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Snakes and Arrows Vs. Clockwork Angels


tommyali
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For me, CA is superior to S&A in every way except one: production quality. CA has better songs, better solos, better instrument usage (more space for each instrument), better melodies, better singing, better pacing, better lyrics and better tempos. It also doesn't have any truly weak songs (minus BU2B2, which isn't really a song). S&A, on the other hand, was awash in mid-tempo, boring trudge-fests that went nowhere. The instrumentals were great, Far Cry is a modern classic, but nothing else shines. It is truly different than anything that they've ever done, but, to me, not in a good way. I like it, but it's on a completely different level of quality for me.
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QUOTE (Tick @ Aug 23 2012, 03:27 PM)
QUOTE (Gompers @ Aug 23 2012, 01:15 PM)
QUOTE (tommyali @ Aug 23 2012, 12:47 PM)
you are right, sorry.
no need to imply the "brainwashing".
I'm just surprised how many people are bashing S&A. We are Rush fans right?
I never bashed CA. I really think that S&A is better. Mix, by far.
CA is muddy. IMO. I can honestly say I am disappointed as a whole.

Just listened to S&A again. What a beautiful album!

Let 'em bash S&A. Chances are they liked VT quite a bit too.

 

I like the musical maturity of S&A, where CA seems like the band trying to be 20 again, which would work great if they were 20. With S&A, they branched out as the musicians they are, got outside the box, like they have always been known for. Many songs sound like new Rush. They used themselves for most of the album to find something different and creative.

 

With CA, they had Nick cheer-leading them to sound like the old days, and then he messed up the mix. CA has some great songs, like the title track and Headlong Flight, but from a dynamic perspective, the wall of sound encumbers those subtle things Rush has done so well in the past. It should be evident to Nick now that Rush is not Foo Fighters.

You both need to understand that not liking something isn't bashing it. I'm not a fan of Snakes And Arrows. Would you like me to say otherwise to make you both happy?

Hey, no-one was implying you. But if you read this entire post, there has been some S&A bashing indeed.

Cheers!

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QUOTE (av450 @ Aug 23 2012, 04:24 PM)
CA sounds terrible and Alex doesn't sound like he's even trying anymore. Still the best album since HYF or counterparts

HYF or Counterparts? Rush's two worst albums? Ouch, why diss so hard?

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QUOTE (LedRush @ Aug 23 2012, 04:33 PM)
QUOTE (av450 @ Aug 23 2012, 04:24 PM)
CA sounds terrible and Alex doesn't sound like he's even trying anymore. Still the best album since HYF or counterparts

HYF or Counterparts? Rush's two worst albums? Ouch, why diss so hard?

What I mean is that I might like CA better than Counterparts. If I do, then CA is the best album since HYF. HYF is in top 3 favourite rush albums so that's why it doesn't beat it. If that makes any sense.

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QUOTE (JoenataArctica @ Aug 23 2012, 03:03 PM)
Clockwork Angels is probably my favorite since Power Windows. That being said, there is not an album that I dislike at all!

yes.gif CA is way better than S&A. Arrows has some great stuff, but collectively as an album its my third least favorite, after T4E and RTB.

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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Aug 23 2012, 05:50 PM)
QUOTE (tommyali @ Aug 23 2012, 06:00 AM)
Am I the only one on the planet?

Did you see this poll?

 

http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?showtopic=75900

 

With 185 votes, CA is liked more by almost 89% of everyone. So, you're not the only one, but you are in a pretty small minority.

 

And welcome to the board!

Don't worry brother. I'm Cuban so I know how it feels to be in a minority.

 

wink.gif

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QUOTE (GeddyLeeRoth @ Aug 23 2012, 09:46 PM)
QUOTE (JoenataArctica @ Aug 23 2012, 03:03 PM)
Clockwork Angels is probably my favorite since Power Windows.  That being said, there is not an album that I dislike at all! 

yes.gif CA is way better than S&A. Arrows has some great stuff, but collectively as an album its my third least favorite, after T4E and RTB.

Damn that's harsh. What about Rush, Presto and Vapor Trails? They all rank lower than S&A for me

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QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Aug 23 2012, 11:13 AM)
QUOTE (DistantEarlyRushFan @ Aug 23 2012, 10:29 AM)
QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Aug 23 2012, 09:40 AM)
QUOTE (tommyali @ Aug 23 2012, 08:00 AM)
Am I the only one on the planet?

Its quite possible.

 

 

 

Snakes is an abomination. By far their worst album. Listening to it is a good laxative though. I guess that's something.

 

Welcome to the forum. smile.gif

You are an abomination

Child.

Old man

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The lyrics, the melodies and the playing style of one album versus the other are always going to be a matter of opinion, and hard to debate.

 

Having said that, I like both CA and S&A a lot. And while you can use the aspects I listed above to justify which one is better, there is one thing that's hard to argue:

Clockwork Angels is a much more interesting album. The Garden, in particular, is like nothing else they've ever done. And turning the album into a sci-fi novel? How cool is that?

 

I applaud the boys for pushing the boundaries, taking chances, and creating an actual album when I was wondering if I'd ever hear one again in my lifetime.

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QUOTE (Gompers @ Aug 23 2012, 09:15 AM)
QUOTE (tommyali @ Aug 23 2012, 12:47 PM)
you are right, sorry.
no need to imply the "brainwashing".
I'm just surprised how many people are bashing S&A. We are Rush fans right?
I never bashed CA. I really think that S&A is better. Mix, by far.
CA is muddy. IMO. I can honestly say I am disappointed as a whole.

Just listened to S&A again. What a beautiful album!

Let 'em bash S&A. Chances are they liked VT quite a bit too.

 

I like the musical maturity of S&A, where CA seems like the band trying to be 20 again, which would work great if they were 20. With S&A, they branched out as the musicians they are, got outside the box, like they have always been known for. Many songs sound like new Rush. They used themselves for most of the album to find something different and creative.

 

With CA, they had Nick cheer-leading them to sound like the old days, and then he messed up the mix. CA has some great songs, like the title track and Headlong Flight, but from a dynamic perspective, the wall of sound encumbers those subtle things Rush has done so well in the past. It should be evident to Nick now that Rush is not Foo Fighters.

goodpost.gif

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QUOTE (DistantEarlyRushFan @ Aug 23 2012, 10:20 PM)
QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Aug 23 2012, 11:13 AM)
QUOTE (DistantEarlyRushFan @ Aug 23 2012, 10:29 AM)
QUOTE (Pound of Obscure @ Aug 23 2012, 09:40 AM)
QUOTE (tommyali @ Aug 23 2012, 08:00 AM)
Am I the only one on the planet?

Its quite possible.

 

 

 

Snakes is an abomination. By far their worst album. Listening to it is a good laxative though. I guess that's something.

 

Welcome to the forum. smile.gif

You are an abomination

Child.

Old man

God, get a room you guys! tongue.gif

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QUOTE (Jomboni @ Aug 23 2012, 05:31 PM)
QUOTE (DistantEarlyRushFan @ Aug 23 2012, 10:26 AM)
S&A is arguably the best Rush album, lyrically.

See, I think this is probably their absolute bottom album in terms of lyrics. Not for the subject matter (honestly Neil can write as many "faith-bashing" songs as he wants), I just really think his lyrics were clunky and poorly delivered on this album. I like the music a lot, because it's a real 180 for the band, it doesn't really sound like anything else in their catalog. But I just get so embarassed by the lyrics that it ruins the album for me :/

This^

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QUOTE (Tick @ Aug 23 2012, 04:27 PM)
You both need to understand that not liking something isn't bashing it. I'm not a fan of Snakes And Arrows.

See metaldad's posts. smile.gif

Also, if memory serves, I recall Necro used to hate it quite a bit and would trash it.

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C.A. is a far better album than sa.

 

With snakes and arrows, rush were reaching for something they just could not grab, with clockwork angels, they have throttled it.

 

Musics is a lot of things, but with rush its the perfect balance between their interesting energized virtuoso playing and heartfelt lyrics, being full of conviction.

 

This album is full of conviction in what they were trying to do; a great representation of rush. What they do best! - exciting playing together with convincing and melodic songwriting.

 

Not sure if sa fulfills this criteria.

 

For me the lyrics on snakes and arrow are narrow personnel and at times forced, C.A. lyrics are both universal and interpersonal, flowing with conviction; the hallmark of a great great album.

 

CA is a classic album, my opinion is, it will be their dark side of the moon.

 

As john lennon said, a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorded. Sound issues do not get in the way of great songs, for me.

 

If the majority rule within the rush community, be a gauge for objectivity on what album is better, its very clear, C.A. is the better album.

Edited by condemned2bfree
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QUOTE (They Bow Defeated @ Aug 23 2012, 03:18 PM)
QUOTE (CygnusX-1Bk2 @ Aug 23 2012, 01:18 PM)
S&A is a much better album for many reasons. I wouldn't put it in my top 3 Rush albums by any stretch but it surpasses every other recent release going back to Counterparts. CP, S&A and Presto fall just below the 70s and 80's albums for me as those were the Rush albums I grew up with so I have a lot more emotional investment in those records but in terms of material and even productions S&A is head and shoulders above CA which to me is so badly squashed it is not listenable for the most part plus the material just does not have that same intensity and passion as the first 2 tracks. It's not horrible but it isn't great. S&A is great.

And yet only 11% of TRF members would agree with you...

 

http://www.therushforum.com/index.php?showtopic=75900

 

I like S&A a lot, but the second half is definitely dragged down by three mediocre tracks: Bravest Face, Good News First, We Hold On. If you leave out Hope and BU2B2, since they're both short "linking" songs, it's even more clear to me that CA is a stronger effort. IMO, the weakest CA song (Wish Them Well) is still stronger than BF, GNF, and WHO.

 

The strongest S&A songs (Far Cry, Armor and Sword, Faithless, Malnar) are very good, but IMO they can't quite hang with the likes of CA, The Anarchist, Seven Cities, Headlong Flight, The Wreckers, and The Garden.

 

EDIT: I do agree with you about the compression on CA vs. S&A, but for me it's more than made up for by the songs.

The final cut on S&A, to me, is the weakest, followed by The Larger Bowl. I really dig the rest of the songs immensely, including one of Rush's best instrumentals, TMMB. Hope and Malnar, albeit short, are real treats.

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By the way. I happen to be a big fan of "the larger bowl". JMO

I see that song doesn't seem to be a favorite.

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While I really like Snakes and Arrows a lot and felt it was a strong effort......no doubt for me Clockwork Angels is a better album overall.

 

The songs and the concept is fluid, the riffs are dazzling. And I love the lyrics and the complete story it brings to the table. A very visual album and something that Rush has not done in a long time. I have to go as far back as Power Windows for an album that really nails everything top to bottom. Playing, riffs, lyrics, mood.

 

Clockwork Angels is a new Rush classic.

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QUOTE (Gompers @ Aug 24 2012, 06:07 AM)
QUOTE (Tick @ Aug 23 2012, 04:27 PM)
You both need to understand that not liking something isn't bashing it. I'm not a fan of Snakes And Arrows.

See metaldad's posts. smile.gif

Also, if memory serves, I recall Necro used to hate it quite a bit and would trash it.

laugh.gif it sounds nothing like Rush to me. I don't want my fav bands to re-write the same album over and over again but Jesus , it sounds Nothing like the same band that wrote AFTK or Per Waves.

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QUOTE (metaldad @ Aug 24 2012, 09:46 AM)
QUOTE (Gompers @ Aug 24 2012, 06:07 AM)
QUOTE (Tick @ Aug 23 2012, 04:27 PM)
You both need to understand that not liking something isn't bashing it. I'm not a fan of Snakes And Arrows.

See metaldad's posts. smile.gif

Also, if memory serves, I recall Necro used to hate it quite a bit and would trash it.

laugh.gif it sounds nothing like Rush to me. I don't want my fav bands to re-write the same album over and over again but Jesus , it sounds Nothing like the same band that wrote AFTK or Per Waves.

Well I will say this, very few bands of the 70's Prog era have been able to capture that. If Rush had used all the tech from that day, it is possible the sound would be much closer, at that includes VT through CA.

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QUOTE (Gompers @ Aug 24 2012, 06:19 AM)

The final cut on S&A, to me, is the weakest, followed by The Larger Bowl. I really dig the rest of the songs immensely, including one of Rush's best instrumentals, TMMB. Hope and Malnar, albeit short, are real treats.

what final cut you referring to please?

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QUOTE (lifeson90 @ Aug 24 2012, 06:53 PM)
QUOTE (Gompers @ Aug 24 2012, 06:19 AM)

The final cut on S&A, to me, is the weakest, followed by The Larger Bowl. I really dig the rest of the songs immensely, including one of Rush's best instrumentals, TMMB. Hope and Malnar, albeit short, are real treats.

what final cut you referring to please?

final cut = final song = we hold on

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QUOTE (Slack jaw gaze @ Aug 24 2012, 08:58 PM)
QUOTE (tommyali @ Aug 23 2012, 08:00 AM)
Am I the only one on the planet? Too me, Snakes and Arrows is just a better album from start to finish. A beautiful album. I would put it in my top three all time Rush albums.

I think CA, S&A, and Vapor Trails are top 5 albums.

I feel like this too even though I've been listening for 32 years. It's not even that they are better albums than the rest. I just want to hear what my favorite musicians are doing "right now". It is so rare that such a long lived band can continue to release relevant music. Who else do you get this from?

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