Clockwork Angels material is being overlooked

[Astroboy2112]

Tommysawyer and goober

 

 

If you guys dont think nostalgia doesnt play a factor on whether people like or don't like songs on the setlist you're seriously delusional. The reasons people are clamoring for Jacobs Ladder and 70's songs is because of that nostalgia factor. I guarantee to you that if Clockwork Angels would've been on Permanent Waves and Jacobs Ladder would've been on CA people would've been complaining about the absence of Clockwork Angels and only the "fanboys" would've be looking forward to hearing Jacobs Ladder.

 

and not liking a song because you dont like it it's completely bogus. Anybody who likes or dislikes something has a reason for it. I dont like opera.WHy? Because that particular style of singing doesnt appeal to me. If people liked or disliked something for no reason at all then there wouldn't be any movie/music/product reviews, etc... I dont like this cd! WHy? uh I dunno, i dont like it. Product reviews on websites would all read " I dont like it", "I like it" instead of paragraphs. It doesnt work that way. People bother reading reviews because they want to know people's opinions. Everybody has a reason for liking or not liking something. I don't like this cd! Why you dont like it? I dont like the production, sounds dated, drums sound like garbage cans, singer is out of tune, etc, etc. There's always a reason why people dont like something or why people like something. You just dont like or like something just because...

 

Anybody who has been reading posts from Rush fans since the cd came out and when the tour started can attest that there is a portion of fans who simply dont care for Clockwork Angels and is not just cuz "they dont like it". I'll give you a few reasons based on some of the stuff i read.

 

1. Its a new record and there's a segment of Rush fandom that simply doesnt care about any new material. There was even a guy who posted here who said that he went to a show and felt like he didnt see the "real" Rush cuz they were playing all this new stuff he didnt recognize as if Clockwork Angels was made by some other band. Some fans simply have preconceived notions about any and all records after ( insert either 1981 or 1987 here) and really dont give the material a fair shake.

 

2. Some fans simply dismissed the record after a listen or two because they didn't find it catchy right away like prior records. I seen guys on youtube and on written reviews dismiss this record after just a listen or 2. CA is complex stuff, you really do need to listen to it more than a couple of times to fully get it. It's 66 mins long not 36-40 mins long like the old records. Pretty much every Rush fan has had at some point a change of opinion in regards to a record after repeated listens.

 

3. It's no big surprise than every generation likes their gen's music more than the others. Some fans simply dont feel like Rush's new music sounds like their generation's music. In this respect CA can be a challenging listen because there are many fans that dont really listen to any of the modern bands currently influencing Rush's CA sound. It's just hard to get into music from a different generation than the one you grew up and are familiar with. Doesnt matter if you are a teenager hearing 80's music for the first time or an old 70's rocker listening to Nirvana for the 1st time. It's just hard to like something that sounds so different. Rush certainly doesnt sound like AFTK on CA.

 

 

4. Some fans dismissed the material because they felt the mix was too loud, it made their ears bleed, too muddy, etc Rock music just gets louder and heavier every generation and some fans think this modern stuff is just too much for them. Adjusting to Rush's modern sounds has been a major issue since T4E whether fans realize it or not.

 

5. Some fans simply want to hear the hits.

 

6. Some fans from what i seen think that liking any modern rush makes them "fanboys" and apparently that's a horrible thing.

 

 

I mean there's tons of reasons why people have been complaining about the setlist and about all the new songs being played, about CA etc, etc It's fine, I understand why some people dont really dig the record even after giving it a chance but I just wished some of these folks gave the material a fair shake live; that's all.Even if you found the mix too loud or whatnot the material is really shining live and should not be so easily dismissed as just "new Rush, meh" as I seen a some ppl do. If you gave it a shot and still didnt like it that's fine but as hardcore fans shouldn't we encourage other fans to give this new material a chance? I remember when fans actually told their friends about the new Rush and stuff. Dont really get the whole "fanboy" thing some ppl have towards fans that actually like music by their fav band.

 

 

...the people raise their hands

Edited September 26, 2012 by Astroboy2112

[An Enemy Without]

Sorry, but no. Just no.

[Duke1]

Really like Clockwork Angels, been a fan since 1980 and it's a top 5 album for me (1. Hemispheres, 2. Pictures, 3. Waves, 4. Windows, 5. Angels).

[Pound of Obscure]

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 25 2012, 10:10 PM)

4. Some fans dismissed the material because they felt the mix was too loud, it made their ears bleed, too muddy, etc Rock music just gets louder and heavier every generation and some fans think this modern stuff is just too much for them. Adjusting to Rush's modern sounds has been a major issue since T4E whether fans realize it or not.

This has been my issue, although I didn't dismiss the album.

 

Poor sound quality is not a generational issue where older dudes don't like the "new" sound of today's music. Louder is not worse in my mind. Muddy, fuzzy noise is.

 

Poor digital recording technique is not a "new style" or "new sound" Rush has developed. Its just poor recording techniques of the industry. They have fallen prey like most everyone else. That doesn't make it good or ok.

 

Its not Rush's music, or being influenced by younger bands that's the problem, its the poor sound quality. The two have nothing to do with each other.

[Astroboy2112]

It is a generational issue! Parents in the 70's were telling their kids that Black Sabath/Led Zeppelin stuff their kids were listening too sounded too loud, too murky, made their ears bleed, etc "Turn that down!" Same thing happened before, same thing just keeps happening. In the 80's the metal bands were too loud, in the 90's the alternative bands were too loud for my parents, "put that down! Sounds horrible! It's just noise!"

 

Now Rush fans are 50 years old and rock music has just kept on going louder and louder. 10's>00's>90's>80's>70's>60's>50's You think it sounds poor cuz your listening to it from your generation's perspective whether you realize it or not. If I play you Linkin Park, Mastodon, Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, etc records you would say the same thing. "Sounds poor! No dynamics! It's badly mixed & mastered! They have fallen prey to today's poor recording techs " but is it poor quality to the target audience? Hell no! The new gen loves that sound because it's their sound; different from previous ones.

 

Rush obviously got Nick cuz they listened to his records. They didnt get him without researching his work. Rush's sound on CA is only poor if you listen to it looking for the same qualities of previous generations. Rush's not aiming for that, Rush's aimed for a contemporary sound and they achieved it. That's why modern critics were so complementary of the music and the sound. Lots of reviews mentioned how relevant the band sounded and how powerful the record sounded. In all the professional reviews I read of CA I never read one where the critic said the album sounded poor or was badly mixed/mastered. The reason is that music reviewers are knowledgeable/familiar/used to the current rock sound and it's not a problem to them where-areas some Rush fans are not and listen to it from a previous generations perspective.

 

A bad sounding record is a bad sounding record, Exhibit A Vapor Trails, but this is not it. This is a fantastic sounding modern record that will only sound too loud/murky to people that find that all modern rock is mixed and mastered the wrong way anyway.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Astroboy2112

[Jomboni]

I wouldn't go that far... the production on this album could definitely be better. Hell, just listen to the vinyl version compared to the cd and it's like night and day.

 

And I say that as a longtime Mastodon fan (the rest of those bands you mentioned can go fly a kite as far as I'm concerned!)

[Pound of Obscure]

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 26 2012, 01:28 PM)

It is a generational issue! Parents in the 70's were telling their kids that Black Sabath/Led Zeppelin stuff their kids were listening too sounded too loud, too murky, made their ears bleed, etc "Turn that down!" Same thing happened before, same thing just keeps happening. In the 80's the metal bands were too loud, in the 90's the alternative bands were too loud for my parents, "put that down! Sounds horrible! It's just noise!" Now Rush fans are 50 years old and rock music has just kept on going louder and louder. 10's>00's>90's>80's>70's>60's>50's You think it sounds poor cuz your listening to it from your generation's perspective whether you realize it or not. If I play you Linkin Park, Mastodon, Slipknot, Avenged Sevenfold, etc records you would say the same thing. "Sounds poor! No dynamics! It's badly mixed & mastered! They have fallen prey to today's poor recording techs " but is it poor quality to the target audience? Hell no! The new gen loves that sound because it's their sound; different from previous ones. Rush obviously got Nick cuz they listened to his records. They didnt get him without researching his work. Rush's sound on CA is only poor if you listen to it looking for the same qualities of previous generations. Rush's not aiming for that, Rush's aimed for a contemporary sound and they achieved it. That's why modern critics were so complementary of the music and the sound. Lots of reviews mentioned how relevant the band sounded and how powerful the record sounded. In all the professional reviews I read of CA I never read one where the critic said the album sounded poor or was badly mixed/mastered. The reason is that music reviewers are knowledgeable/familiar/used to the current rock sound and it's not a problem to them where-areas some Rush fans are not and listen to it from a previous generations perspective. A bad sounding record is a bad sounding record, Exhibit A Vapor Trails, but this is not it. This is a fantastic sounding modern record that will only sound too loud/murky to people that find that all modern rock is mixed and mastered the wrong way anyway.

So your argument is that Rush intended the album to sound muddy and fuzzy like it does because that is the new sound? Seriously?

 

I'm sorry. I don't buy that. It is simply the nature of the way things are recorded and also a product of the loudness wars. Not a desired result. Just because most cd's sound like that now doesn't mean the music was written to sound that way. VT is an extreme example of this, CA the same but a little less so. If they didn't want VT to sound like it did, they didn't want CA to sound like this either. Even Nick was making excuses for it before CA came out. The sound issues on CA are glaring and were not like that live.

 

I like my music loud and I like a lot of new stuff. Loud and crap sound quality are not synonomous.

[Guilhermemay]

[mazyyz]

Unlike previous concerts where Rush saturated the new album, I am looking forward to the CA material.

[Tommy Sawyer]

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 25 2012, 11:10 PM)

and not liking a song because you dont like it it's completely bogus. Anybody who likes or dislikes something has a reason for it. I dont like opera.WHy? Because that particular style of singing doesnt appeal to me.

Why don't you like that particular style of voice?

 

It's a double-edged sword.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but your whole argument was sort of bogus for me.

[An Enemy Without]

QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Sep 26 2012, 10:16 PM)

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 25 2012, 11:10 PM) and not liking a song because you dont like it it's completely bogus. Anybody who likes or dislikes something has a reason for it. I dont like opera.WHy? Because that particular style of singing doesnt appeal to me. Why don't you like that particular style of voice?   It's a double-edged sword.         Sorry, but your whole argument was sort of bogus for me. Sort of?

[Earthshine_sf]

Other than the mastering/loudness debate, this is an interesting thread.

 

I really do think the "nostalgia factor" is enormous. There is simply nothing that Rush could record today that could compete with the nostalgia we all have for the "classic" Rush tracks - there is simply too much emotional "baggage" (in the good sense), attached to the classic tracks. There is a "magic" attached to the classic tracks that is a function of 1) the age of the tracks, and 2) the age of us, the audience, when we first heard those tracks. Even to rabid fans like ourselves, music is just not as big a part of our life now, compared to when we were 16.

 

That doesn't mean that CA is not one of Rush's best albums ever (I believe it is).

 

Can't wait to see most of this amazing record played live!

 

[presto123]

No question CA is one of their best. I think they can top it if they decide to record again. A little cleaner guitar sound and a couple less straight ahead songs and a few more keys and we could have a modern day MP.

[Xanaseb]

QUOTE (LittleRed @ Sep 20 2012, 08:39 AM)

I am a long time Rush fan. I really enjoy all their material. I believe one of the reasons why they are still rocking is because they have made changes over the years. CA is not Xanadu or JL but it is just as good in it's own way. My dd and I have loved it from the beginning. Every single song is great IMHO. We listen to all Rush albums and we feel this is one of their best. We loved seeing it live and were ecstatic they played so many songs from the album.

Well said!!

 

JL is one of my favourite Rush songs, but oh well, they chose not to include it, not the end of the world..

 

I'm just so ecstatic that we have such a brilliant new album to listen to, and that LIVE it'll be even more awesome

 

[losingit2k]

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 19 2012, 09:50 PM)

If you put all ur biased nostalgia aside as well as the "anything after 81 is crap and fans are blind for liking it" mentality and give the CA songs a chance with an open mind ( i know all that is near impossible for some people here)I think you would agree that the string versions of Caravan + Clockwork Angels + The Anarchist + Carnies +7 Cities + the Wreckers + Halo Effect + Headlong Flight + The Garden are on par quality wise with anything from the 70's or 80's including the mythical Jacob's Ladder. Im listening to a PA bootleg i got from Dime a Dozen and these songs are absolutely mind blowing live with strings. Even Halo Effect with the strings and new guitar intro sounds incredible! People are getting bent out of shape with the whole "they are not playing JL, and they are playing too many keyboard songs", that they are overlooking the brilliance of CA live. Some of these songs truly belong in the conversation of greatest Rush songs ever. Headlong Flight live with strings?! I mean WOW sounds as furious and badass as anything on ATWS. IMO Jacobs ladder gets part of it's acclaim because of it's length and status as an "Epic" but if you check how many times do you actually listen to it compared to other shorter Rush songs, you will find out that you don't listen to it that often. Yeah it's an awesome song but so is the CA stuff being played. AFTK, Hemispheres, PW...CA is right there folks. Don't take this masterpiece being played live with strings for granted fellow rushians.

I haven't stoped listening to it. I have also added to all different RUSH playlist and all the songs from CA hold great if not better than those from the 70's and 80's.

 

 

Try listening to Jacobs Ladder followed by 7 Cites of Gold. It will blow your mind. Together they have a very cool Wizard of Oz Vibe to them.

 

[Silas Lang]

I don't get why it seems such a ridiculous notion to some that CA can be considered among their very best or a masterpiece. Being a fan for over 30 years now, I see no reasonable argument against that viewpoint.

[greg2112]

QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Sep 24 2012, 09:50 AM)

Its currently number 10 on my list of Rush albums. Moved up a couple notches after the show. May drop again after the show exhilaration wanes. Everything is better and more exciting live. Its a GOOD album. I like it. Nothing classic about it. Nobody but us will remember it next year.

Ditto...very well said. I rank it 10th overall as well. A very good Rush album.

 

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 23 2012, 07:57 PM)

J2112YYZ, I know CA was generally well received but It's def being overlooked by the setlist complainers.

You can't reason with setlist complainers; they have their own unique and slightly pathological mentality. All you can do is ignore them and wish them well.....

[Tombstone Mountain]

QUOTE (Workaholic Man @ Sep 28 2012, 08:35 AM)

QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 23 2012, 07:57 PM) J2112YYZ, I know CA was generally well received but It's def being overlooked by the setlist complainers. You can't reason with setlist complainers; they have their own unique and slightly pathological mentality. All you can do is ignore them and wish them well..... Has seeing the Clockwork Angels tour elevated your view of the album. Is there a song or two whose stock has risen with seeing the live performance?

[Principled Man]

QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Sep 28 2012, 08:43 AM)

QUOTE (Workaholic Man @ Sep 28 2012, 08:35 AM) QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 23 2012, 07:57 PM) J2112YYZ, I know CA was generally well received but It's def being overlooked by the setlist complainers. You can't reason with setlist complainers; they have their own unique and slightly pathological mentality. All you can do is ignore them and wish them well..... Has seeing the Clockwork Angels tour elevated your view of the album. Is there a song or two whose stock has risen with seeing the live performance? Clockwork Angels is a masterpiece; seeing it performed live merely confirmed my view of the album.....   The Show gave the album an extra dimension, which was unforgettable. The light kit, which was basically inert for the first set, came alive and blew me away. Visually, The Wreckers was the high point; the white lights "raining" down on the audience was simply magical.... Musically and vocally, Headlong Flight was the peak. The head-banger in me revelled in Clockwork Angels-The Anarchist-Carnies. By the time The Garden was played, I was just soaking it all in with awe and gratitude. It's the Greatest spectacle the band has ever given us fans....

[Tombstone Mountain]

QUOTE (Workaholic Man @ Sep 28 2012, 09:29 AM)

QUOTE (Tombstone Mountain @ Sep 28 2012, 08:43 AM) QUOTE (Workaholic Man @ Sep 28 2012, 08:35 AM) QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 23 2012, 07:57 PM) J2112YYZ, I know CA was generally well received but It's def being overlooked by the setlist complainers. You can't reason with setlist complainers; they have their own unique and slightly pathological mentality. All you can do is ignore them and wish them well..... Has seeing the Clockwork Angels tour elevated your view of the album. Is there a song or two whose stock has risen with seeing the live performance? Clockwork Angels is a masterpiece; seeing it performed live merely confirmed my view of the album.....   The Show gave the album an extra dimension, which was unforgettable. The light kit, which was basically inert for the first set, came alive and blew me away. Visually, The Wreckers was the high point; the white lights "raining" down on the audience was simply magical.... Musically and vocally, Headlong Flight was the peak. The head-banger in me revelled in Clockwork Angels-The Anarchist-Carnies. By the time The Garden was played, I was just soaking it all in with awe and gratitude. It's the Greatest spectacle the band has ever given us fans....   thanks for that...i've been very curious about people's perception of the album after hearing it live. Geddy is so strong live--WOW!!! Getting better with age. Glad they abandoned the stuff that is so difficult on his voice   I'm amazed how they have come full circle to playing this molten fury and with reckless abandon. They are playing f'n METAL with this effort.   This album is such a giant. I rank AFTK and PeW's as the equals to Clockwork Angels in terms of greatness.   Booujzhe got them to this place...I hope he stays on board for another!     Glad you had a great time man...so did I!

[Tommy Sawyer]

QUOTE (An Enemy Without @ Sep 26 2012, 11:26 PM)

QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Sep 26 2012, 10:16 PM) QUOTE (Astroboy2112 @ Sep 25 2012, 11:10 PM) and not liking a song because you dont like it it's completely bogus. Anybody who likes or dislikes something has a reason for it. I dont like opera.WHy? Because that particular style of singing doesnt appeal to me. Why don't you like that particular style of voice?   It's a double-edged sword.         Sorry, but your whole argument was sort of bogus for me. Sort of?

[bootlegguy]

I can't wait to see The Garden played live tomorrow night with live strings. That song is mind blowing.

[An Enemy Without]

Honestly the more I think about this the more wrong it seems to me.

[chrsmat71]

I think it was my favorite part of the show. Fresh and amazing.

I enjoyed hearing the new material on the snakes and arrows tour four years ago.... but I LOVED the new material on this tour.