Candide (or Optimism)

[CygnusGal]

I have not read another thread regarding Candide explicitly. Please forgive me if this discussion is replicated elsewhere (a pointer to said dicussion on this thread would be nice too, if you know of one). Thanks.

 

That being said...

 

I find a few things helpful for me to keep in mind when reading classic works like Candide. 1) Remember the times; Voltaire lived in a time when religion was a (usually the) central aspect of life. This is reflected in thousands of years of literary tradition. The influence of religion on pre-"modern-era" literature is difficult to understate. 2) Voltaire was popular, financially successful and influential partially because the veiled references and satire appealed to a broad base and was therefore interpreted by different readers in different ways. 3) He provides an insight into the times, but it is difficult for a 21th century mind (or 20th, depending on when you first read it) to think like he did. We (well most of us, scholars excepted) don't have reference of events or morays of 1760s France. Interestingly, some of Voltaire's satire holds up quite well today.

 

Neil's reference reaches back in our timeline to our collective consciousness (part of Voltaire's - and Neil's - brilliance) with lost cities and loves, pirates, adventure and philosophical underpinnings, I find the album's narrative to be quite ingenious.

 

Candide first appeared in the 1760s - kind of "Blair Witch"-ish in its origin - as it's quoted as being "translated from the German of Doctor Ralph with the additions which were found in the Doctor's pocket when he died at Minden in the Year of Our Lord 1759". That theme (lost artifact/relic found with a new telling of an old story) appears on the song/album 2112 and the album CA (hence, the 21:12 on the cover I think) where we are given a much more defined world. Instead of a guitar upending a society, presumably in our own future in the year 2112, we are presented with a philosophical debate from a different timeline that is aware our events in our own timeline.

 

To me, Neil has a reputation of being well read, introspective and reflective of current trends in culture and his own philosophical leanings. A fan of many genres, fiction and non-fiction, Neil brings his thoughtful viewpoint to bear when composing lyrics for both the specific songs and the general concept that ties them together and constitutes an album. With CA, Neil composes very much in the tradition of the classic writers. He satirizes, he postulates, he provokes thought. As he references Candide as "...a story from another timeline..." (and like Voltaire in that timeline), Neil hides bits and pieces of his views in the writing (you write what you know), but essentially and ultimately, like Candide, the clockwork universe is a work of fiction.

 

Is it "all for the best" (Candide's assertion which aligns with BU2B) or is it just "some bizarre test"? "It is what it is, and whatever. Time is still the infinite jest" - the CA protagonist answers.

 

Per Candide's view: had person <x> not gone though experience <y>, they wouldn't be the person that they are today ("I wouldn't trade tomorrow for today" says the great prophet Gruber from CA). Indeed, all must be for the best since everything has a purpose and serves that purpose in the best way possible. Candide retained his "all is for the best" philosophy despite the travels and trevails that were visited upon him. I believe the revelation of the garden is the joy of the cultivating/working the soil of one's life- i.e. what Pangloss had been telling him all along was true.

 

As in Candide, I propose that the CA protagonist still believes everything he was BU2B despite BU2B2 and everything that led up to it. In fact, his experiences have only reinforced his beliefs; he does indeed live in the best of all possible worlds and all is for the truly for the best, otherwise he wouldn't be able to tend his garden. Only his perspective has changed. The highs in life are paid for with the cost of the lows.

 

As an aside, and as an intellectual exercise: Presuming *everything* Neil has written since 1997 has been based in anger, grief and loss (a premise with which I do not agree), the CA album through its Candide reference explicitly discredit that conclusion and prove Neil's healing is complete even though his memories remain. IMO, that's how he writes songs like The Anarchist and The Wreckers so well.

 

Kind of a different interpretation than some of my previous posts, but re-reading Candide got me thinking - always dangerous. I find my thoughts on CA continue to evolve.

 

Hopefully, I'm not as Pangloss; taking the maximum number of words to communicate the smallest possible idea. I just can't stop thinking big.

 

[USB Connector]

I disagree. I feel that Neil drew a lot of inspiration from Candide and added the cynic ending that 2112 had. In Candide they learn their lesson and live much better by tending to their garden. In CA I felt that he had learned the same lesson and tending to his garden was almost a surrender for him.

 

Here's why I see it that way:

BU2B: "I was brought up to believe, belief has failed me now". He rejected his beliefs.

Wish them Well: He couldn't make the impact he wanted so all he can do is wish everyone well

The garden: Basically him saying fine, I couldn't change what I wanted, so leave me alone so I can try to live as happily as possible.

 

That's my interpretation in point form.

[CygnusGal]

QUOTE (USB Connector @ Jul 14 2012, 07:05 PM)

I disagree. I feel that Neil drew a lot of inspiration from Candide and added the cynic ending that 2112 had. In Candide they learn their lesson and live much better by tending to their garden. In CA I felt that he had learned the same lesson and tending to his garden was almost a surrender for him. Here's why I see it that way: BU2B: "I was brought up to believe, belief has failed me now". He rejected his beliefs. Wish them Well: He couldn't make the impact he wanted so all he can do is wish everyone well The garden: Basically him saying fine, I couldn't change what I wanted, so leave me alone so I can try to live as happily as possible. That's my interpretation in point form.

Interesting.

 

My reasoning - bullet points, if you will are:

 

BU2B2 (I presume you meant) certainly represents a crisis of the spirit. Candide undergoes simlar crisis. He does say in Surinam (after Eldorado - one of our timeline's fabled Lost Cities of Gold) in Chapter 19 with "--Oh, Pangloss! cried Candide you had no notion of these abominations! I'm through, I must give up your optimism after all." and then Candide despairs "This legal proceeding completed the despair of Candide. In fact he had experienced miseries a thousand times more painful, but the coldness of the judge, and that of the merchant who had robbed him, roused his bile and plunged him into a black melancholy. The malice of men rose up before his spirit in all its ugliness, and his mind dwelt only on gloomy thoughts." he despairs all the way until he is reunited with his beloved Cunegonde.

 

Wish Them Well is reconciliation of The Anarchist (to my mind at least). All of the forces that Candide encountered and disappointments he faced - the loss of his riches, the cruelty of man, the fact the he really doesn't want to marry his life long desire of Cunegonde, but feels obliged to due to Cunegonde's eagerness and her brother's extreme impertenance. Once the he realizes that all thoughts of riches don't make one happy - Chapter 30 Candide's speaking to the Turk farmer "I have only twenty acres, replied the Turk; I cultivate them with my children, and the work keeps us from three great evils, boredom, vice and poverty." then "--Great place, said Pangloss, is very perilous in the judgement of all philosophers;" to which Candide replied:

 

The Garden. "--I know also, said Candide that we must cultivate our garden." to which Martin replied "--Let's work without speculating, for it is the only way of rendering life bearable." Pangloss adds (rather verbosely): "--All events are linked together in the best of all possible worlds..." "--That is very well put, said Candide, but we must cultivate our garden."

 

That was my reasoning. I found it to be rather inverted to my original thoughts and was surprised by the circular conclusion. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...

 

There is truly nothing autobiographical about this record, imo, and I think the Candide reference proves it.

 

Thanks for the feedback! It really pushes me to think.

 

[spock]

Okay, forgive me posting THE ENTIRE lyrics of BU2B2, but it's funny that this posting hit today because I was reading through them while I was at the Taco Bell drive through (yes, even pointy-eared hobgoblins make an occasional run for the border).

 

I realized that BU2B2 was not the same ending as 2112, just the opposite. The first two ?stanzas? start down the "lifeblood spills over road" but I"ll rewrite a little (may Neil forgive me): No clockwork universe philosophy consoles me. Ergo: The Watchmaker's way of things doesn't work for the protagonist, he has to give in or find a new philosophy; which he does. In fact, he starts making some foreshadowing of The Garden (find a measure of love and laughter) and then concludes by saying (rewriting, again (must.not.anger.Neil)) 'life may not be great, but I was brought up to find something to believe in'

 

Queue the crashing sounds of Wish Them Well (so long to anger!)

 

To me, BU2B2 is (now, for me) an essential song: the protagonist hits rock bottom, discards the Clockwork way-o'-the-world, and picks himself up. Based on his 'new' belief, he walks away from the nattering naybobs of negativism, and settles down to tend his garden (picture Samwise, arriving back from the Havens: "Well, I'm home!).

 

That's enough philosophizing for this stardate...

 

 

I was brought up to believe

Belief has failed me now

The bright glow of optimism

Abandoned me somehow

 

Belief has failed me now

Life goes from bad to worse

No philosophy consoles me

In a clockwork universe

 

Life goes from bad to worse

I still choose to live

Find a measure of love and laughter

And another measure to give

 

I still choose to live

And give, even while I grieve

Though the balance tilts against me

I was brought up to believe

 

[jc4gd]

I like what you're saying especially.......

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Jul 14 2012, 02:41 PM)

As an aside, and as an intellectual exercise: Presuming *everything* Neil has written since 1997 has been based in anger, grief and loss (a premise with which I do not agree), the CA album through its Candide reference explicitly discredit that conclusion and prove Neil's healing is complete even though his memories remain.  IMO, that's how he writes songs like The Anarchist and The Wreckers so well.

 

[Bastille Night]

[USB Connector]

QUOTE (CygnusGal @ Jul 14 2012, 09:05 PM)

QUOTE (USB Connector @ Jul 14 2012, 07:05 PM) I disagree. I feel that Neil drew a lot of inspiration from Candide and added the cynic ending that 2112 had. In Candide they learn their lesson and live much better by tending to their garden. In CA I felt that he had learned the same lesson and tending to his garden was almost a surrender for him. Here's why I see it that way: BU2B: "I was brought up to believe, belief has failed me now". He rejected his beliefs. Wish them Well: He couldn't make the impact he wanted so all he can do is wish everyone well The garden: Basically him saying fine, I couldn't change what I wanted, so leave me alone so I can try to live as happily as possible. That's my interpretation in point form. Interesting.   My reasoning - bullet points, if you will are:   BU2B2 (I presume you meant) certainly represents a crisis of the spirit. Candide undergoes simlar crisis. He does say in Surinam (after Eldorado - one of our timeline's fabled Lost Cities of Gold) in Chapter 19 with "--Oh, Pangloss! cried Candide you had no notion of these abominations! I'm through, I must give up your optimism after all." and then Candide despairs "This legal proceeding completed the despair of Candide. In fact he had experienced miseries a thousand times more painful, but the coldness of the judge, and that of the merchant who had robbed him, roused his bile and plunged him into a black melancholy. The malice of men rose up before his spirit in all its ugliness, and his mind dwelt only on gloomy thoughts." he despairs all the way until he is reunited with his beloved Cunegonde.   Wish Them Well is reconciliation of The Anarchist (to my mind at least). All of the forces that Candide encountered and disappointments he faced - the loss of his riches, the cruelty of man, the fact the he really doesn't want to marry his life long desire of Cunegonde, but feels obliged to due to Cunegonde's eagerness and her brother's extreme impertenance. Once the he realizes that all thoughts of riches don't make one happy - Chapter 30 Candide's speaking to the Turk farmer "I have only twenty acres, replied the Turk; I cultivate them with my children, and the work keeps us from three great evils, boredom, vice and poverty." then "--Great place, said Pangloss, is very perilous in the judgement of all philosophers;" to which Candide replied:   The Garden. "--I know also, said Candide that we must cultivate our garden." to which Martin replied "--Let's work without speculating, for it is the only way of rendering life bearable." Pangloss adds (rather verbosely): "--All events are linked together in the best of all possible worlds..." "--That is very well put, said Candide, but we must cultivate our garden."   That was my reasoning. I found it to be rather inverted to my original thoughts and was surprised by the circular conclusion. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose...   There is truly nothing autobiographical about this record, imo, and I think the Candide reference proves it.   Thanks for the feedback! It really pushes me to think.   I see where you're coming from and I think it's a great interpretation, but I think you might be confusing some of the details of Candide with CA. In Candide, they find El Dorado and leave with the riches, in CA the protagonist does not find any of the seven cities and narrowly escapes with his life. It is implied that he never had much to begin with as he left a farmer's life to go to the city and tour a little with the carnies.

[HowItIs]

Great discussion! Good points all around. Me, I don't think these lyrics are overtly biographical. There may be some subconscious connection but the same could be said of anyone who has lived 60 years on this earth with all of the joys and sorrows that includes.

 

Neil has said many, many times that books influence his lyrics. From one line, to an entire song. It amuses me that some people are great with Rand influencing an album but if something they don't like influences him, it's so awful and Neil is a horrible person for doing it.

 

 

 

[CygnusGal]

QUOTE (USB Connector @ Jul 15 2012, 10:04 PM)

I see where you're coming from and I think it's a great interpretation, but I think you might be confusing some of the details of Candide with CA. In Candide, they find El Dorado and leave with the riches, in CA the protagonist does not find any of the seven cities and narrowly escapes with his life. It is implied that he never had much to begin with as he left a farmer's life to go to the city and tour a little with the carnies.

 

Are you referring to a specific passage I misquoted or timeline I transposed?

 

Yes, CA is a different narrative. I believe I referenced that in my initial post. Candide is a similar narrative (not identical - e.g. there is no "Anarchist" in Candide) and concludes in opposition of 2112. CA concludes identically to Candide.

 

That is why the Candide reference is there - it is a demonstration of Candide's philosophy in action. That's why it resonated with CA protagonist.

 

Nice to have thoughtful conversation.

 

Thanks.

[CygnusGal]

I am now starting to think about the satiric aspect to Candide. Apparently, debating the end of Candide is terribly contentious. Great minds (certainly greater than mine) have been debating this for hundreds years and will continue to due so for hundreds more (hopefully).

 

But I still love the dimension that it adds to the CA story.

 

Is the end a rebuke of Pangloss' ideas and that Candide's final statement of "That is well put, but know we must tend our garden" that would refute optimism and make it a scathing satire...all is for the best indeed and look at what happened (pirates, shipwrecked, lost cities and loves)?!? Most scholars seem to interpret Candide this way - brutal satire against Leibniz "best of all possible worlds".

 

Did the CA protagonist read Candide in the same light as Voltaire intended - full of satire?

 

There is much to consider...

[Running Rebel]

I am now starting to think about the satiric aspect to Candide. Apparently, debating the end of Candide is terribly contentious. Great minds (certainly greater than mine) have been debating this for hundreds years and will continue to due so for hundreds more (hopefully).

 

But I still love the dimension that it adds to the CA story.

 

Is the end a rebuke of Pangloss' ideas and that Candide's final statement of "That is well put, but know we must tend our garden" that would refute optimism and make it a scathing satire...all is for the best indeed and look at what happened (pirates, shipwrecked, lost cities and loves)?!? Most scholars seem to interpret Candide this way - brutal satire against Leibniz "best of all possible worlds".

 

Did the CA protagonist read Candide in the same light as Voltaire intended - full of satire?

 

There is much to consider...

 

Hah, wanted to dig up an old post! I just listened to Candide on Audiobook for fun. I had read it well over 30 years ago and my memory of it was distorted. This time I laughed all the way through and entwined with the Clockwork Angels story, comparing the storylines and concepts, it was really just a fantastic blast! I can't believe I didn't do this sooner. :) It definately wants to make you put the album back on give it another fresh ride. Make no bones about it, Candide is friggin' hilarious.

 

As to the comparisons above... I tended to focus on both Neil and Voltaires dismissal of some "intrinsic value" that makes this or any particular world "the best of all possible worlds". Whether that intrinsic value be from "God", who would obviously as an omnipotent being create the "best of all possible worlds", or any other views on intrinsic values (libertarians views of rights). When Voltaire found El Dorado, (The best of all possible worlds!) he didn't even realize it, which highlights the frailty of the human condition in the first place, haha. They seem in agreement that "intrinsic values" don't really exist. (Not that they actually say it!)

 

Both Owen and Candide were driven by an "optimistic determinism". Pangloss's first lesson to Candide is that "there cannot possibly be an effect without a cause" and that "everything is made to serve an end." If God made the world, then the presence of evil presents a problem or malice towards his own people he created. Then, and now, Christians dealt with this problem by rationalizing it's cause and effect to justify every instance of evil in the terms of a "greater good". Pangloss says, "Private misfortunes make for public welfare," And thus, the hilarity of Candide running across maimed bodies being shot at, or being whipped by an entire army (1000 people) all the while claiming, "all is for the best!" is pretty damn funny. While I believe in determinism, I am far less optimistic :)

 

I also couldn't help but think of the similarity of Bilbo Baggins, who lived in the best of all possible worlds (of a sort) and yet couldn't refrain from leaving for adventure during his youth or resist the "loudwater's flow". Just as Owen couldn't stop thinking "Big", or Candide couldn't resist the pull of his dear, Cunegonde. Or Tom Sawyer's zeal to hit the river..

 

Voltaire's notion is that that eventually you come to terms with life by "tending your own garden". Neil's dismisal of people that bring evil or turmoil to your life is to simply "wish them well" in similar fashion.. While personally, I'm not one to run (hide) from a social injustice as Neil seems to suggest in CA, I can get behind the notion that there are some things out of your control. (wars, e.g.) And sometimes it's simply easier to avoid and exclude those things/people from your life. Ultimately, Candide (Neil) is right, we still have to tend our own gardens and make our own place in it. I think the lesson is that the best of all possible worlds is ultimately what you make it to be.

 

There are so many other themes entwined between the two books.

 

Free Will- The notion that man has the power to decide his own fate. Martin says it's the difference between men and animals, proposing the notion that social progress is determinant upon it. All the while, it doesn't.

 

Evil- Is evil an intrinsic part of creation or a simple matter of perspective, an arbitrary and random quirk of fate?

 

Pity- They often discuss who is the "most wretched of all mortals". Which King at the dinner table had it worse? Martin and Candide explore that concept in depth. Owen deals with frequent injustice. In many respect they warn against those that seek (excess) pity, and the moral paralysis it can create. Extreme adversity in both tales seem to be a part of the human condition, and well, it can certainly put it in perspective for us today. In CA's case, the Anarchist rails against perceived injustice in the opposite fashion.

 

And probably the theme I missed or missunderstood the most back in the day was the way Voltaire dealt with "criticism vs. pleasure" and the notion that only through "trashing" art, can some derive any pleasure from it. The scene wear Candide goes through the great masters books one by one is brilliant. At what point do we become so critical that the only pleasure some get from Vapor Trails is by trashing it? At what point do we become so overly critical, that we can't enjoy art for the emotional or aesthetic response it was intended to give? Again, great stuff.

 

If you haven't read it the above will likely seem like gibberish, and if you haven't read Candide, what are you wating for! Get busy!

Edited September 5, 2013 by Running Rebel