The Owl Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I have been thinking about this for a while now..we know Clockwork Angels is gonna be a concept album that follows a centrailze story or narrative, my question is does that make it a "rock opera"? There are two types of concept albums, one type that tells a narrative story, and the other type that more or less focuses on a centralized theme(s) (Dark Side of the Moon/Animals/Tales from Topagraphic Oceans/ Days of future passed are good examples) . Are all concept albums that tell an actual story "rock operas" or is there some additional to "rock operas"? I've seen the label "rock opera" attached to albums like "Quadrophenia", "The Wall", "Thick as a Brick","The Lamb lies down on broadway"...etc but not to albums "Still Life"/"Scenes from a Memory"/The coheed and Cambia albums/Operation Mindcrime..etc all "story based" concept albums but not "rock operas". So, whats the difference between a "story/narrative based concept album" and a "rock opera", and where would Clockwork Angels fall in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexmai Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_opera Seems to be about different characters singing different parts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GangsterOnBoats Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 If I'm not mistaken, I think a rock opera is supposed to be one long, supposedly continuous piece, like the Who's work where they made transitions between the songs on Tommy even if they shouldn't have worked and the structure is spoken from one or more different points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I dont think it has to be a continuous piece. American Idiot from Green Day is often referred to as a rock opera because the entire thing is one long continuous story about 2 people, but they're all separate songs. Although 2 of them are in the 10-12 minute range. It was even turned into a broadway play. So I dont think it just has to be 1 long song. As far as CA, who knows. Right now Ill say no because listening to the 1st 2 songs on the album, it does not come across as really a story to me at all. Im sure the lyrics are related to a single concept, but not written in a story manner it doesnt sound like, so I doubt too many people would refer to it as a rock opera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Owl Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 I Was orginally gonna post this thread in "muic of the spheres" asking the difference between "narrative concept albums" and "rock operas" or even if there is one. But I thought it would be fun to add the Clockwork Angels question into the mix as well, plus I think I would see more responces in here than in MOTS. And I dont think the difference is having different characters vocalized is it either. as I noted Ive heard albums that do that but not catagorized as "rock operas". I personally thing the difference is more or less arbutrary and so is the application of the term, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielmclark Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merely Space Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Perhaps snobby rock critics have to deem a piece worthy of the title "rock opera." Seriously, I can't see any reason why 2112 wouldn't be considered one. But I don't think I've ever heard it referred to that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Owl Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 As far as Clockwork Angels goes, I think it's been established that it will be a narrative based concept album that will follow a story and feature defined characters..etc (or at least my assumption as theres gonna be a friggin novelization of the record) but does that make it a "rock opera" or is there some additional criteria to be met to use that label that is not arbituary and ill-defined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merely Space Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (The Owl @ May 10 2012, 08:59 AM) As far as Clockwork Angels goes, I think it's been established that it will be a narrative based concept album that will follow a story and feature defined characters..etc (or at least my assumption as theres gonna be a friggin novelization of the record) but does that make it a "rock opera" or is there some additional criteria to be met to use that label that is not arbituary and ill-defined? Perhaps repeated musical themes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenken Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) QUOTE (Merely Space @ May 10 2012, 08:46 AM) Perhaps snobby rock critics have to deem a piece worthy of the title "rock opera." Seriously, I can't see any reason why 2112 wouldn't be considered one. But I don't think I've ever heard it referred to that way. I always felt 2112 isnt referred to that because its really just 1 song and only a part of an album that doesnt have a central theme or story. I just always felt it had to be a coherent story written in a story styled manner about a person or multiple people that spans an entire album. Thats why I brought up Green Day's album just as a modern example of something ive seen referred to as a rock opera many times and I would definitely agree with that. Rush doesnt really have any albums like that, and theres know way to no with CA right now, although my initial guess is that its not since the first 2 songs dont seem very clearly related like they are 2 sequential parts of a story. Their lyrics relate to a central theme, but dont come across as a story at all to me, but maybe the others do. Dont know yet. Edited May 10, 2012 by trenken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmotionDetector Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merely Space Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Edited May 10, 2012 by Merely Space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Presto-digitation Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Concept album works for me just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertjames1971 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 A rock opera is called a rock opera when the artist calls it a rock opera. A concept album is called a concept album when the artist feels that the term "rock opera" is not pretentious enough. Seriously though, I think they are the same thing. If there's a story that carries through the whole piece then go ahead and call it whichever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielmclark Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 You think 'rock opera' is less pretentious than 'concept album'? I kinda figure it's the opposite. I hear 'concept album' and I think, "here's an album of music that tells a complete story". I hear 'rock opera' and I think, "here's an album of music that takes itself way too seriously because it's trying to glom onto the more highbrow 'opera' label - as if old people in formal attire are sitting on balconies with tiny binoculars watching fat women with pointy helmets perform a rock song". Or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 04:32 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. wakey wakey... I bought a new album for you: it's by The Pretty Things and it's called S.F.Sorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:22 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 04:32 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. wakey wakey... I bought a new album for you: it's by The Pretty Things and it's called S.F.Sorrow still Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 11:23 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:22 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 04:32 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. wakey wakey... I bought a new album for you: it's by The Pretty Things and it's called S.F.Sorrow still How about Biglietto per l'Inferno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:25 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 11:23 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:22 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 04:32 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. wakey wakey... I bought a new album for you: it's by The Pretty Things and it's called S.F.Sorrow still How about Biglietto per l'Inferno? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. P. L. Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 11:26 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:25 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 11:23 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:22 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 04:32 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. wakey wakey... I bought a new album for you: it's by The Pretty Things and it's called S.F.Sorrow still How about Biglietto per l'Inferno? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RwooCpYJAMo/TJJILje90UI/AAAAAAAAACY/fl8XAxaQPMY/s1600/rip-van-winkle-3.jpg Ok Rip, see ya for R50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianice Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:29 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 11:26 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:25 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 11:23 PM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 04:22 PM) QUOTE (canadianice @ May 10 2012, 04:32 PM) QUOTE (danielmclark @ May 10 2012, 08:37 AM) QUOTE (H. P. L. @ May 10 2012, 07:17 AM) Marketing. That good fella Kit Lambert, imbueded with classical music, came up with the "rock opera" monicker for Tommy, and it stuck. I have trouble myself seeing the difference between concept album and rock opera, if not for the fact that the latter seems to imply a more "theatrical" approach, but even that is so vague. Operation Mindcrime, having been played in its entirety and with costumes and coreography, should fit in the rock opera field, but you won't hear anyone call it that. This. "Rock opera" is a cheesy marketing term. Nothing more. wakey wakey... I bought a new album for you: it's by The Pretty Things and it's called S.F.Sorrow still How about Biglietto per l'Inferno? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RwooCpYJAMo/TJJILje90UI/AAAAAAAAACY/fl8XAxaQPMY/s1600/rip-van-winkle-3.jpg Ok Rip, see ya for R50 is that a Rock Opera Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeson90 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) part of me wishes rush hadnt gone back to that concept prog stuff but heck i'll take what i'm given just that for so long the band has done just fine on 4-6min tunes and i hate to think they consciously or even sub-consciously relented to old school fan demand like i said though, doesnt matter..... new rush enough for me and i cant wait Edited May 10, 2012 by lifeson90 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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