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Neil's Drum Sound...


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I know that DW Drums are widely used today and they're considered top-shelf by many professionals. I hear they're quite pricey too. Other than on albums and recorded songs, I've only heard them a couple of times (accoustically) and one of those times was when I was playing them myself. They're well built, weight a ton, and the accessories are insanely well made. But, I'm not sure I really like sound of the "new drums."

 

Listening to the earlier Rush recordings up to Moving Pictures, I think the drums sound much better than they do on the last few albums. Earlier on, Neil played Slingerland, Tama and Ludwig and now he's on the DWs. I just love the Tamas on MP, of course, but listen to Caress of Steel. The drums sound like... well, drums. So clear and defined, the way drums are supposed to sound.

 

I know a lot of the final-version drum sound has to do with studio production, but is it just me, or do Neil's earlier drums sound better than the more recent ones? And, I really like his live sound too, especially around the AFTK and Hemispheres tours.

 

A recording engineer, I am not... I'm sure some of you know more about this than I do.

 

 

THX!

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I've been saying since day 1 when Neil switched to DW's when TFE came out. There was a night and day difference in the sound. Neils DW drum sound isn't even close to what he was getting out of his Tama's and Ludwigs (in studio or live).

 

There are a few moments on CA album where I cringe at the Tom sound he is getting. I am like WTF is that? - Awful!

 

One of Rocks greatest drummers being killed by the DW's.

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To my ears his best drum sound were the Tamas. With close second surprisingly to the Ludwigs. That may be explained by today's recording techiniques though. Everything sounds like crap today. Even live though I don't think his DWs sound as good. Particularly his smaller toms. They sound like he is beating on soup cans.
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The drums (Especially the small toms) on CA sound as if they were recorded underwater. I blame that on the groupie producer, because on the Caravan single they were crisp and perfectly sounding. Although I don't care much for his DW sound, compared to the old Tamas or Ludwigs, I think they are made worse by crappy production and recording.
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So many variables involved. The great Tamas that everybody seems to love sounded quite awesome on MP but live on ESL they are muddy and sound overly "thick". Compare the tom fills on the studio version of Tom Sawyer to the EXIT version. On SIGNALS the new candy apple red kit sounds a bit better but still muffled. GRACE is better but not great. And yet this same kit sounds incredible on the GRACE tour video. And Power Windows sounds awesome to me all the way around including drums
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Man, thanks to the OP for starting this thread. I've been a drummer for 30 years now and credit Neil with getting me into the instrument. DW drums are very nicely made, but I do not like how they sound, especially live. Neils drum sound with the Tama's in the early 80's was warm and silky and the DW's sound hollow to me. I'm glad I'm not the only one who notices this. When he switched to Ludwigs in the late 80's I thought it was a step down in sound but its even worse now.
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DW toms sound like pure ass cheese. Never heard a DW kit I liked. Snare drums are ok. The pedals are very nice. Guess Neil likes the relationship with DW. Get back to Tama or Ludwig. Heck why not Yamahas. Those drums kick ass. The new Phoenix line is sweet. Neil would sound great with a set of those drums. Except he tunes the drums a tad high so he would never get a nice tone of the drum. His sound live is all compressed.
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Hemispheres - Hold Your Fire

 

The very best of Neil, playing, sonically, creative wise everything.

 

Presto and Roll The Bones sounded different and cool with the piccolo snare approach.

 

Counterparts was the last album with the classic neil sound and approach.

 

After Freddy he went in another direction both feel wise and sonically.

 

The production on CA kept Neils drums in the back and not nearly center and more upfront than we are used too.

 

His drums sounded far better sonically on Snakes and Arrows.

 

Vapor Trails.....enough said.

 

test For Echo I thought his drums sounded fantastic.

 

 

I prefer the Hemi- HYF period all day.

 

But live...his DW's sound great. Not as good as his Tama's and Ludwig's but very good indeed.

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Speaking as a drummer here (and not just as a fan), I can add a few things to this thread based on my own personal experiences.

 

Again, as stated, these are MY personal experiences.

 

Concerning DW's...

 

This whole "shell-tuned-to-a-specific note" stuff is, IMHO, pure conjecture, and subject to the listener's ears, and, honestly, some gullability in a multi-million dollar marketing program with name endorsers, etc. DW's hardware (shell and stand-alone) is beautiful, functional and virtually indestructible, as are the 9000 series pedals, but it kinda stops there for me. I love the fact that DW is an American drum company, employing Americans, and providing excellence in manufacturing...but it stops there for me. I never jumped on the DW bandwagon.

 

I believe one can tap a drumshell (as Mr. Good does) and the shell will be "close" to a certain pitch, just as a coffee table or night stand could be tapped, but the shell itself simply cannot be tuned to a specific pitch, as these drums are touted to do/be. My Starclassic Performers (all birch) do the same thing with a digital tuner.

 

I believe...just as "power toms" of the '80's...12x12, 13x13, then adding 2 inches to a 16x22 kick drum sometime during the late 80's/early 90's became all the rage - and everyone HAD to have an 18x22 kick, it's all hype, and kinda "faddy."

 

On with the drumtalk...

 

When Neil switched to Tama in 1979, he received the "first generation" of Tama Superstar birch drums. The bearing edges and shell ply configurations are distinctive to the sound of these early (late '70's) Superstar drums.

 

So...most folks describe the Tama years as "warm," eh? Good call. There's a reason for it!

 

Neil used Evans "Rock" batter heads almost exclusively until sometime during the Power Windows tour of '85-'86 (of which he began bouncing between Remo Pinstripes, Remo Ambassador Clears, and Remo Emporer Clears). Evans have a tendency to promote warmth and roundness, and curtail attack.

 

His selection of resonant heads (again, almost exclusively Evans) also factors in. From 1979 until 1982, he used Evans Hydraulic Resonant heads, then switching to Tom Tom Red Resonants from 1982 until the Power Windows tour, switching to Remo Diplomats and Amabassadors. Diplomats are thinner, Ambassadors slightly thicker, mil-ply wise.

 

Evans heads have a distinctive "over the collar" design, which is different than Remo's head manufacturing process. This process is also a small factor with the aural "organics" of the bearing edges/shells/heads.

 

The mil and ply count (single ply, dual ply, 7mil, 9 mil, etc.) of the drumheads also factor in somewhat, as does the player's touch, tuning, and the fact that "this particular player" was a hard hitter, using the butt-ends of Pro Mark 747 Japanese Oak drumsticks (a somewhat lightweight stick, but packing a wallop when used backward).

 

Also in 1979, the recording industry was still elbows-deep in "analog" gear...2 inch tape (warm), ribbon microphones (warm), and solid state outboard effects used during the recording process. Digital technology had not taken off full speed (yet).

 

Also at this time, Le Studio had an SSL 4000 series console, lending MAJOR warmth to the overall sound of both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. The SSL console is considered to be one of the best in the world. Folks still search for SSL's to record and mix with. P. Diddy, 2Pac, Nirvana, Dave Matthews, The Police...all SSL. Le Studio's SSL from Studio "A" is at Tree Sound Studios outside Atlanta, Georgia. It's a survivor.

 

When the Candy Apple Red Tamas appeared, they did not actually end up as "off the shelf" Superstars.

 

Tama lathed 2 plies from the center of a 6 ply Superstar shell, leaving 2 outside plies as reinforcement reings (re-rings). These were dubbed the "Artstar I's," or "Artstar Prototypes." Neil conceived using thinner shells (4 plies vs. 6 plies) after restoring a small set of Hayman drums during the mixdown of Exit...Stage Left, in 1982, along with his belief that the sound characteristics of a concert viola (very thin) could also apply to drumshells.

 

Keep in mind that none of Neil's early Tama drums were "factory-spec." Neil had a "go-to" team of guys at The Percussion Centre in Ft. Wayne, Indiana who, along with Ken Hoshino of Tama, and Larry Allen (original drum tech from 1977 until 1998) concocted a series of mods and doo-dads to achieve the final result: a set of custom, one-of-a-kind hot rod drums.

 

In fact, the Candy Apple Red finish of Neil's Tamas WERE actually a "hot rod" finish: DuPont Imron 6000 Candy Red (with other stuff blended to achieve a custom "Rush Red" finish). That DuPont was $500 a *gallon,* btw.

 

From the Blackrome Slingerland days until the 1st set of Keller-shelled, Red Sparkle DW's, there was a manufacturing process used on the interior of Neil's shells called "VibraFibing," whereby a raw shell was spun on a potter's wheel, and several coats of thin fiberglass resin was applied to the interiors, sonically "leveling out" the inconsistent tones given from drumshell to drumshell (i.e. a 12" closed tom and a 15" closed tom would theoretically be sonically "matched" if the process were applied to both shells). This is also a factor in the warmth.

 

During the tours from 1980 - 1986, Rush's concert sound engineer(s) also used top of the line/state of the art "warm" microphones (Sennheiser, Countryman, Shure, AKG, etc), sweetening this warmth pot even more.

 

These are only a few of the many factors in the "warmth" of the early Tamas.

Edited by Transparent Green
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You guys are nuts. The DW drums sound far superior than any of the tama or ludwigs. You have to separate the "love" of those old songs from the sound. They had no resonance and just sounded boxy and flat.

The sound he has now is the sound of real drum resonance. He used to coat the inside of his shells with fiberglass. That's what they sounded like.

 

As for now? It's just the mix on CA that sucks. S&A on the other hand was mixed wonderfully IMO.

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QUOTE (Transparent Green @ Sep 23 2012, 02:59 PM)
Speaking as a drummer here (and not just as a fan), I can add a few things to this thread based on my own personal experiences.

Again, as stated, these are MY personal experiences.

Concerning DW's...

This whole "shell-tuned-to-a-specific note" stuff is, IMHO, pure conjecture, and subject to the listener's ears, and, honestly, some gullability in a multi-million dollar marketing program with name endorsers, etc. DW's hardware (shell and stand-alone) is beautiful, functional and virtually indestructible, as are the 9000 series pedals, but it kinda stops there for me. I love the fact that DW is an American drum company, employing Americans, and providing excellence in manufacturing...but it stops there for me. I never jumped on the DW bandwagon.

I believe one can tap a drumshell (as Mr. Good does) and the shell will be "close" to a certain pitch, just as a coffee table or night stand could be tapped, but the shell itself simply cannot be tuned to a specific pitch, as these drums are touted to do/be. My Starclassic Performers (all birch) do the same thing with a digital tuner.

I believe...just as "power toms" of the '80's...12x12, 13x13, then adding 2 inches to a 16x22 kick drum sometime during the late 80's/early 90's became all the rage - and everyone HAD to have an 18x22 kick, it's all hype, and kinda "faddy."

On with the drumtalk...

When Neil switched to Tama in 1979, he received the "first generation" of Tama Superstar birch drums. The bearing edges and shell ply configurations are distinctive to the sound of these early (late '70's) Superstar drums.

So...most folks describe the Tama years as "warm," eh? Good call. There's a reason for it!

Neil used Evans "Rock" batter heads almost exclusively until sometime during the Power Windows tour of '85-'86 (of which he began bouncing between Remo Pinstripes, Remo Ambassador Clears, and Remo Emporer Clears). Evans have a tendency to promote warmth and roundness, and curtail attack.

His selection of resonant heads (again, almost exclusively Evans) also factors in. From 1979 until 1982, he used Evans Hydraulic Resonant heads, then switching to Tom Tom Red Resonants from 1982 until the Power Windows tour, switching to Remo Diplomats and Amabassadors. Diplomats are thinner, Ambassadors slightly thicker, mil-ply wise.

Evans heads have a distinctive "over the collar" design, which is different than Remo's head manufacturing process. This process is also a small factor with the aural "organics" of the bearing edges/shells/heads.

The mil and ply count (single ply, dual ply, 7mil, 9 mil, etc.) of the drumheads also factor in somewhat, as does the player's touch, tuning, and the fact that "this particular player" was a hard hitter, using the butt-ends of Pro Mark 747 Japanese Oak drumsticks (a somewhat lightweight stick, but packing a wallop when used backward).

Also in 1979, the recording industry was still elbows-deep in "analog" gear...2 inch tape (warm), ribbon microphones (warm), and solid state outboard effects used during the recording process. Digital technology had not taken off full speed (yet).

Also at this time, Le Studio had an SSL 4000 series console, lending MAJOR warmth to the overall sound of both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. The SSL console is considered to be one of the best in the world. Folks still search for SSL's to record and mix with. P. Diddy, 2Pac, Nirvana, Dave Matthews, The Police...all SSL. Le Studio's SSL from Studio "A" is at Tree Sound Studios outside Atlanta, Georgia. It's a survivor.

When the Candy Apple Red Tamas appeared, they did not actually end up as "off the shelf" Superstars.

Tama lathed 2 plies from the center of a 6 ply Superstar shell, leaving 2 outside plies as reinforcement reings (re-rings). These were dubbed the "Artstar I's," or "Artstar Prototypes." Neil conceived using thinner shells (4 plies vs. 6 plies) after restoring a small set of Hayman drums during the mixdown of Exit...Stage Left, in 1982, along with his belief that the sound characteristics of a concert viola (very thin) could also apply to drumshells.

Keep in mind that none of Neil's early Tama drums were "factory-spec." Neil had a "go-to" team of guys at The Percussion Centre in Ft. Wayne, Indiana who, along with Ken Hoshino of Tama, and Larry Allen (original drum tech from 1977 until 1998) concocted a series of mods and doo-dads to achieve the final result: a set of custom, one-of-a-kind hot rod drums.

In fact, the Candy Apple Red finish of Neil's Tamas WERE actually a "hot rod" finish: DuPont Imron 6000 Candy Red (with other stuff blended to achieve a custom "Rush Red" finish). That DuPont was $500 a *gallon,* btw.

From the Blackrome Slingerland days until the 1st set of Keller-shelled, Red Sparkle DW's, there was a manufacturing process used on the interior of Neil's shells called "VibraFibing," whereby a raw shell was spun on a potter's wheel, and several coats of thin fiberglass resin was applied to the interiors, sonically "leveling out" the inconsistent tones given from drumshell to drumshell (i.e. a 12" closed tom and a 15" closed tom would theoretically be sonically "matched" if the process were applied to both shells). This is also a factor in the warmth.

During the tours from 1980 - 1986, Rush's concert sound engineer(s) also used top of the line/state of the art "warm" microphones (Sennheiser, Countryman, Shure, AKG, etc), sweetening this warmth pot even more.

These are only a few of the many factors in the "warmth" of the early Tamas.

Oops. Had not read this.

This dude is spot on.

Good post goodpost.gif trink39.gif

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QUOTE (tommyali @ Sep 23 2012, 06:00 PM)
You guys are nuts. The DW drums sound far superior than any of the tama or ludwigs. You have to separate the "love" of those old songs from the sound. They had no resonance and just sounded boxy and flat.
The sound he has now is the sound of real drum resonance. He used to coat the inside of his shells with fiberglass. That's what they sounded like.

As for now? It's just the mix on CA that sucks.  S&A on the other hand was mixed wonderfully IMO.

I can only imagine how much better CA would sound with Neil using his Tama's or Ludwigs.

 

Edited by ClassicB
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The drum sound on Moving Pictures is pretty unique and because of the huge influence that album had on drumming, it will probably go down as one of the best sounding drum albums of all time.

 

I'm no drummer but some of my favorite Rush recordings drum wise are MP, PW, HYF & RTB.

 

Especially HYF. I know, sue me but the drum sound on Time Stand Still, Lock & Key, Mission, Prime Mover. I think it's just to die for.

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QUOTE (tommyali @ Sep 23 2012, 06:00 PM)
You guys are nuts. The DW drums sound far superior than any of the tama or ludwigs. You have to separate the "love" of those old songs from the sound. They had no resonance and just sounded boxy and flat.
The sound he has now is the sound of real drum resonance. He used to coat the inside of his shells with fiberglass. That's what they sounded like.

As for now? It's just the mix on CA that sucks. S&A on the other hand was mixed wonderfully IMO.

Sort of reminds me of how folks think that the Gibsons and Fenders are superior to Geddy and Alex's Wal Basses and PRS Guitars (including the guys themselves).... Classic and old school, yeah. Better? A matter of opinion...but, I think the answer is no, technically.

 

The DW's are amazing kits...but, like anything modern (and expensive) it will have it's share of detractors.

 

I love the sound of the drums on those early records...not for the drums themselves, but how they were recorded and mixed, like others have mentioned.

 

If you aren't pleased with a drum sound on record, it's probably because you aren't satisfied with the mix. I've heard other Terry Brown projects. That guy almost always gets a great drum sound. No matter what the drummer is using.

 

In the end, it doesn't really matter... you just have to trust the player. When Neil sits behind that kit, he's obviously getting what he's looking for, otherwise I'm sure he'd look elsewhere.

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Alot of this has to do with changing in recording techniques and equipment.

 

No matter what kind of kit Neil uses these days,he is still at the mercy of modern DIGITAL recording which produces a very different "flat" drum sound.

 

I am a drummer myself and play a John Bonham green sparkle Ludwig kit(supraphonic 402 snare paiste 2002 cymbals and a few paragons too of course) I have recorded these drums in world class studios and i can tell you that in the analog domain these drums have the big warm sound you expect. Digitally however they lose the character that make you want to play a kit this large in the first place.

 

Rush has always been on the cutting edge of technology(power windows was their first all digital recording which I believe to this day is why so many didn't and still don't like that record the sound was cold and sterile compared with all the previous analog records listeners were used to ) i think the technology has been as much of a burden as it has been a help to Rush's career and in my opinion i think the new setlist reflects that struggle thematically in a way.

 

I also prefer the sound of Alex's analog guitar pedals better too(roland ce-1 electric mistress etc)

 

I'm also not a big fan of no amps on stage and everything going direct injection as they do these days but i do understand why at their age.

 

In the end you can argue all day about drums,but the fact is digital recorded drums will never sound as good as those recorded analog.

 

 

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QUOTE (Transparent Green @ Sep 23 2012, 02:59 PM)
Speaking as a drummer here (and not just as a fan), I can add a few things to this thread based on my own personal experiences.

Again, as stated, these are MY personal experiences.

Concerning DW's...

This whole "shell-tuned-to-a-specific note" stuff is, IMHO, pure conjecture, and subject to the listener's ears, and, honestly, some gullability in a multi-million dollar marketing program with name endorsers, etc. DW's hardware (shell and stand-alone) is beautiful, functional and virtually indestructible, as are the 9000 series pedals, but it kinda stops there for me. I love the fact that DW is an American drum company, employing Americans, and providing excellence in manufacturing...but it stops there for me. I never jumped on the DW bandwagon.

I believe one can tap a drumshell (as Mr. Good does) and the shell will be "close" to a certain pitch, just as a coffee table or night stand could be tapped, but the shell itself simply cannot be tuned to a specific pitch, as these drums are touted to do/be. My Starclassic Performers (all birch) do the same thing with a digital tuner.

I believe...just as "power toms" of the '80's...12x12, 13x13, then adding 2 inches to a 16x22 kick drum sometime during the late 80's/early 90's became all the rage - and everyone HAD to have an 18x22 kick, it's all hype, and kinda "faddy."

On with the drumtalk...

When Neil switched to Tama in 1979, he received the "first generation" of Tama Superstar birch drums. The bearing edges and shell ply configurations are distinctive to the sound of these early (late '70's) Superstar drums.

So...most folks describe the Tama years as "warm," eh? Good call. There's a reason for it!

Neil used Evans "Rock" batter heads almost exclusively until sometime during the Power Windows tour of '85-'86 (of which he began bouncing between Remo Pinstripes, Remo Ambassador Clears, and Remo Emporer Clears). Evans have a tendency to promote warmth and roundness, and curtail attack.

His selection of resonant heads (again, almost exclusively Evans) also factors in. From 1979 until 1982, he used Evans Hydraulic Resonant heads, then switching to Tom Tom Red Resonants from 1982 until the Power Windows tour, switching to Remo Diplomats and Amabassadors. Diplomats are thinner, Ambassadors slightly thicker, mil-ply wise.

Evans heads have a distinctive "over the collar" design, which is different than Remo's head manufacturing process. This process is also a small factor with the aural "organics" of the bearing edges/shells/heads.

The mil and ply count (single ply, dual ply, 7mil, 9 mil, etc.) of the drumheads also factor in somewhat, as does the player's touch, tuning, and the fact that "this particular player" was a hard hitter, using the butt-ends of Pro Mark 747 Japanese Oak drumsticks (a somewhat lightweight stick, but packing a wallop when used backward).

Also in 1979, the recording industry was still elbows-deep in "analog" gear...2 inch tape (warm), ribbon microphones (warm), and solid state outboard effects used during the recording process. Digital technology had not taken off full speed (yet).

Also at this time, Le Studio had an SSL 4000 series console, lending MAJOR warmth to the overall sound of both Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. The SSL console is considered to be one of the best in the world. Folks still search for SSL's to record and mix with. P. Diddy, 2Pac, Nirvana, Dave Matthews, The Police...all SSL. Le Studio's SSL from Studio "A" is at Tree Sound Studios outside Atlanta, Georgia. It's a survivor.

When the Candy Apple Red Tamas appeared, they did not actually end up as "off the shelf" Superstars.

Tama lathed 2 plies from the center of a 6 ply Superstar shell, leaving 2 outside plies as reinforcement reings (re-rings). These were dubbed the "Artstar I's," or "Artstar Prototypes." Neil conceived using thinner shells (4 plies vs. 6 plies) after restoring a small set of Hayman drums during the mixdown of Exit...Stage Left, in 1982, along with his belief that the sound characteristics of a concert viola (very thin) could also apply to drumshells.

Keep in mind that none of Neil's early Tama drums were "factory-spec." Neil had a "go-to" team of guys at The Percussion Centre in Ft. Wayne, Indiana who, along with Ken Hoshino of Tama, and Larry Allen (original drum tech from 1977 until 1998) concocted a series of mods and doo-dads to achieve the final result: a set of custom, one-of-a-kind hot rod drums.

In fact, the Candy Apple Red finish of Neil's Tamas WERE actually a "hot rod" finish: DuPont Imron 6000 Candy Red (with other stuff blended to achieve a custom "Rush Red" finish). That DuPont was $500 a *gallon,* btw.

From the Blackrome Slingerland days until the 1st set of Keller-shelled, Red Sparkle DW's, there was a manufacturing process used on the interior of Neil's shells called "VibraFibing," whereby a raw shell was spun on a potter's wheel, and several coats of thin fiberglass resin was applied to the interiors, sonically "leveling out" the inconsistent tones given from drumshell to drumshell (i.e. a 12" closed tom and a 15" closed tom would theoretically be sonically "matched" if the process were applied to both shells). This is also a factor in the warmth.

During the tours from 1980 - 1986, Rush's concert sound engineer(s) also used top of the line/state of the art "warm" microphones (Sennheiser, Countryman, Shure, AKG, etc), sweetening this warmth pot even more.

These are only a few of the many factors in the "warmth" of the early Tamas.

I'm a bass player who only occasionally bangs on drums for fun and I found this post very interesting and well-written.

 

And also, Hi Neil!! 1022.gif

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A lot of good points have been made about Neil's drum sound. It is a shame that the best drummer on Earth is victim to bad mixing.

 

One thing that influences what we hear/don't hear is something called "gate". Gate really limits room noise. So a snare that rings may sound dead. Cymbals don't ring as loudly.

 

Notice how you can BARELY hear Neil's hi-hats or ride cymbals lately? Too much gate, and probably too much compression, too.

 

That, and 80 layers of guitar and other instruments hurt the sound.

 

The brand of drums Neil plays probably have little to do with the final sound.

 

Whoever mixed the R30 DVD should be in charge of mixing/engineering their next project. His drums were great on that DVD.

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QUOTE (zeppelinrules @ Sep 25 2012, 03:02 PM)
A lot of good points have been made about Neil's drum sound. It is a shame that the best drummer on Earth is victim to bad mixing.

One thing that influences what we hear/don't hear is something called "gate". Gate really limits room noise. So a snare that rings may sound dead. Cymbals don't ring as loudly.

Notice how you can BARELY hear Neil's hi-hats or ride cymbals lately? Too much gate, and probably too much compression, too.

That, and 80 layers of guitar and other instruments hurt the sound.

The brand of drums Neil plays probably have little to do with the final sound.

Whoever mixed the R30 DVD should be in charge of mixing/engineering their next project. His drums were great on that DVD.

The guy who did R-30 mixed and engineered CA.

 

 

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