Thoughts on Test for Echo

[rushgoober]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

[Lerxster]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

I think he's referring to your black heart. :)

[rushgoober]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

I think he's referring to your black heart. :)

 

yeah, ok - still have no idea what he's referring to.

[Lerxster]

Are the lyrics suppose to be personal or intimate? They are what Neil wants them to be.

 

Driven seems very personal and intimate- "but it's my turn to drive". Resist is nothing but personal and intimate. I hear touches of personal or intimate in most of TFE's songs.

 

 

That's a cop-out observation, Lerxster. Anyone's lyrics are what they want them to be - that doesn't make them successful or resonant. I just don't get the feeling that Neil especially believes in the lyrics on T4E; that any of them really resonate with him. The "my" in "Driven" ("it's MY turn to drive", etc.) - is that really Neil speaking or is that Neil hiding behind a generic speaker? With 'Scars" and "Chain Lightning" and "Losing It" and "Sweet Miracle" I know that's Neil behind those emotions. For much of T4E, it's not Neil; rather, it's Neil being different characters or handing out judgments of society.

 

What I meant was, Neil writes what he writes, and well, let me quote myself since you didn't respond to my main point:

 

If you don't dig the lyrics, no problem, but complaining they are not personal or intimate? They go there, but Rush is not known for their personal intimate lyrics. I don't get it.

 

Obviously there was a bit of experimentation lyrically on T4E- or rather, continued experimentation. It seems like the lyrics didn't meet your expectations, subject wise. Neil, like Rush, change every album so to have lyric expectations is not realistic. And I reject your drift that Neil was being somehow disingenuous on this album

 

Reject all you want, but there's almost nothing on this album that sounds sincere. In fact, when you factor in the socio-political drivel of "T4E", Neil comes across as even more narcissistic than usual.

Even more narcissistic than usual? Uh boy. :eyeroll:

 

I mean, I love the man and his work as much as the next guy, but having dove into his lyrics and prose for the past 25 years, he definitely is firmly entrenched in his opinion and world view.

No, I don't think you do "love the man". It really seemed you were going to turn this into a Neil Is A Dick thread. And guess what, you don't know Neil. You come off as 'one of those' who thinks they intimately know Neil because they're a fan but actually sound like you know jack shit.

[xmac]

I very much dislike T4E. It's the only Rush album I don't listen to. I think Vapor Trails is brilliant in comparison. The lyrics of T4E are awful and I find the production and tones (drum recordings, guitar sounds, etc) to be very very bad.

 

Just not a fan of T4E at all.

[Lerxster]

Ha - I like VT so much better. I love all the different opinions!

 

I often don't mind differences of opinions, except when it comes to VT. I cannot fathom with one ounce of my being how anyone could like that album.

Example of the gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

[coventry]

Are the lyrics suppose to be personal or intimate? They are what Neil wants them to be.

 

Driven seems very personal and intimate- "but it's my turn to drive". Resist is nothing but personal and intimate. I hear touches of personal or intimate in most of TFE's songs.

 

 

That's a cop-out observation, Lerxster. Anyone's lyrics are what they want them to be - that doesn't make them successful or resonant. I just don't get the feeling that Neil especially believes in the lyrics on T4E; that any of them really resonate with him. The "my" in "Driven" ("it's MY turn to drive", etc.) - is that really Neil speaking or is that Neil hiding behind a generic speaker? With 'Scars" and "Chain Lightning" and "Losing It" and "Sweet Miracle" I know that's Neil behind those emotions. For much of T4E, it's not Neil; rather, it's Neil being different characters or handing out judgments of society.

 

What I meant was, Neil writes what he writes, and well, let me quote myself since you didn't respond to my main point:

 

If you don't dig the lyrics, no problem, but complaining they are not personal or intimate? They go there, but Rush is not known for their personal intimate lyrics. I don't get it.

 

Obviously there was a bit of experimentation lyrically on T4E- or rather, continued experimentation. It seems like the lyrics didn't meet your expectations, subject wise. Neil, like Rush, change every album so to have lyric expectations is not realistic. And I reject your drift that Neil was being somehow disingenuous on this album

 

Reject all you want, but there's almost nothing on this album that sounds sincere. In fact, when you factor in the socio-political drivel of "T4E", Neil comes across as even more narcissistic than usual.

Even more narcissistic than usual? Uh boy. :eyeroll:

 

I mean, I love the man and his work as much as the next guy, but having dove into his lyrics and prose for the past 25 years, he definitely is firmly entrenched in his opinion and world view.

No, I don't think you do "love the man". It really seemed you were going to turn this into a Neil Is A Dick thread. And guess what, you don't know Neil. You come off as 'one of those' who thinks they intimately know Neil because they're a fan but actually sound like you know jack shit.

 

Seriously? I'm not going to descend into ankle biting, but for you to throw out impotent rage comments like that is kind of uncalled for. I think all of us on this forum admire and even idolize to various degrees the band and its members.

 

And no, I don't know Nel. I've never met him and probably never will. And if I did, I don't think he and I would be good friends at all, either. We're too far apart in personality and approach to life. But we do share of a love of literature and traveling and percussion, and perhaps that would be enough to keep us hanging out for a while.

 

As for not knowing "jack shit"? Well, whatever. I'm quite sure the total superficiality of all my posts here and in other Rush forums marks me as a complete newb fanboy. I humbly beg your forgiveness for not sharing your opinion on T4E. I guess that marks me as clueless as well.

[Hemisteers]

I am realizing that every single Rush album has something to offer musically. They are all different, and it is what it is (and what ever). When I was younger, I always listened to the first 20 seconds of a song from CP, T4E, RTB, etc and compare it to _______ (movingpicturessignalsfarewelltokingshemispheres) album. I am getting away from that gut reaction of comparing everything to "the greats" and instead just appreciating their other work for what it is.

 

Edit: I also wanted to mention, every Rush album has exceptional guitar, bass, and drum playing. So I think it is easier to get into their middle period stuff if you focus on the actual textures and nuances of the sound. (IE, Geddy's tone, Neil's fills, and Alex's solos/overall sound.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Hemisteers

[coventry]

(I've moved this from the "Virtuality" thread as it seems more appropriate as a separate thread. Please forgive any forum hubris or trespass for doing that).

 

Truthfully, none of the tunes on T4E seem at all personal or intimate. Not that Neil's a Tom Waits or Suzanne Vega of intimate lyrics, but this album really resonates with cold, mechanical lyrics. Even the attempts at humor get lost in Neil's view-from-on-high mentality. From the detached aloofness of the title track and "Totem", to the can't-think-of-a-topic mentality of "Dog Years", "Half the World", and "Color of Right", to the attempt-to-capture-the-social-buzz of "Virtuality", the album just falls flat.

 

Even something as seemingly initmate as "Resist" is built around an unoriginal thought (first penned by Oscar Wilde) and I really don't believe Neil has had any trouble resisting temptation to any great extent. Neil and Oscar Wilde are diametric opposites in personality, whimsy, and where they stick/stuck their cocks.

 

Compared with the open-heart surgery emotion of VT and the powerful explorarion of gender identity of CP, T4E comes across as Neil clutching at lyrical straws and, ultimately, sinking.

 

In fact, the only songs with even a shred of personal depth and "flesh and blood and fire" are "Time and Motion" and "Carve Away the Stone". They're the only ones that feel accessible to anyone but Neil - I mean, we can all relate to that feeling of filling our days like boxcars in a train, or waiting for someone else to move before we can get on with our own life. But other than that, what's left are pithy observations about a two-dimensional world. Which is a shame as Neil has seen more of the world firsthand and intimately than most of us have. Compare, for instance, "Scars" or "Ghost Rider" or "Chain Lightning" with any of the paper cut-out lyrics on T4E.

 

Edit: The music, as has been pointed out a bunch of times, is interesting and well-constructed, especially on "Totem" and a few others. In fact, this album grooves way more than others!

:goodone: Perhaps life was too good at that point in time, leaving him uninspired and left with little more than banal musings as material to write around. Suffering makes for good art, as you note in your reference to the gut-wrenchingly personal and transparent lyrics of Vapor Trails. From T4E, I do like Neil's work on Time and Motion. "Lives connect in webs of gold and razor wire" is well-crafted, for example.

 

You're right. That's a particularly sharp bit of imagery! Seriously. And sometimes that gold turns to razor wire...

[Lerxster]

Are the lyrics suppose to be personal or intimate? They are what Neil wants them to be.

 

Driven seems very personal and intimate- "but it's my turn to drive". Resist is nothing but personal and intimate. I hear touches of personal or intimate in most of TFE's songs.

 

 

That's a cop-out observation, Lerxster. Anyone's lyrics are what they want them to be - that doesn't make them successful or resonant. I just don't get the feeling that Neil especially believes in the lyrics on T4E; that any of them really resonate with him. The "my" in "Driven" ("it's MY turn to drive", etc.) - is that really Neil speaking or is that Neil hiding behind a generic speaker? With 'Scars" and "Chain Lightning" and "Losing It" and "Sweet Miracle" I know that's Neil behind those emotions. For much of T4E, it's not Neil; rather, it's Neil being different characters or handing out judgments of society.

 

What I meant was, Neil writes what he writes, and well, let me quote myself since you didn't respond to my main point:

 

If you don't dig the lyrics, no problem, but complaining they are not personal or intimate? They go there, but Rush is not known for their personal intimate lyrics. I don't get it.

 

Obviously there was a bit of experimentation lyrically on T4E- or rather, continued experimentation. It seems like the lyrics didn't meet your expectations, subject wise. Neil, like Rush, change every album so to have lyric expectations is not realistic. And I reject your drift that Neil was being somehow disingenuous on this album

 

Reject all you want, but there's almost nothing on this album that sounds sincere. In fact, when you factor in the socio-political drivel of "T4E", Neil comes across as even more narcissistic than usual.

Even more narcissistic than usual? Uh boy. :eyeroll:

 

I mean, I love the man and his work as much as the next guy, but having dove into his lyrics and prose for the past 25 years, he definitely is firmly entrenched in his opinion and world view.

No, I don't think you do "love the man". It really seemed you were going to turn this into a Neil Is A Dick thread. And guess what, you don't know Neil. You come off as 'one of those' who thinks they intimately know Neil because they're a fan but actually sound like you know jack shit.

 

Seriously? I'm not going to descend into ankle biting, but for you to throw out impotent rage comments like that is kind of uncalled for. I think all of us on this forum admire and even idolize to various degrees the band and its members.

 

And no, I don't know Nel. I've never met him and probably never will. And if I did, I don't think he and I would be good friends at all, either. We're too far apart in personality and approach to life. But we do share of a love of literature and traveling and percussion, and perhaps that would be enough to keep us hanging out for a while.

 

As for not knowing "jack shit"? Well, whatever. I'm quite sure the total superficiality of all my posts here and in other Rush forums marks me as a complete newb fanboy. I humbly beg your forgiveness for not sharing your opinion on T4E. I guess that marks me as clueless as well.

Impotent rage? I merely gave my opinion of your posted attitude and told you how you appeared in your thread. And I never slammed your opinion of T4E, just questioned your expectations and disappointment that the lyrics weren't 'personal or intimate' enough for you. C'mon man, read my post more than once before replying.

 

You do come off as posting about Neil from assumption and not knowledge. And no, you're not forgiven.

 

Edited to add: If you actually do think Neil is a narcissist, you truly know jack shit.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Lerxster

[drbirdsong]

Why can't joy make for good art?

 

Hearing Rush fans complain about T4E's cheesy 'fun' tone is like hearing Larry Flint complain that a porn is too hardcore. This is the kind of thing Rush is all about. They don't play to whatever is 'cool', they play in deference to style and mainstream expectations. They are about the raw expression of individualism- with no concern about whether they are cheesy or not.

 

Embrace the cheese. Love the cheese. Find the joy in cheese.

 

Gouda posting.

[JohnnyBlaze]

I haven't read this entire thread so I'm not sure if this point has already been made: Since this was the album which first showed Peart's new drum approach, wouldn't it be natural that his approach to lyric writing be a bit different too? I'm not saying Peart did it intentionally or that the lyrics were worse because of it BUT it'd seem that there must have been SOME effect on HOW he wrote lyrics after his meetings with Gruber, etc.

[Lerxster]

Why can't joy make for good art?

 

Hearing Rush fans complain about T4E's cheesy 'fun' tone is like hearing Larry Flint complain that a porn is too hardcore. This is the kind of thing Rush is all about. They don't play to whatever is 'cool', they play in deference to style and mainstream expectations. They are about the raw exp<b></b>ression of individualism- with no concern about whether they are cheesy or not.

 

Embrace the cheese. Love the cheese. Find the joy in cheese.

 

Gouda posting.

I swiss you hadn't gone there. This colby the worst joke of the day.

[rushgoober]

Ha - I like VT so much better. I love all the different opinions!

 

I often don't mind differences of opinions, except when it comes to VT. I cannot fathom with one ounce of my being how anyone could like that album.

Example of the gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

Still not getting it.

[LedRush]

After the complete inability to believable relate to others in CP (Animate and Nobody's Hero excepted), Neil tries another tack and write more about society and the way people attempt to interact. It is a very good album which stands head and shoulders above its predecessor in both music and lyrics. The album took the good sound from CP and really ignored the rest, making a good comeback album.

 

 

No matter the thread you always find a way to put your "I hate CP" point of view into the discussion.

 

I don't even insert it into every thread on the topic, nonetheless ones not on the topic. When everyone is comparing the album to what came right before and after it, I chimed in with my opinion, stated in a much more diplomatic way then some here are known to do. All the time. Even when it's off topic. Multiple times in the same thread solely for getting the last word in. After being told many times to stop. No prizes for naming the poster :D

[circumstantial tree]

To me, Test for Echo is meaningless. It holds nothing for me.

[rushgoober]

To me, Test for Echo is meaningless. It holds nothing for me.

 

:goodone:

 

/thread

[goose]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

Nothing really. Made you post, though! :poke: Just kidding. In all seriousness, it does surprise me that a sensitive, proggy type like yourself doesn't feel the raw emotion that absolutely seethes from Vapor Trails. And you knowing the band as well as you do, you must have some emotional connection to each member, including Neil. Knowing his circumstances, his intensely private nature, and being presented with the rarest of efforts from him, a true glimpse into the core of his emotions...how you of all people doesn't connect with it in any way absolutely astounds me. :cheers:

[goose]

Ha - I like VT so much better. I love all the different opinions!

 

I often don't mind differences of opinions, except when it comes to VT. I cannot fathom with one ounce of my being how anyone could like that album.

Example of the gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

:laughing guy:

[goose]

(I've moved this from the "Virtuality" thread as it seems more appropriate as a separate thread. Please forgive any forum hubris or trespass for doing that).

 

Truthfully, none of the tunes on T4E seem at all personal or intimate. Not that Neil's a Tom Waits or Suzanne Vega of intimate lyrics, but this album really resonates with cold, mechanical lyrics. Even the attempts at humor get lost in Neil's view-from-on-high mentality. From the detached aloofness of the title track and "Totem", to the can't-think-of-a-topic mentality of "Dog Years", "Half the World", and "Color of Right", to the attempt-to-capture-the-social-buzz of "Virtuality", the album just falls flat.

 

Even something as seemingly initmate as "Resist" is built around an unoriginal thought (first penned by Oscar Wilde) and I really don't believe Neil has had any trouble resisting temptation to any great extent. Neil and Oscar Wilde are diametric opposites in personality, whimsy, and where they stick/stuck their cocks.

 

Compared with the open-heart surgery emotion of VT and the powerful explorarion of gender identity of CP, T4E comes across as Neil clutching at lyrical straws and, ultimately, sinking.

 

In fact, the only songs with even a shred of personal depth and "flesh and blood and fire" are "Time and Motion" and "Carve Away the Stone". They're the only ones that feel accessible to anyone but Neil - I mean, we can all relate to that feeling of filling our days like boxcars in a train, or waiting for someone else to move before we can get on with our own life. But other than that, what's left are pithy observations about a two-dimensional world. Which is a shame as Neil has seen more of the world firsthand and intimately than most of us have. Compare, for instance, "Scars" or "Ghost Rider" or "Chain Lightning" with any of the paper cut-out lyrics on T4E.

 

Edit: The music, as has been pointed out a bunch of times, is interesting and well-constructed, especially on "Totem" and a few others. In fact, this album grooves way more than others!

:goodone: Perhaps life was too good at that point in time, leaving him uninspired and left with little more than banal musings as material to write around. Suffering makes for good art, as you note in your reference to the gut-wrenchingly personal and transparent lyrics of Vapor Trails. From T4E, I do like Neil's work on Time and Motion. "Lives connect in webs of gold and razor wire" is well-crafted, for example.

 

You're right. That's a particularly sharp bit of imagery! Seriously. And sometimes that gold turns to razor wire...

http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Wedding-rings.jpg

[rushgoober]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

Nothing really. Made you post, though! :poke: Just kidding. In all seriousness, it does surprise me that a sensitive, proggy type like yourself doesn't feel the raw emotion that absolutely seethes from Vapor Trails. And you knowing the band as well as you do, you must have some emotional connection to each member, including Neil. Knowing his circumstances, his intensely private nature, and being presented with the rarest of efforts from him, a true glimpse into the core of his emotions...how you of all people doesn't connect with it in any way absolutely astounds me. :cheers:

 

i don't know what to tell you. the album sucks. i can't think of one rush song i like or love because of any connection it has with any of the band members' personal lives. if i like the emotional content of the song, i do because i find i can personally relate to it in some way, or because it's cool or deep or whatever. It never has anything to do with because it in some way relates to neil's or geddy's personal lives. rush is not taylor swift.

 

if a song is great, i love it. if it's good, i like it. if it sucks, etc.

[goose]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

Nothing really. Made you post, though! :poke: Just kidding. In all seriousness, it does surprise me that a sensitive, proggy type like yourself doesn't feel the raw emotion that absolutely seethes from Vapor Trails. And you knowing the band as well as you do, you must have some emotional connection to each member, including Neil. Knowing his circumstances, his intensely private nature, and being presented with the rarest of efforts from him, a true glimpse into the core of his emotions...how you of all people doesn't connect with it in any way absolutely astounds me. :cheers:

 

i don't know what to tell you. the album sucks. i can't think of one rush song i like or love because of any connection it has with any of the band members' personal lives. if i like the emotional content of the song, i do because i find i can personally relate to it in some way, or because it's cool or deep or whatever. It never has anything to do with because it in some way relates to neil's or geddy's personal lives. rush is not taylor swift.

 

if a song is great, i love it. if it's good, i like it. if it sucks, etc.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/245/4/6/gaping_hole_by_mrdorgon-d5ddtl8.jpg

[rushgoober]

We can pick apart the lyrics in a lot of songs on T4E, and rightly so, but the truth of the matter, and what's even more important, is that while T4E is a weak effort from Rush, compared to VT, it's a frickin masterpiece.

There is clearly a gaping hole in your soul that renders you incapable of empathy.

 

What does empathy have to do with anything? T4E is a weak album and VT is a sucky one. Most of their albums are great. I have no idea what you're getting at.

Nothing really. Made you post, though! :poke: Just kidding. In all seriousness, it does surprise me that a sensitive, proggy type like yourself doesn't feel the raw emotion that absolutely seethes from Vapor Trails. And you knowing the band as well as you do, you must have some emotional connection to each member, including Neil. Knowing his circumstances, his intensely private nature, and being presented with the rarest of efforts from him, a true glimpse into the core of his emotions...how you of all people doesn't connect with it in any way absolutely astounds me. :cheers:

 

i don't know what to tell you. the album sucks. i can't think of one rush song i like or love because of any connection it has with any of the band members' personal lives. if i like the emotional content of the song, i do because i find i can personally relate to it in some way, or because it's cool or deep or whatever. It never has anything to do with because it in some way relates to neil's or geddy's personal lives. rush is not taylor swift.

 

if a song is great, i love it. if it's good, i like it. if it sucks, etc.

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/245/4/6/gaping_hole_by_mrdorgon-d5ddtl8.jpg

 

it's an interesting theory. you hate the album i love so obviously you have a gaping hole in your soul. a bit extreme, but it still doesn't make the album suck any less. :P

[hobo73]

One of the times I agree with points from both sides of the argument :P

I personally love the album!

[Hemisteers]

This is such a chill album from Rush. I am surprised that so many fans dislike it but that's life. The Color of Right and Time and Motion are my jams.