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What gives with these concert setlists?


Czarcasm
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what did he think was gonna happen? "hey why don't they play dog years instead of la villa" of course people are gonna rage

 

I never said anything similar to that. Tom Sawyer and other hits are played so often I was wondering if they needed to be played when the majority of people at Rush concerts are usually die hard fans.

you didn't say it? I've got the proof right here

I'm honestly confused. I never said the words Dog Years or La VIlla in this thread. I said that a couple of GOOD songs from test for echo could stand to be revived along with unplayed tracks from the rest of their career. I didn't mention La Villa when I brought up over played songs, that was you, champ.

 

no I saw it

Then find it and deliver it to me I literally have all day. Unless you're a liar who's just trying to start shit.

 

I've got the evidence right here

According to what you quoted above the person who compared Dog Years to La Villa first is you, with me just reiterating what you said. I can't tell if you're a troll or just retarded, but judging by the number of posts you've made I'm gonna wager you're the latter.

 

But seriously, what are you doing?

I have the proof. but I won't reveal it now. soon though...

:laughing guy:
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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

yeah, that set list would only work at a smaller auditorium filled with the biggest diehard fans
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The set list was great except for 8 of the 9 songs from Snakes they did. Well, I'm being harsh.....7 of 9. :LMAO: That reminds me, that chick on Star Trek Voyager was waaaay hot.

http://www.celebs101.com/wallpapers/Jeri_Ryan/118535/jeri_ryan_wallpaper_18.jpg

:blush: Seven of Nine! Your implant appears to be showing!

 

Borg implants Rock!!

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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

yeah, that set list would only work at a smaller auditorium filled with the biggest diehard fans

Coventry and Hughes&Kettner can work as ushers! :P

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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

yeah, that set list would only work at a smaller auditorium filled with the biggest diehard fans

Coventry and Hughes&Kettner can work as ushers! :P

 

The show would STILL rock! But it would be a series of songs rather than a concert.

 

The contact high would probably be much more intense as fans tried to make sense of the set.

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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

yeah, that set list would only work at a smaller auditorium filled with the biggest diehard fans

Coventry and Hughes&Kettner can work as ushers! :P

 

The show would STILL rock! But it would be a series of songs rather than a concert.

 

The contact high would probably be much more intense as fans tried to make sense of the set.

Oh it would rock, and it would be a concert. But the majority of the crowd would be like... :wtf:
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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

yeah, that set list would only work at a smaller auditorium filled with the biggest diehard fans

Coventry and Hughes&Kettner can work as ushers! :P

 

The show would STILL rock! But it would be a series of songs rather than a concert.

 

The contact high would probably be much more intense as fans tried to make sense of the set.

Oh it would rock, and it would be a concert. But the majority of the crowd would be like... :wtf:

 

Rush could rock the phone book and I'd be digging it the whole show long. There are very few songs that watching them play can't make me love at least in the moment.

 

Still, though, I'm glad that we're not going to be getting this setlist :LOL:

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Most " classic rock " bands avoid their new material, if any , like the plague, cause they know the fans could give a shit .. Rush fans are more hardcore than that.

 

I'm a hardcore "fan", but hate everything after 2000.

then you are not a hard Core Fan. A hard core fan understands that " No Changes are Permanent" and excepts what ever direction they have decided to venture towards. Including recording and touring with Keyboards or Strings. :codger:

 

Actually you can create a great and versatile set list with just songs from Counterparts onward.

Alternates are in Italics.

 

Set 1:

 

Far Cry

Caravan

BU2B (album Version-(Never Played Live)

Cut to the Chase (Never Played Live)

Vapor Trail (Never Played Live)

Earth Shine / Half the World

Driven (with Bass Solo)

Limbo / Drum Solo #1 / Main Monkey Business

Ceiling Unlimited (Remixed w-solo) (Never Played Live)

One Little Victory (Remixed w-Solo) (Never Played Live)

 

Set 2:

 

The Anarchist

Carnies

Stick it Out

Alien Shore (Never Played Live)

Sweet Miracle (Never Played Live)

Working Them Angels / Way the Wind Blows

Nobody's Hero

The Wreckers

The Garden

Mal-Nar/ Drum Solo #2

Alex's Electric Solo - Seven Cities of Gold / Animate

Test For Echo

Clockwork Angels

 

Encore:

 

Cold Fire

Secret Touch

Headlong Flight

 

:rush: :haz: :rush:

 

Horrible....and bu2b has been played live...the 20 seconds added to the CA version doesn't really change that.

But what a god awful set. Let's not go there for a while ladies.

 

I agree. This is quite possibly one of the worst sets I've ever seen. I predict half the venue emptied by intermission.

yeah, that set list would only work at a smaller auditorium filled with the biggest diehard fans

Coventry and Hughes&Kettner can work as ushers! :P

 

The show would STILL rock! But it would be a series of songs rather than a concert.

 

The contact high would probably be much more intense as fans tried to make sense of the set.

Oh it would rock, and it would be a concert. But the majority of the crowd would be like... :wtf:

 

Rush could rock the phone book and I'd be digging it the whole show long. There are very few songs that watching them play can't make me love at least in the moment.

 

Still, though, I'm glad that we're not going to be getting this setlist :LOL:

 

I agree! Even Virtuality, which I utterly loathe came across pretty well Live! :codger:

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The set list was great except for 8 of the 9 songs from Snakes they did. Well, I'm being harsh.....7 of 9. :LMAO: That reminds me, that chick on Star Trek Voyager was waaaay hot.

http://www.celebs101.com/wallpapers/Jeri_Ryan/118535/jeri_ryan_wallpaper_18.jpg

:blush: Seven of Nine! Your implant appears to be showing!

 

Borg implants Rock!!

Yes. I want her to assimilate me :blaze:
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The set list was great except for 8 of the 9 songs from Snakes they did. Well, I'm being harsh.....7 of 9. :LMAO: That reminds me, that chick on Star Trek Voyager was waaaay hot.

http://www.celebs101.com/wallpapers/Jeri_Ryan/118535/jeri_ryan_wallpaper_18.jpg

:blush: Seven of Nine! Your implant appears to be showing!

 

Borg implants Rock!!

Yes. I want her to assimilate me :blaze:

Is her boom Bleeding?
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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

 

Idk; after the initial energetic guitar, 'CF' slides into a lite-pop ballad before the thunderous chorus. It tends to kill the energy. It also has that wonderfully ambiguous line:

 

"You know how complex women are"

 

Is he referring to just "complex women"? or is he referring to how all women are complex?

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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

 

Idk; after the initial energetic guitar, 'CF' slides into a lite-pop ballad before the thunderous chorus. It tends to kill the energy. It also has that wonderfully ambiguous line:

 

"You know how complex women are"

 

Is he referring to just "complex women"? or is he referring to how all women are complex?

Cold Fire is along the lines of those RUSH songs like Working Them Angels and The Wreckers which I happen to enjoy. Just another side of RUSH. As for the meaning of the ambiguous phrase in question, I think he meant All women. If not, its truly genius! :codger: Edited by losingit2k
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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

 

Idk; after the initial energetic guitar, 'CF' slides into a lite-pop ballad before the thunderous chorus. It tends to kill the energy. It also has that wonderfully ambiguous line:

 

"You know how complex women are"

 

Is he referring to just "complex women"? or is he referring to how all women are complex?

Cold Fire is along the lines of those RUSH songs like Working Them Angels and The Wreckers which I happen to enjoy. Just another side of RUSH. As for the meaning of the ambiguous phrase in question, I think he meant All women. If not, its truly genius! :codger:

 

Knowing Neil (which I don't, but you know what I mean), it's probably the former. I can't imagine Neil with a simplistic Kardeshian woman.

 

'CF' is a great tune off an underappreciated album. Its chorus lyrics are poignant and its chord changes pretty uplifting. It's not a skip song.

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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

 

Idk; after the initial energetic guitar, 'CF' slides into a lite-pop ballad before the thunderous chorus. It tends to kill the energy. It also has that wonderfully ambiguous line:

 

"You know how complex women are"

 

Is he referring to just "complex women"? or is he referring to how all women are complex?

Cold Fire is along the lines of those RUSH songs like Working Them Angels and The Wreckers which I happen to enjoy. Just another side of RUSH. As for the meaning of the ambiguous phrase in question, I think he meant All women. If not, its truly genius! :codger:

 

Knowing Neil (which I don't, but you know what I mean), it's probably the former. I can't imagine Neil with a simplistic Kardeshian woman.

 

'CF' is a great tune off an underappreciated album. Its chorus lyrics are poignant and its chord changes pretty uplifting. It's not a skip song.

I agree, I enjoy that album immensely. I would love for Rush to include Cut to the Chase and Alien Shore on any of their future setlists. The only song I truly dislike on that album is "Speed of Love" Rates right down there with Virtuality and Dog Years! :codger:

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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

 

Idk; after the initial energetic guitar, 'CF' slides into a lite-pop ballad before the thunderous chorus. It tends to kill the energy. It also has that wonderfully ambiguous line:

 

"You know how complex women are"

 

Is he referring to just "complex women"? or is he referring to how all women are complex?

Cold Fire is along the lines of those RUSH songs like Working Them Angels and The Wreckers which I happen to enjoy. Just another side of RUSH. As for the meaning of the ambiguous phrase in question, I think he meant All women. If not, its truly genius! :codger:

 

Knowing Neil (which I don't, but you know what I mean), it's probably the former. I can't imagine Neil with a simplistic Kardeshian woman.

 

'CF' is a great tune off an underappreciated album. Its chorus lyrics are poignant and its chord changes pretty uplifting. It's not a skip song.

I agree, I enjoy that album immensely. I would love for Rush to include Cut to the Chase and Alien Shore on any of their future setlists. The only song I truly dislike on that album is "Speed of Love" Rates right down there with Virtuality and Dog Years! :codger:

 

Gasp! 'SOL' - despite the cheesy title - is musically amazing! Plus, that line "One night we are bathed in light/One day carried away in storms" pretty much sums up relationships.

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I mean, can you imagine "Cold Fire" being the first encore tune?

 

Yes! Yes I Can! Would you have prefered they Started the Concert of with Cold Fire and Started the Encore with Far Cry? It can happen very quickly, my fantasy RUSH members are very compromising and accomidating to their fanbase.

 

:codger:

 

Idk; after the initial energetic guitar, 'CF' slides into a lite-pop ballad before the thunderous chorus. It tends to kill the energy. It also has that wonderfully ambiguous line:

 

"You know how complex women are"

 

Is he referring to just "complex women"? or is he referring to how all women are complex?

Cold Fire is along the lines of those RUSH songs like Working Them Angels and The Wreckers which I happen to enjoy. Just another side of RUSH. As for the meaning of the ambiguous phrase in question, I think he meant All women. If not, its truly genius! :codger:

 

Knowing Neil (which I don't, but you know what I mean), it's probably the former. I can't imagine Neil with a simplistic Kardeshian woman.

 

'CF' is a great tune off an underappreciated album. Its chorus lyrics are poignant and its chord changes pretty uplifting. It's not a skip song.

I agree, I enjoy that album immensely. I would love for Rush to include Cut to the Chase and Alien Shore on any of their future setlists. The only song I truly dislike on that album is "Speed of Love" Rates right down there with Virtuality and Dog Years! :codger:

 

Gasp! 'SOL' - despite the cheesy title - is musically amazing! Plus, that line "One night we are bathed in light/One day carried away in storms" pretty much sums up relationships.

Sorry guy, can't agree with you on this one, "My heart goes out to you! "

 

The hook is weak, the verses are weak, the pre-choruses are weak and the Choruses just kills it completely! The only thing that is remotely interesting is the Lead/ Break/ Bridge part. Then The Chorus returns and hammers the nails into the coffin. Sorry, I can't swallow that one. I'm out of here at "the Speed of Love"

 

:outtahere:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dktKKYSeQio

Edited by losingit2k
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