Kiss finally inducted...

[bathory]

Yes should be in the Hall of Fame as they were one of the defining bands of a whole musical genre, Progressive Rock but Nirvana were the defining band of the Grunge genre. Both should be in.

Kiss are a joke to me, but I can't deny their popularity.

By that same token, aren't Kiss THE representative band of the Glam Rock genre?

 

no

[JohnnyBlaze]

Yes should be in the Hall of Fame as they were one of the defining bands of a whole musical genre, Progressive Rock but Nirvana were the defining band of the Grunge genre. Both should be in.

Kiss are a joke to me, but I can't deny their popularity.

By that same token, aren't Kiss THE representative band of the Glam Rock genre?

If you pick anyone for that you should probably pick David Bowie or T.Rex. Just because Kiss were/are theatrical doesn't equate to them being THE glam rock representatives

[ReRushed]

Yes should be in the Hall of Fame as they were one of the defining bands of a whole musical genre, Progressive Rock but Nirvana were the defining band of the Grunge genre. Both should be in.

Kiss are a joke to me, but I can't deny their popularity.

By that same token, aren't Kiss THE representative band of the Glam Rock genre?

If you pick anyone for that you should probably pick David Bowie or T.Rex. Just because Kiss were/are theatrical doesn't equate to them being THE glam rock representatives

 

There is definitely and glam rock element to Kiss. They took all the fame and popularity from the New York Dolls, while the New York Dolls took all the critical acclaim from Kiss. Paul Stanley is very satisfied.

[Xanadoood]

I've been revisiting their catalog.. And those first give albums are just good, solid hard rock albums.. If they looked like the Ramones on stage, the critics wouldn't have been so harsh.. Creatures of the Night rocks as well.. Hey, I like Kiss!!

[ReRushed]

I've been revisiting their catalog.. And those first give albums are just good, solid hard rock albums.. If they looked like the Ramones on stage, the critics wouldn't have been so harsh.. Creatures of the Night rocks as well.. Hey, I like Kiss!!

 

Kiss was serioulsy unserious. Personally, I love listening to the 1970's albums. They always put a smile on my face and make me tap my foot. And from time to time there is a legitimately great song.

[Todem]

Kiss Alive is the record to own if you are only going to have one Kiss record.

 

Their studio work pales in comparison with their live output. They have never been a studio band. Of all the studio stuff I enjoyed Destroyer, Love Gun and Creatures the best

[Rick N. Backer]

Kiss Alive is the record to own if you are only going to have one Kiss record.

 

Their studio work pales in comparison with their live output. They have never been a studio band. Of all the studio stuff I enjoyed Destroyer, Love Gun and Creatures the best

 

I prefer Kiss Alive II to be honest, because I like the songs from that era better.

[goose]

Please, should have been YES before NIRVANA.

 

You picked the worst example from that list of bands. They're not my favorite, but unlike most on the list, they're actually rock, influential, and popular.

 

I disagree. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good... and vice versa.

 

Nirvana was popular but IMO they were horrible.

 

 

Remains popular. They were/are wildly influential, and were a huge departure from what was being played. They essentially spawned a genre. That's worth recognizing.

[nappy2112]

Kiss Alive is the record to own if you are only going to have one Kiss record.

 

Their studio work pales in comparison with their live output. They have never been a studio band. Of all the studio stuff I enjoyed Destroyer, Love Gun and Creatures the best

 

Revenge was great too.

[Todem]

Kiss Alive is the record to own if you are only going to have one Kiss record.

 

Their studio work pales in comparison with their live output. They have never been a studio band. Of all the studio stuff I enjoyed Destroyer, Love Gun and Creatures the best

 

Revenge was great too.

 

Yes...that was a nice return to form as well.

 

At Rick,

 

I love Kiss Alive II as well. Fond memories as that was the first record I ever went into a store to buy. My mom was cringing as I showed her the cover and she pulled out 10 bucks for me. Imagine that. 10 bucks for four sides of Kiss, tattoos, a mini tour book...LOL awesome times 1977/78. I was a young little shit using my tennis raquet and doing Kiss concerts full blast in my living room using my moms high end system. I can still remember all of it. My baby sitter got me into Kiss when she had her boyfriend sneak over to my house. He put on Kiss Alive while he made out with her on the front porch.

 

LOL.

[Xanadoood]

Please, should have been YES before NIRVANA.

 

You picked the worst example from that list of bands. They're not my favorite, but unlike most on the list, they're actually rock, influential, and popular.

 

I disagree. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good... and vice versa.

 

Nirvana was popular but IMO they were horrible.

 

 

 

Remains popular. They were/are wildly influential, and were a huge departure from what was being played. They essentially spawned a genre. That's worth recognizing.

 

Was a complete game changer. They didnt reinvent the wheel, but came out at the perfect time. And Cobain was the real deal. I distinctly remember some guys i hung with at the time , indie rock/ punk dudes, who said his popularity wasnt going to end well..bands like Nirvana werent supposed to be mainstream.

[sitboaf]

Yes should be in the Hall of Fame as they were one of the defining bands of a whole musical genre, Progressive Rock but Nirvana were the defining band of the Grunge genre. Both should be in.

Kiss are a joke to me, but I can't deny their popularity.

By that same token, aren't Kiss THE representative band of the Glam Rock genre?

If you pick anyone for that you should probably pick David Bowie or T.Rex. Just because Kiss were/are theatrical doesn't equate to them being THE glam rock representatives

Yeah. I made an argument I don't necessarily agree with.

T-Rex had probably the most quintessential glam sound, but their stardom faded quickly. Bowie is a mega-star, but it's because he was more than glam. Kiss deserves to be in the "best glam" conversation, though they were later also metal.

And, is this where Queen lives? If so, I give them the glam crown.

Edited January 6, 2014 by sitboaf

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

You guys are funny. I am laughing at much of this discussion of who's better than who yada yada. The fact that KISS finally being indicted makes the RRHOF only a little less of a joke than it already has been.

 

Rock and Roll is from the streets and should not be a f***ing institution. It's funny because later this morning the Baseball HOF will make their announcement as to this years inductees with much ado about the PED era and all.

 

Rock and Roll is not at all like that. It is an artistic endeavor created by musicians who, by and large, play by instinct with minimal training. The best bands have the least training. It is ridiculous to stick bands into a so called institution of legitimacy. Rock and Roll is not about legitimacy. It's about sex, drugs and having a good time as loudly as possible. It's about getting the cops called and scattering. It's about packing your gear up after a gig and hoping some chicks are still around. It's about going to see your favorite band play with a few thousand people smoking weed and rushing the barrier. It's not about tuxedos and night gowns and little statues. It's about being sweaty on some meager little stage dreaming about playing the Coliseum to screaming maniacs. It's about what your parents wouldn't approve of. It's about telling the establishment to f*** off. It's guttural over technical. Which is why the best bands have little training. The best Rock and Roll is instinctual.

 

And if we truly want to add baseball like status to the RRHOF then I'm sorry but bands like ELP, Cheap Trick, Jethro Tull have no business being there. It's not a Hall of Very Good. KISS is an elite band. They changed live shows forever. Yes deserves to be in as much as Genesis and maybe some hip hop artists. In retrospect and with perspective Nirvana absolutely deserves to be in. They changed the landscape of rock/popular music. Their production is tremendous. Did I like them when they were around? Not initially but the songwriting is excellent and caught me just before Cobain decided he'd had enough of being a rock star. I feel the same about Billy Joe's stuff. But it is still arbitrary, random and ridiculous all the same. Rock is not about playing perfectly. It's about the opposite of that. Listen to Jimmy Page. There's no perfection. It's sloppy as hell, but it rocks.

Edited January 8, 2014 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[Xanadoood]

You guys are funny. I am laughing at much of this discussion of who's better than who yada yada. The fact that KISS finally being indicted makes the RRHOF only a little less of a joke than it already has been.

 

Rock and Roll is from the streets and should not be a f***ing institution. It's funny because later this morning the Baseball HOF will make their announcement as to this years inductees with much ado about the PED era and all.

 

Rock and Roll is not at all like that. It is an artistic endeavor created by musicians who, by and large, play by instinct with minimal training. The best bands have the least training. It is ridiculous to stick bands into a so called institution of legitimacy. Rock and Roll is not about legitimacy. It's about sex, drugs and having a good time as loudly as possible. It's about getting the cops called and scattering. It's about packing your gear up after a gig and hoping some chicks are still around. It's about going to see your favorite band play with a few thousand people smoking weed and rushing the barrier. It's not about tuxedos and night gowns and little statues. It's about being sweaty on some meager little stage dreaming about playing the Coliseum to screaming maniacs. It's about what your parents wouldn't approve of. It's about telling the establishment to f*** off. It's guttural over technical. Which is why the best bands have little training. The best Rock and Roll is instinctual.

 

And if we truly want to add baseball like status to the RRHOF then I'm sorry but bands like ELP, Cheap Trick, Jethro Tull have no business being there. It's not a Hall of Very Good. KISS is an elite band. They changed live shows forever. Yes deserves to be in as much as Genesis and maybe some hip hop artists. In retrospect and with perspective Nirvana absolutely deserves to be in. They changed the landscape of rock/popular music. Their production is tremendous. Did I like them when they were around? Not initially but the songwriting is excellent and caught me just before Cobain decided he'd had enough of being a rock star. I feel the same about Billy Joe's stuff. But it is still arbitrary, random and ridiculous all the same. Rock is not about playing perfectly. It's about the opposite of that. Listen to Jimmy Page. There's no perfection. It's sloppy as hell, but it rocks.

 

I agree with you about Nirvana and the culture of Rock music , but am surprised you wouldnt put ELP, Cheap Trick and Tull in elite status....whats the reason for that?..

[sitboaf]

You guys are funny. I am laughing at much of this discussion of who's better than who yada yada. The fact that KISS finally being indicted makes the RRHOF only a little less of a joke than it already has been.

 

Rock and Roll is from the streets and should not be a f***ing institution. It's funny because later this morning the Baseball HOF will make their announcement as to this years inductees with much ado about the PED era and all.

 

Rock and Roll is not at all like that. It is an artistic endeavor created by musicians who, by and large, play by instinct with minimal training. The best bands have the least training. It is ridiculous to stick bands into a so called institution of legitimacy. Rock and Roll is not about legitimacy. It's about sex, drugs and having a good time as loudly as possible. It's about getting the cops called and scattering. It's about packing your gear up after a gig and hoping some chicks are still around. It's about going to see your favorite band play with a few thousand people smoking weed and rushing the barrier. It's not about tuxedos and night gowns and little statues. It's about being sweaty on some meager little stage dreaming about playing the Coliseum to screaming maniacs. It's about what your parents wouldn't approve of. It's about telling the establishment to f*** off. It's guttural over technical. Which is why the best bands have little training. The best Rock and Roll is instinctual.

 

And if we truly want to add baseball like status to the RRHOF then I'm sorry but bands like ELP, Cheap Trick, Jethro Tull have no business being there. It's not a Hall of Very Good. KISS is an elite band. They changed live shows forever. Yes deserves to be in as much as Genesis and maybe some hip hop artists. In retrospect and with perspective Nirvana absolutely deserves to be in. They changed the landscape of rock/popular music. Their production is tremendous. Did I like them when they were around? Not initially but the songwriting is excellent and caught me just before Cobain decided he'd had enough of being a rock star. I feel the same about Billy Joe's stuff. But it is still arbitrary, random and ridiculous all the same. Rock is not about playing perfectly. It's about the opposite of that. Listen to Jimmy Page. There's no perfection. It's sloppy as hell, but it rocks.

I'm curious - why do you like Rush? Those 3 guys studied harder than anyone and were never a "let's get the cops angry" kind of band.

Seems to me that your own personal RRHoF would only include a bunch of 23-year olds who overdosed and that no one has ever heard of.

[bathory]

rock n roll isnt really "about" anything

 

dudes making music. I love getting f*cked up but getting f*cked up is not a prerequisite for rocking

[Todem]

You guys are funny. I am laughing at much of this discussion of who's better than who yada yada. The fact that KISS finally being indicted makes the RRHOF only a little less of a joke than it already has been.

 

Rock and Roll is from the streets and should not be a f***ing institution. It's funny because later this morning the Baseball HOF will make their announcement as to this years inductees with much ado about the PED era and all.

 

Rock and Roll is not at all like that. It is an artistic endeavor created by musicians who, by and large, play by instinct with minimal training. The best bands have the least training. It is ridiculous to stick bands into a so called institution of legitimacy. Rock and Roll is not about legitimacy. It's about sex, drugs and having a good time as loudly as possible. It's about getting the cops called and scattering. It's about packing your gear up after a gig and hoping some chicks are still around. It's about going to see your favorite band play with a few thousand people smoking weed and rushing the barrier. It's not about tuxedos and night gowns and little statues. It's about being sweaty on some meager little stage dreaming about playing the Coliseum to screaming maniacs. It's about what your parents wouldn't approve of. It's about telling the establishment to f*** off. It's guttural over technical. Which is why the best bands have little training. The best Rock and Roll is instinctual.

 

And if we truly want to add baseball like status to the RRHOF then I'm sorry but bands like ELP, Cheap Trick, Jethro Tull have no business being there. It's not a Hall of Very Good. KISS is an elite band. They changed live shows forever. Yes deserves to be in as much as Genesis and maybe some hip hop artists. In retrospect and with perspective Nirvana absolutely deserves to be in. They changed the landscape of rock/popular music. Their production is tremendous. Did I like them when they were around? Not initially but the songwriting is excellent and caught me just before Cobain decided he'd had enough of being a rock star. I feel the same about Billy Joe's stuff. But it is still arbitrary, random and ridiculous all the same. Rock is not about playing perfectly. It's about the opposite of that. Listen to Jimmy Page. There's no perfection. It's sloppy as hell, but it rocks.

 

Great post Cyg......Nirvana still sucks though.

 

Rock on.

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Rush is untrained (not that they didn't work hard nor hone their craft- they did not go to a school for music. There is a HUGE difference). Probably the best untrained band next to the Beatles. They play by instinct. Neil is the only one of them who can read notation. Geddy and Alex could not tell you what they are doing musically speaking. They do it naturally. When you listen to them you are hearing what comes out of them instinctually. They do not consider theoretical properties when writing. They play what comes out and it is good. They play loud and I am sure the cops shut them down on more than one occasion before they got big.

 

Dream Theater is a band that went to the Berklee College of Music and they sound like a bunch of guys who went to Berklee. If I want to listen to intellectual exercises I will listen to Bach fugues. They spent all their time learning the rules and playing properly and you can hear it.

 

The RRHOF is a sham. In baseball there are quantitative statistics that one can apply to every candidate once they are eligible. Not so for Rock and Roll unless you want to count record and ticket sales, records made, etc. but it isn't really the same is it because it's a popularity contest and not based on hard facts. It's interpretation. Much less Rock and Roll is supposed to be anti-establishment which is why a RRHOF is a joke.

 

As for the moronic statement about my personal hall would include "a bunch of 23 year olds who overdosed that nobody ever heard of..." is not only stupid on the surface it also proves that the person who wrote it cannot read. You have heard of Jimmy Page right? I used him as an example. On the contrary, my hall most certainly would not include non rock artists first of all, including Jazz and would be for Elite bands who changed the landscape. I think some people have heard of a little band called the Beatles. Not exactly overdosing 23 year olds there. There are some heinous omissions still despite the inclusion of Rush and KISS this year and last year. It's for pioneers. ELP, Jethro Tull and or Cheap Trick are very good but not exactly pioneers. ELP and Tull have written some good songs but the masses did not exactly move because of them. I love Sweet but don't think they belong either. Again, it's not a Hall of the very good but great. ELP, Tull and Cheap Trick are good. Very good. But not great. Greatness is not easy to come by. Hell, I can't stand the Rolling Stones but I can't deny that they are one of the greatest bands of all time. This is why the RRHOF is lame. There are no hard/fast quantitative qualifications for entry.

Edited January 12, 2014 by CygnusX-1Bk2

[sitboaf]

Rush is untrained (not that they didn't work hard nor hone their craft- they did not go to a school for music. There is a HUGE difference). Probably the best untrained band next to the Beatles. They play by instinct. Neil is the only one of them who can read notation. Geddy and Alex could not tell you what they are doing musically speaking. They do it naturally. When you listen to them you are hearing what comes out of them instinctually. They do not consider theoretical properties when writing. They play what comes out and it is good. They play loud and I am sure the cops shut them down on more than one occasion before they got big.

 

Dream Theater is a band that went to the Berklee College of Music and they sound like a bunch of guys who went to Berklee. If I want to listen to intellectual exercises I will listen to Bach fugues. They spent all their time learning the rules and playing properly and you can hear it.

 

The RRHOF is a sham. In baseball there are quantitative statistics that one can apply to every candidate once they are eligible. Not so for Rock and Roll unless you want to count record and ticket sales, records made, etc. but it isn't really the same is it because it's a popularity contest and not based on hard facts. It's interpretation. Much less Rock and Roll is supposed to be anti-establishment which is why a RRHOF is a joke.

 

As for the moronic statement about my personal hall would include "a bunch of 23 year olds who overdosed that nobody ever heard of..." is not only stupid on the surface it also proves that the person who wrote it cannot read. You have heard of Jimmy Page right? I used him as an example. On the contrary, my hall most certainly would not include non rock artists first of all, including Jazz and would be for Elite bands who changed the landscape. I think some people have heard of a little band called the Beatles. Not exactly overdosing 23 year olds there. There are some heinous omissions still despite the inclusion of Rush and KISS this year and last year. It's for pioneers. ELP, Jethro Tull and or Cheap Trick are very good but not exactly pioneers. ELP and Tull have written some good songs but the masses did not exactly move because of them. I love Sweet but don't think they belong either. Again, it's not a Hall of the very good but great. ELP, Tull and Cheap Trick are good. Very good. But not great. Greatness is not easy to come by. Hell, I can't stand the Rolling Stones but I can't deny that they are one of the greatest bands of all time. This is why the RRHOF is lame. There are no hard/fast quantitative qualifications for entry.

 

I'm not defending the RRHOF or a great number of the bands enshrined there.

I have written more than one post here about how awful it is.

 

Sure, my point about the 23 y.o overdosers was a stupid exaggeration, and I know you mentioned Jimmy Page. I wrote a post in this forum defending "sloppy playing" (which i think should be re-coined "loose playing", as a kinder term) in specific reference to Keith Richards, who I don't particularly enjoy, but who is admittedly a rock god.

 

I guess the main disconnect that I had with your post was in the "untrained/trained" part. I generally have no idea if Rush or any other notable band has or has not gone to music school. I can't hear it in the playing, and I'm fairly certain most other rock fans can't hear it, either. In fact, I never consider "music school training" at all when I'm deciding whether I like a band or not. I just like a band or I don't. I'm certainly not going to stop liking one of my favorite bands because I found out they went to Berklee.

 

If your own personal version of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame dictates that it should be for "great bands" that are also "pioneers" (your words), then I say this:

1. Hooray! I have no problem with that. Your rules would produce a much better RRHOF than the one we have now.

2. I'm guessing most or all of those great pioneers would be from "untrained bands"

3. Most of us can't hear the difference between a "trained" band and an "untrained" one.

 

Also, I appreciate that I actually learned some stuff by reading your response. And although I didn't agree with your original post, I understand it much better now.

 

Finally, i'd like to thank my caretaker for writing this post for me. As you have gently pointed out to TRF, I am both moronic and illiterate.

Edited January 13, 2014 by sitboaf

[CygnusX-1Bk2]

Touché! I only said that line was moronic. ;) And there wasn't much gentle about it.

 

My rules apply only to me. I do appreciate the intelligent follow up!