Why the hate on Test For Echo?

[LedRush]

maybe I'm a little late on this but to the people who keep acting like counterparts is the heaviest thing in the world - are you people crazy? "sludgy" "muddy"? it's pretty clean rock stuff to me, it's just heavier in comparison to the albums that came right before it

 

My theory on why hardcore Rush fans don't hate Counterparts has relied on this idea for a long time...people wanted the guitar and this was the first album since MP to feature it and bury the synths. But the lyrics on CP are so incredibly horrible, and the songwriting uninspiring, that good production and sounds can't save it for me. T4E did a lot of what CP did, except it had fun and brought in good songs.

[LedRush]

well, for the older folks here, I guess "stick it out" probably sounds like death metal if the heaviest music you've heard is, I dunno, dokken or something

 

To me it sounds like death, but not death metal.

[GeddysMullet]

well, for the older folks here, I guess "stick it out" probably sounds like death metal if the heaviest music you've heard is, I dunno, dokken or something

 

To me it sounds like death, but not death metal.

 

:rfl: :rfl: :rfl:

 

That's an awful song. Even the live version failed to redeem it.

[LedRush]

well, for the older folks here, I guess "stick it out" probably sounds like death metal if the heaviest music you've heard is, I dunno, dokken or something

 

To me it sounds like death, but not death metal.

 

:rfl: :rfl: :rfl:

 

That's an awful song. Even the live version failed to redeem it.

 

And even though the lyrics aren't dependent on relationships (a topic which isn't Neil's strength), Neil still writes some of his worst lyrics. He's trying to be cute with word play, but unlike on Anagram for Mongo or Dog Years, the song isn't playful so the attempt feels strange...and not in a good way. It's just one of the band's worst songs on their worst album. But it had a guitar in it so a segment of Rush fans ate the shit sandwich and called it caviar.

[ZachenFoot]

Stick It Out is unbelievably bad. Animate is one of their best album openers ever, and the momentum is totally killed with that sludgy disaster.

 

I maintain that Alien Shore is criminally underrated, and it's a shame that it's tucked away next to Between Sun & Moon and Speed of Love. Blech.

[puffyshirt]

It's times like this when it's worth listening to people who aren't die hard Rush fans like us, and instead just know good music. It's safe to say that anyone who is exposed to Rush's classic albums, and then exposed to this, will call out T4E as a pretty weak entry. There are a lot of people here (myself included) who are more than a bit defensive when it comes to Rush. But I mean, come on guys. Just take a step back and listen to this album compared to what you know they're capable of. It's forgetful, lacking in great melodies, doesn't have many true shining musicianship moments.

 

Every band has this album. Hell, most bands have a LOT of these albums, so for Rush to only have one or two (depending on your opinion) is pretty amazing.. AC/DC has put out classics like Highway to Hell and Back In Black, but they also put out Ballbreaker and Blow Up Your Video, and very few people are going to those two when they are hankering for some Angus Young. The lesser albums have merit, for sure, but it's hard to imagine why anyone would go to an album like Ballbreaker (or Test For Echo), unless you're just burned out on all the superior music.

 

Test For Echo is fine, but it seems a bit naive (and oddly flippant to classics like MP and Hemispheres) to not at least admit it's a bit weak.

[Cyclonus X-1]

Thank God someone said CP doesn't sound like grunge.

 

Can anyone imagine Alice in Chains doing "Everyday Glory?" Sheesh. CP is way too clean.

 

A few things...

 

1) Nevermind is one of the cleanest rock records out there. Compare live versions of Lithium, Come As You Are, etc., to the renditions that were released on that album. Saying CP is "clean" means nothing unless you're about to assert that a band like Nirvana shouldn't be classified as grunge either.

 

2) If you think that grunge bands stuck to delivering hard, dirty rock songs, you're very much mistaken. That was the same era that gave us All Apologies, Black, No Excuses, and many other such tunes. It wasn't all Them Bones and Man in the Box.

 

3) Even people in this thread who have called CP and TfE "grungy" have stated that not everything on those records qualifies. Pulling out the odd Everyday Glory or Resist doesn't contradict what people have said.

 

4) The members of Rush themselves have said they enjoyed grunge bands like Nirvana (whom they even asked to open for them) and did not deny that grunge music influenced their own when participating in interviews during the Counterparts period.

[Lerxster]

Lots of people like TFE, me included. Everyone who hates it has chimed in. Can I count them all on one hand or two?

[hammerofthor]

To me, it is their most listenable album since HYF.

[ZachenFoot]

Thank God someone said CP doesn't sound like grunge.

 

Can anyone imagine Alice in Chains doing "Everyday Glory?" Sheesh. CP is way too clean.

 

A few things...

 

1) Nevermind is one of the cleanest rock records out there. Compare live versions of Lithium, Come As You Are, etc., to the renditions that were released on that album. Saying CP is "clean" means nothing unless you're about to assert that a band like Nirvana shouldn't be classified as grunge either.

 

2) If you think that grunge bands stuck to delivering hard, dirty rock songs, you're very much mistaken. That was the same era that gave us All Apologies, Black, No Excuses, and many other such tunes. It wasn't all Them Bones and Man in the Box.

 

3) Even people in this thread who have called CP and TfE "grungy" have stated that not everything on those records qualifies. Pulling out the odd Everyday Glory or Resist doesn't contradict what people have said.

 

4) The members of Rush themselves have said they enjoyed grunge bands like Nirvana (whom they even asked to open for them) and did not deny that grunge music influenced their own when participating in interviews during the Counterparts period.

 

I don't think Nirvana should be classified as grunge, but that's another story.

 

Even CP at its heaviest doesn't represent grunge. And even grunge at its softest isn't as soft as song like Everyday Glory.

 

I'm a huge grunge fan. Superunknown is one of my absolute favorite albums. So is Ten. Those albums even in their softest moments don't have any correlation to CP to my ears. CP is a hard rock album and I fail to hear the grunge influence. To me it's merely a guitar-driven rock record. A song like "Black" or "No Excuses" would not have fit on any Rush record.

 

The only song I can closely relate to the genre is Stick It Out, and that song is awful.

Edited December 2, 2013 by ZachenFoot

[Czarcasm]

Lots of people like TFE, me included. Everyone who hates it has chimed in. Can I count them all on one hand or two?

I like it also man. it makes me think of hiking through the Canadian Shield near Georgian bay. Drinking a few beers, having a few tokes along the way... :smoke:

It's a very Canadian sounding album much like Moving Pictures, but whereas Moving Pictures is an album for downtown Toronto commutes, TfE is for losing yourself in nature.

 

Limbo kicks so much ass it's unreal.

[Cyclonus X-1]

Thank God someone said CP doesn't sound like grunge.

 

Can anyone imagine Alice in Chains doing "Everyday Glory?" Sheesh. CP is way too clean.

 

A few things...

 

1) Nevermind is one of the cleanest rock records out there. Compare live versions of Lithium, Come As You Are, etc., to the renditions that were released on that album. Saying CP is "clean" means nothing unless you're about to assert that a band like Nirvana shouldn't be classified as grunge either.

 

2) If you think that grunge bands stuck to delivering hard, dirty rock songs, you're very much mistaken. That was the same era that gave us All Apologies, Black, No Excuses, and many other such tunes. It wasn't all Them Bones and Man in the Box.

 

3) Even people in this thread who have called CP and TfE "grungy" have stated that not everything on those records qualifies. Pulling out the odd Everyday Glory or Resist doesn't contradict what people have said.

 

4) The members of Rush themselves have said they enjoyed grunge bands like Nirvana (whom they even asked to open for them) and did not deny that grunge music influenced their own when participating in interviews during the Counterparts period.

 

I don't think Nirvana should be classified as grunge, but that's another story.

 

Even CP at its heaviest doesn't represent grunge. And even grunge at its softest isn't as soft as song like Everyday Glory.

 

I'm a huge grunge fan. Superunknown is one of my absolute favorite albums. So is Ten. Those albums even in their softest moments don't have any correlation to CP to my ears. CP is a hard rock album and I fail to hear the grunge influence. To me it's merely a guitar-driven rock record. A song like "Black" or "No Excuses" would not have fit on any Rush record.

 

The only song I can closely relate to the genre is Stick It Out, and that song is awful.

 

So CP and TfE aren't grungy according to the Zachenfoot definition of grunge, and that's absolutely fine. But the flavor and style of many songs on those albums call to mind for a lot of people what grunge bands were producing in the early '90s, and the members of Rush themselves have acknowledged the influence of grunge on their work. You can cite isolated instances of deviance and point out that The Speed of Love and Big Dumb Sex are not similar pieces of music, but it won't change any of what I've said, and it doesn't mean that folks who "perceive the grunge" in those albums are clueless as to what sort of music grunge bands were putting out.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Cyclonus X-1

[ZachenFoot]

Thank God someone said CP doesn't sound like grunge.

 

Can anyone imagine Alice in Chains doing "Everyday Glory?" Sheesh. CP is way too clean.

 

A few things...

 

1) Nevermind is one of the cleanest rock records out there. Compare live versions of Lithium, Come As You Are, etc., to the renditions that were released on that album. Saying CP is "clean" means nothing unless you're about to assert that a band like Nirvana shouldn't be classified as grunge either.

 

2) If you think that grunge bands stuck to delivering hard, dirty rock songs, you're very much mistaken. That was the same era that gave us All Apologies, Black, No Excuses, and many other such tunes. It wasn't all Them Bones and Man in the Box.

 

3) Even people in this thread who have called CP and TfE "grungy" have stated that not everything on those records qualifies. Pulling out the odd Everyday Glory or Resist doesn't contradict what people have said.

 

4) The members of Rush themselves have said they enjoyed grunge bands like Nirvana (whom they even asked to open for them) and did not deny that grunge music influenced their own when participating in interviews during the Counterparts period.

 

I don't think Nirvana should be classified as grunge, but that's another story.

 

Even CP at its heaviest doesn't represent grunge. And even grunge at its softest isn't as soft as song like Everyday Glory.

 

I'm a huge grunge fan. Superunknown is one of my absolute favorite albums. So is Ten. Those albums even in their softest moments don't have any correlation to CP to my ears. CP is a hard rock album and I fail to hear the grunge influence. To me it's merely a guitar-driven rock record. A song like "Black" or "No Excuses" would not have fit on any Rush record.

 

The only song I can closely relate to the genre is Stick It Out, and that song is awful.

 

So CP and TfE aren't grungy according to the Zachenfoot definition of grunge, and that's absolutely fine. But the flavor and style of many songs on those albums call to mind for a lot of people what grunge bands were producing in the early '90s, and the members of Rush themselves have acknowledged the influence of grunge on their work. You can cite isolated incidences of deviance and point out that The Speed of Love and Big Dumb Sex are not similar pieces of music, but it won't change any of what I've said, and it doesn't mean that folks who "perceive the grunge" in those albums are clueless as to what sort of music grunge bands were putting out.

 

Man, when did I ever say people were clueless?

 

Reading back to my initial post, I realize I came off a bit condescending so I ask forgiveness on that. There are a lot of smart people here who know a hell of a lot more about music than I do, and I have my opinions and they have theirs. Certainly didn't intend to make it seem otherwise.

[Shredder2]

The only major flaw I see in T4E are the lyrics. :P Other than that, it's a pretty solid album.

[bathory]

Let's face it.... It's pretty lousy compared to their pre 86' work's.....

 

Remember, Power Windows and GuP are in that group.

 

both of which are killer albums and better than CP or T4E

[bathory]

Thank God someone said CP doesn't sound like grunge.

 

Can anyone imagine Alice in Chains doing "Everyday Glory?" Sheesh. CP is way too clean.

 

A few things...

 

1) Nevermind is one of the cleanest rock records out there. Compare live versions of Lithium, Come As You Are, etc., to the renditions that were released on that album. Saying CP is "clean" means nothing unless you're about to assert that a band like Nirvana shouldn't be classified as grunge either.

 

2) If you think that grunge bands stuck to delivering hard, dirty rock songs, you're very much mistaken. That was the same era that gave us All Apologies, Black, No Excuses, and many other such tunes. It wasn't all Them Bones and Man in the Box.

 

3) Even people in this thread who have called CP and TfE "grungy" have stated that not everything on those records qualifies. Pulling out the odd Everyday Glory or Resist doesn't contradict what people have said.

 

4) The members of Rush themselves have said they enjoyed grunge bands like Nirvana (whom they even asked to open for them) and did not deny that grunge music influenced their own when participating in interviews during the Counterparts period.

 

my comment was more in response to someone earlier in the thread calling a song on CP "sludgy"

 

nothing on CP, in terms of heaviness, even touches tad, the melvins, eyehategod, or other bands from the era that actually were "sludgy"

[LedRush]

Let's face it.... It's pretty lousy compared to their pre 86' work's.....

 

Remember, Power Windows and GuP are in that group.

 

both of which are albums and better than CP

 

Fixed.

[BUB]

One of the best sounding Rush albums, not my favorite album by any means, but it sounds really nice.

[laughedatbytime]

I like the cover art...

[sitboaf]

I'll go buy it right now just for you. I wish there was an official live version of limbo. All the the live versions on Youtube are bootlegged cam-rips :(

 

OK. I re-listened to Limbo (with enthusiasm!) and had a couple small revelations.

1. The cheesy test tube sounds, etc. come in a lot later than I remembered, and therefore aren't as prominent as my memory had believed. 1 small redemption point.

2. That weird bass sound (you can hear it from 0:36 to 0:52 and 1:40 to 1:56) is still a bit nails-on-the-chalkboard for me. I appreciate the effort, but not the result.

3. Alex DOES kick a lot of ass, but the melody just isn't as strong as WMT or LTTA.

4. All that said, I am happy to continue rating Limbo as "pretty good/decent/accomplishes what it has set out to do", so it is rarely, if ever, skipped. I have 35 other studio Rush songs ranked this way, but 149 ranked higher and 6 lower.

Edited December 3, 2013 by sitboaf

[EagleMoon]

I've always liked TFE, though I rarely listen to the last two songs on the album.

[RushBoingo]

I agree with Laughedatbytime, I really enjoy the art. Not just the cover, but the booklet. It is a neat collection of photos.

[bathory]

Let's face it.... It's pretty lousy compared to their pre 86' work's.....

 

Remember, Power Windows and GuP are in that group.

 

both of which are albums and better than CP

 

Fixed.

I don't even get you sometimes, man - you're a libertarian who believes in gun control and a rush fan who likes roll the bones and test for echo more than grace under pressure and power windows??

[bathory]

and let's not forget your stance on PC vs console gaming

[LedRush]

Let's face it.... It's pretty lousy compared to their pre 86' work's.....

 

Remember, Power Windows and GuP are in that group.

 

both of which are albums and better than CP

 

Fixed.

I don't even get you sometimes, man - you're a libertarian who believes in gun control and a rush fan who likes roll the bones and test for echo more than grace under pressure and power windows??

 

Yes, I have a brain and ears :)