sound. There were great peaks and valleys in the epics themselves, but also in having a Rivendell or an Entre Nous. But the synth-era albums have fewer peaks and longer valleys.

 

Also, I find that the synth-era music is the most dated work the band has done.

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I particularly struggle with PoW, which has so many cheesy casio-sounds thrown in as if Geddy was just playing with a keyboard saying, "hey, what about breaking glass? That'd be cool right? What about dogs barking in tune? No? Too Much?".

I think it was these guys:

Synthesizer programming by Andy Richards and Jim Burgess

Additional keyboards by Andy Richards

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Personally, I really like this era. GUP was the first new release for me as a Rush fan, and at the time I listened to it non-stop. But I get why some people are not a fan of this era. But IMO this phase of their career is by no means a low point - the playing on these albums is still outstanding. Yeah, it wasn't heavy and they didn't 'rock out' like they did with, say, Hemispheres but there are still some insane arrangements on those mid to late 80's albums. I think Power Windows is outstanding and is one of my favorite Rush albums. Hold Your Fire took me a few months to warm up to in 1987, but now it's another one of my favorites. We could argue that now these albums sound dated, but putting that aside these are still amazing albums... I still listen to them regularly now.
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For me, the mid 80's albums were when the best songs were written, when melodies were allowed to flow and not compounded by overly pretentious lyrics and over dominant guitar with complex time signatures just for the hell of it.Even now I wish for a return to the days when the songs took precedent over the mess that occurs when you simply try and sing over a'jam session'
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I do see a lot of people not liking these three albums, now Grace Under Pressure not as much, but i do see more people criticizing Power Windows and even more Hold Your Fire, I just want to know why some don't like them. I quite enjoy them myself, I just bought Power Windows not long ago and I really like, Hold Your Fire is a good one too, i just want to see reasons, i think it would be interesting...

 

People don't like them because they weren't Moving Pictures.

 

The downside of creating a masterpiece -- peoples' expectations.

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I think it depends on whether or not you regard MPbas the bands defining moment. As time goes on, MP is starting to become one of my least favourite of the great albums! I prefer p/g and PeW over MP, and Signals and PoW are getting better and better with repeat plays, whilst MP just sort of stops impressing me.

 

I hate saying this, as MP introduced me to Rush and I did absolutely love it, but I think its the bands most overrated work!

 

Then again, like I said, I do think it was the perfect introduction to the band for me. It was a tasty introduction!

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They do use a lot of synth, I agree. But Hold Your Fire is probably my all time favorite album. You can actually hear the more guitar oriented sound coming back in HYF. Just the sound of it is calm yet upbeat. It's my kinda music.

 

PoW and GUP are amazing too. Then again, is there a Rush album that isn't amazing?

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Your assessment of HYF intrigues me...must play it again...need to hear those guitars...
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