GeddyRulz Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jul 5 2012, 10:00 PM)I don't get it. Do you think every line of every song has to have a 1-for-1 syllable-to-note ratio? Have you ever heard of something called melismatic singing? I swear, that's what these armchair critics who complain about "shoehorned lyrics" expect: a syllable-to-note ratio of 1:1. That makes for a vocally boring song, something people wouldn't be too interested in singing along to. It also usually makes for a vocal melody which is indentical to the musical melody - something only an amateur (or bad) songwriter would ignorantly do. EDIT: For those who don't know, "melismatic singing," as opposed to syllabic singing, is when one syllable of lyric is sung across several successive musical notes. One exaggerated example: in the carol "Angels We Have Heard on High," the syllable "o" in the word "Gloria" is sung across 16 musical notes (by my estimation, hearing the song in my head) before finally getting to the "ri-a" part of the word. The melody was written in 1937; no word on whether the critics at the time accused the songwriter of "shoehorning." There's another hymn where one sung syllable stretches across a whopping thirty-seven notes! Still think the stretch across just seven notes in "The Larger Bowl" is ridiculous? Edited July 6, 2012 by GeddyRulz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddyLeeFender Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 5 2012, 10:13 PM) QUOTE (NYM86 @ Jul 5 2012, 10:00 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 5 2012, 09:58 PM) Ive been hearing this term for various bands over the last 10 years or so. It's brought up a LOT on songwriter boards. Most fans of bands would never recognize it. It's mostly just writers that notice if something sounds odd, if a word is strung out over too many syllables, or a word with too many syllables squeezed into not enough space. It happens a lot with Rush since the vocalist isnt writing the lyrics. An example is Larger Bowl, "While others see only the wooorrrrhhhohhhurhurhurst". If he had 3 or 4 more words there it wouldn sound better to me. Right now it just sounds weird. Usually it's not that bad because he works with Neil to try and make it all fit but sometimes it's very glaring. Many writers do it to extent and its not a problem unless it's something that really sticks out. I don't get it. Do you think every line of every song has to have a 1-for-1 syllable-to-note ratio? Have you ever heard of something called melismatic singing? Who said every syllable has to be perfect? Im pretty sure I didnt say that. Every band stretches words out, but a 1 syllable work stretched to 7 like 'worst' in Larger Bowl sounds ridiculous. If you think that sounds good... I dont even know what to say to that. You dont usually hear singers pushing it that far, and its because they're writing their own lyrics. I remember an SNL skit making fun of Rihanna's song Umbrella when she stretches that out to sound like Umberella. Yeah, they made fun of a singer adding 1 syllable. Could you imagine if Larger Bowl became popular what people would do to that? I love this part of The Larger Bowl and think it fits in perfectly...to each his own I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
They Bow Defeated Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Edited July 6, 2012 by They Bow Defeated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddyRulz Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (They Bow Defeated @ Jul 6 2012, 12:24 PM) I thought the shoehorning complaint usually referred to cramming in too many syllables or words into a vocal line. You're right; I think that's usually the nature of their complaint. Too many syllables/words, too few notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchemingDemon Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (GeddyRulz @ Jul 6 2012, 12:48 PM) QUOTE (They Bow Defeated @ Jul 6 2012, 12:24 PM) I thought the shoehorning complaint usually referred to cramming in too many syllables or words into a vocal line. You're right; I think that's usually the nature of their complaint. Too many syllables/words, too few notes. If this is the case, then shit, it's been going on since FBN. BB&B, By-Tor, Bastille Day, etc. But of course CA has to be criticized Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddyRulz Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (nappy2112 @ Jul 5 2012, 07:53 PM) They were invented on the Hemispheres album. Or maybe Cygnus, Book I. We know that Geddy and Alex work on musical ideas, and that Neil is working, apart from them, on ideas for lyrics. Sometimes you really can't tell that this is how it's done, but sometimes it's pretty obvious. The words on these songs can feel like they've been shoved into a melody, rather than written around one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeddyRulz Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (goose @ Jul 6 2012, 02:09 PM) We know that Geddy and Alex work on musical ideas, and that Neil is working, apart from them, on ideas for lyrics. Sometimes you really can't tell that this is how it's done, but sometimes it's pretty obvious. The words on these songs can feel like they've been shoved into a melody, rather than written around one. I still think it's an ideal way for a band to write. Everyone does something in the writing process, and each does what they're good at - Ged and Al with the music, and Neil - because he doesn't play a melodic instrument - takes the lyrics. In other bands, you often see members who don't do ANY of the writing, lyrics or music. Rush's situation is much more democratic, and having a drummer that can write good lyrics is the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenJennings Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 The only shoehorned lyrics on CA were in Headlong Flight IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t2s Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (Tommy Sawyer @ Jul 6 2012, 06:21 AM) You have never heard shoehorned lyrics until you have heard Van der Graaf Generator. Joni Mitchell. Early Genesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slack jaw gaze Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 5 2012, 10:13 PM)but a 1 syllable work stretched to 7 like 'worst' in Larger Bowl sounds ridiculous. If you think that sounds good... I dont even know what to say to that. Good thing you didn't write for Whitney Houston. I can see it now: "And I [will probably but I'm not quite sure] always love you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (goose @ Jul 6 2012, 02:09 PM) QUOTE (nappy2112 @ Jul 5 2012, 07:53 PM) They were invented on the Hemispheres album. Or maybe Cygnus, Book I. We know that Geddy and Alex work on musical ideas, and that Neil is working, apart from them, on ideas for lyrics. Sometimes you really can't tell that this is how it's done, but sometimes it's pretty obvious. The words on these songs can feel like they've been shoved into a melody, rather than written around one. This guy obviously knows what he's talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughedatbytime Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (nappy2112 @ Jul 5 2012, 06:53 PM) They were invented on the Hemispheres album. Or Bastille Day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (Slack jaw gaze @ Jul 6 2012, 03:35 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 5 2012, 10:13 PM)but a 1 syllable work stretched to 7 like 'worst' in Larger Bowl sounds ridiculous. If you think that sounds good... I dont even know what to say to that. Good thing you didn't write for Whitney Houston. I can see it now: "And I [will probably but I'm not quite sure] always love you." She stretches that word to 3 syllables. Not quite the same as Larger Bowl sorry. There's a difference between doing it well and having it work and having it sound really awkward. In that song it works. Im Larger Bowl it sounds ridiculous. He could have used a few more words and it would have sounded better. Simple as that. Rush fans will defend anything but even the band themselves admits when they make mistakes. Even the band thinks they got way off track in the 80s, Geddy said that himself, and youll still find Rush fans defending all of that to the death. If someone actually notices mistakes or things that could have been better, there's nothing at all wrong with talking about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rummut71 Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE Rush and the shoehorned lyrics -Rush +Harry Potter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slack jaw gaze Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 6 2012, 08:30 PM) Im Larger Bowl it sounds ridiculous. He could have used a few more words and it would have sounded better. Simple as that. And yet Mr. Songwriter will not grace us with the magic lyric that would make it perfect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (Slack jaw gaze @ Jul 6 2012, 09:29 PM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 6 2012, 08:30 PM) Im Larger Bowl it sounds ridiculous. He could have used a few more words and it would have sounded better. Simple as that. And yet Mr. Songwriter will not grace us with the magic lyric that would make it perfect? This guy is just a GOOF,Bottom line is just let him believe how cool he is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3strukt Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 trenken has raised himself in my eyes. The guy's got a decent voice. He can nail Hemispheres pretty easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jul 6 2012, 09:41 PM) trenken has raised himself in my eyes. The guy's got a decent voice. He can nail Hemispheres pretty easily. BULLSHIT DUDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThinkingBig Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I prefer car horn lyrics. And shoe shine music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (ThinkingBig @ Jul 6 2012, 10:11 PM) I prefer car horn lyrics. And shoe shine music. Yup, goofball city Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3strukt Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 QUOTE (canadianice @ Jul 6 2012, 09:44 PM) QUOTE (D3strukt @ Jul 6 2012, 09:41 PM) trenken has raised himself in my eyes. The guy's got a decent voice. He can nail Hemispheres pretty easily. BULLSHIT DUDE Not bullshitting you. In fact other members have complimented him as well. He's got a decent voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now