Rush Clocky - mastering/mixing/production

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 03:02 PM)

QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. Yeah my complaints aren't large, it's more a nitpicking thing. It's not a bad sounding album in terms of production, it's just not as clean and organic as I'd like it to be. there's that word again, "organic".

[condemned2bfree]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 09:02 PM)

QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. Yeah my complaints aren't large, it's more a nitpicking thing. It's not a bad sounding album in terms of production, it's just not as clean and organic as I'd like it to be. yep i would of liked the guitars to be less dense, i mean i love heavy guitars...metal even;) but they seem hot like you describe, maybe due to mixing/production inclinations, as opposed to the original signal intent.

[DrKlahn]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 02:17 PM)

The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work?

The overall volume isn't really the issue here. Snakes and Arrows may have a higher peaks, but offer more range. What is the issue is that all of the individual instruments and vocals are being pushed to be as loud as possible within each performance. Even within individual tracks, the drums for instance, sound is manipulated to the point of distortion. So sounds that should be subtle are amplified to the point of stepping on other pieces of the performance. The other posters comment on the toms toms reflects this as well. They don't sound like they should because they are being boosted in favor of loudness over fidelity. This link is a good one to illustrate this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

 

The waveforms at the right show the loss of dynamics as the sound is crushed to make it as loud as possible.

[vespa2112]

QUOTE (canadianice @ Jul 13 2012, 01:35 PM)

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? Perhaps they will re-record it with you on drums---Give me a friggin break Huh?

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 04:16 PM)

QUOTE (canadianice @ Jul 13 2012, 01:35 PM) QUOTE (vespa2112 @ Jul 13 2012, 01:05 PM) QUOTE (Gompers @ Jul 13 2012, 10:53 AM) At about 2:26, Neil's fill is way too low in the mix. That fill should be in your face. Not to mention the high toms sound like he is hitting thick books. The low toms again suffer from lows that sound like they are coming from a car's subwoofer across the street...very muddy. Haha... EXACTLY!!! Although when I listen, I picture Neil hitting cardboard boxes for the toms. Seriously... you would think the GREATEST LIVING DRUMMER would like his drums to sound like drums on a major CD release - not wet paper bags, cardboard, or thick books. WTF ? Perhaps they will re-record it with you on drums---Give me a friggin break Huh? when you criticize the production/engineering, the fanboi's take it as a direct insult to the band members and in turn rub the fanboi's the wrong way.

[Rushman14]

QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 01:10 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 09:02 PM) QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. Yeah my complaints aren't large, it's more a nitpicking thing. It's not a bad sounding album in terms of production, it's just not as clean and organic as I'd like it to be. yep i would of liked the guitars to be less dense, i mean i love heavy guitars...metal even;) but they seem hot like you describe, maybe due to mixing/production inclinations, as opposed to the original signal intent. whatever the problem is, it makes me mental that this is an issue after what happened with VT.

[shail]

it will be nice to hear the new album live. no recording to worry about there. just as long as alex is not the loudest one on stage all should have a great time.

[launchpad67a]

A few of you saw my post, 4 pages back, and thanks.

The guitars are to f*cking loud, thick and effected on this record. They cover up everything, and this, and only this, is why the drums and vocals don't sound as up front as they should. Period.

Nothing can sound good with all that noise going on. Turning up the drum tracks only makes the drums sound worse. Trust me, those DW's sound great, but you can't hear them through all the guitar noise.

Alex likes 30 tracks of guitars, and most of them seem to make it onto the final mix. If Alex says, "I want all those tracks", they make it onto the mix. Alex mixed those live albums that sound like complete crap, remember. Granted, those were just single track guitars, but he can't mix and doesn't seem to understand, less is more.

 

This album isn't brick walled, mixed poorly, or anything like that. There's just too much going on, and it's mostly guitars. I love this album, love it! But you cannot turn it up without it sounding harsh. Can't blame that entirely on the engineer or producer. The band has the final say, and I guarantee it didn't get printed unless they ( Alex) was happy with it. f***ing guitar players...more me!

 

Just accept the record for what it is...a great record. Listen and enjoy the songs, just don't turn it up too loud. A great record could be recorded on a cell phone and still be great.

[Steely Caress]

Seems Alex has had his influence heard more on every album since TFE. I was hoping for more balance this time around. Still CA is a good album that I keep wanting to revisit, unlike the last 3.

[rushbabe]

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 12 2012, 01:12 PM)

Should Peter Collins return to the RUSH production fold next time? All the albums Peter produced with RUSH have great production quality. And he's still got it, the Flying Colors album sounds excellent! Come on now you RUSH fools, have at it!

I think whoever mixed Caravan and BU2B the first time around should mix for Rush from now on.

 

[R.G]

QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 14 2012, 04:34 AM)

A few of you saw my post, 4 pages back, and thanks. The guitars are to f*cking loud, thick and effected on this record. They cover up everything, and this, and only this, is why the drums and vocals don't sound as up front as they should. Period. Nothing can sound good with all that noise going on. Turning up the drum tracks only makes the drums sound worse. Trust me, those DW's sound great, but you can't hear them through all the guitar noise. Alex likes 30 tracks of guitars, and most of them seem to make it onto the final mix. If Alex says, "I want all those tracks", they make it onto the mix. Alex mixed those live albums that sound like complete crap, remember. Granted, those were just single track guitars, but he can't mix and doesn't seem to understand, less is more. This album isn't brick walled, mixed poorly, or anything like that. There's just too much going on, and it's mostly guitars. I love this album, love it! But you cannot turn it up without it sounding harsh. Can't blame that entirely on the engineer or producer. The band has the final say, and I guarantee it didn't get printed unless they ( Alex) was happy with it. f***ing guitar players...more me! Just accept the record for what it is...a great record. Listen and enjoy the songs, just don't turn it up too loud. A great record could be recorded on a cell phone and still be great.

How do you manage to listen and enjoy the songs once you've realised you can't hear what the hell is going on with an awesome drum part you're hearing 1/10th of? I just can't do it, once I've realised it inhibits my enjoyment to a great extent.

[Bangster of Goats]

Peter Collins? As long as it doesn't sound like Test For Echo... a wee bit sludgy for my taste... Edited July 14, 2012 by Bangster of Goats

[ZivotSon]

CA sounds way better than VT. There are some issues with it, but after listening to a lot of CA recently, I put in VT yesterday and it sounded like mud. I couldn't even make it through a couple of songs.

 

 

[av450]

I can't believe that CA would be this bad after what happened to vapor trails.

[Gedneil Alpeart]

QUOTE (rushbabe @ Jul 14 2012, 02:04 AM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 12 2012, 01:12 PM) Should Peter Collins return to the RUSH production fold next time? All the albums Peter produced with RUSH have great production quality. And he's still got it, the Flying Colors album sounds excellent! Come on now you RUSH fools, have at it! I think whoever mixed Caravan and BU2B the first time around should mix for Rush from now on. His name is Richard Chycki

[Gedneil Alpeart]

QUOTE (Steely Caress @ Jul 13 2012, 11:55 PM)

Seems Alex has had his influence heard more on every album since TFE. I was hoping for more balance this time around. Still CA is a good album that I keep wanting to revisit, unlike the last 3.

Revenge of Alex....."TAKE THAT SYNTH!"

 

Alex is mad at being bullied by Geddy and synth starting 20 years ago until 1989.

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (launchpad67a @ Jul 13 2012, 11:34 PM)

The guitars are to f*cking loud

so what's the problem?

[Rushman14]

Edited July 14, 2012 by Rushman14

[ReflectedLight]

Edited July 14, 2012 by ReflectedLight

[spock]

QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM)

QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. A Ha! That's it: "Lots of chords". That's been something that's been going on since VT. It's much more DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA than I've ever known before. Alex used to get a lot of love for his unique arpeggios and great riffs ('cause it was true), but I feel like VT+SA+CA is an onslaught/wall of guitars that sometimes works and sometimes just washes everything else away. Not much subtlety or finesse, just RAWWWWKKKK.   Is that bad? I won't say 'yes', I'll just say that sometimes it's messier than it needs to be. I can't point to specific parts off the top of my head, but I know there are parts of several CA songs where I just cannot tell what any particular bass or guitar is doing behind the vocals.   I don't know anything about producing or mixing, but since S&A and CA seem to have the same sorts of issues, well...wonder what Peter Collins or Terry Brown might be doing when the next album comes around

[patjnev]

Counterparts was RUSH last great work. And by that I mean Nick wasn't involved. And if it means anything if RUSH is looking for a producer I think I will be free that year .

[jnoble]

QUOTE (spock @ Jul 14 2012, 06:38 PM)

QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. A Ha! That's it: "Lots of chords". That's been something that's been going on since VT. It's much more DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA than I've ever known before. Alex used to get a lot of love for his unique arpeggios and great riffs ('cause it was true), but I feel like VT+SA+CA is an onslaught/wall of guitars that sometimes works and sometimes just washes everything else away. Not much subtlety or finesse, just RAWWWWKKKK.   Is that bad? I won't say 'yes', I'll just say that sometimes it's messier than it needs to be. I can't point to specific parts off the top of my head, but I know there are parts of several CA songs where I just cannot tell what any particular bass or guitar is doing behind the vocals.   I don't know anything about producing or mixing, but since S&A and CA seem to have the same sorts of issues, well...wonder what Peter Collins or Terry Brown might be doing when the next album comes around   That's a great point. A great example of this is Ceiling Unlimited, right from the get-go: DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA..   (insert picture of me holding hands over my ears in pain)

[spock]

QUOTE (jnoble @ Jul 14 2012, 06:45 PM)

QUOTE (spock @ Jul 14 2012, 06:38 PM) QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. A Ha! That's it: "Lots of chords". That's been something that's been going on since VT. It's much more DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA than I've ever known before. Alex used to get a lot of love for his unique arpeggios and great riffs ('cause it was true), but I feel like VT+SA+CA is an onslaught/wall of guitars that sometimes works and sometimes just washes everything else away. Not much subtlety or finesse, just RAWWWWKKKK.   Is that bad? I won't say 'yes', I'll just say that sometimes it's messier than it needs to be. I can't point to specific parts off the top of my head, but I know there are parts of several CA songs where I just cannot tell what any particular bass or guitar is doing behind the vocals.   I don't know anything about producing or mixing, but since S&A and CA seem to have the same sorts of issues, well...wonder what Peter Collins or Terry Brown might be doing when the next album comes around   That's a great point. A great example of this is Ceiling Unlimited, right from the get-go: DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA..   (insert picture of me holding hands over my ears in pain) Yes - that - exactly

[ReflectedLight]

QUOTE (jnoble @ Jul 14 2012, 06:45 PM)

QUOTE (spock @ Jul 14 2012, 06:38 PM) QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. A Ha! That's it: "Lots of chords". That's been something that's been going on since VT. It's much more DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA than I've ever known before. Alex used to get a lot of love for his unique arpeggios and great riffs ('cause it was true), but I feel like VT+SA+CA is an onslaught/wall of guitars that sometimes works and sometimes just washes everything else away. Not much subtlety or finesse, just RAWWWWKKKK.   Is that bad? I won't say 'yes', I'll just say that sometimes it's messier than it needs to be. I can't point to specific parts off the top of my head, but I know there are parts of several CA songs where I just cannot tell what any particular bass or guitar is doing behind the vocals.   I don't know anything about producing or mixing, but since S&A and CA seem to have the same sorts of issues, well...wonder what Peter Collins or Terry Brown might be doing when the next album comes around     Ceiling Unlimited good tune.

[Bangster of Goats]

QUOTE (jnoble @ Jul 14 2012, 06:45 PM)

QUOTE (spock @ Jul 14 2012, 06:38 PM) QUOTE (condemned2bfree @ Jul 13 2012, 02:59 PM) QUOTE (treeduck @ Jul 13 2012, 08:17 PM) The thing about the brick walling thing as regards Clockwork Angels, is that the album isn't that loud, I have to turn it up higher to get the same volume level as S&A but it's much "hotter" how's that work? from what you have described as opposed to my opinion of ca, its likely from the recording/mixing stage compression eq et cetra, of instruments at that stage. For me alex's style of playing contributes to the overall sound, i mean its not as linear as the 80's - lots of chords.   anyhoo im a bit of an audiophile, but not to the extent where my enjoyment is marred by slight issues here, ca remains fantastic ....... a really amazing record.   Im with lennon on this one; a great album remains so, even if its recorded on a tape recorder. A polarizing view, but a perception that rings true for me. A Ha! That's it: "Lots of chords". That's been something that's been going on since VT. It's much more DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA-DA than I've ever known before. Alex used to get a lot of love for his unique arpeggios and great riffs ('cause it was true), but I feel like VT+SA+CA is an onslaught/wall of guitars that sometimes works and sometimes just washes everything else away. Not much subtlety or finesse, just RAWWWWKKKK.   Is that bad? I won't say 'yes', I'll just say that sometimes it's messier than it needs to be. I can't point to specific parts off the top of my head, but I know there are parts of several CA songs where I just cannot tell what any particular bass or guitar is doing behind the vocals.   I don't know anything about producing or mixing, but since S&A and CA seem to have the same sorts of issues, well...wonder what Peter Collins or Terry Brown might be doing when the next album comes around   That's a great point. A great example of this is Ceiling Unlimited, right from the get-go: DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA..   (insert picture of me holding hands over my ears in pain) I imagined in my head Alex arpeggiating those chords in classic Alex fashion instead of going DA DA DA DA DA DA DA DA and... yes, it would work most nicely...   (I'm a huge fan of Arpeggiatin' Alex)