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Roadrunner's expectations.


snowdog2112
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QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 04:11 PM)
We may as well be listening to 1930s big band music in the 1980s. In fact, that's a great parallel. Saying a great rock album released today would sell big would be like saying in 1985 "If Glenn Miller came back to life and released a record like he did in 1939 it would be huge!" I don't care how good a swing record put out in 1985 would be nobody would care, regardless of the fact that it used to be the most popular kind of music.

I can't think of a better way to put it. You pretty much summed up the death of rock in a paragraph.

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QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 05:11 PM)
QUOTE (rushgoober @ Apr 25 2012, 03:39 PM)
QUOTE (LeaveMyThingAlone @ Apr 25 2012, 02:33 PM)
And RushGoober, I would definitely say you're the exception, considering Headlong Flight is currently the #3 Rock Single on iTunes.

No offense, but what does that even mean? The song came out yesterday. It's not like that will translate into a Billboard top ten hit or anything - I'd be shocked if they ever got another song that went about #75 on the main Hot 100 chart. Sure, they make a dent when they release a new song and album. Hell, the album might even debut at #2, then sink to #15, then to #83 and after 5 or 6 weeks be off the chart forever.

Agreed, but again that just confirms my point about where rock is in general. HF was at #3 on the rock chart and #98 overall. That's fricking crazy. Even the most popular rock songs are completely obscure in the larger sense these days. Someone on the VH forum I go to looked up (going from memory) the top 100 songs for that particular week a while back and all of 2 were even remotely rock. This just proves that was no fluke. So the only people that even follow rock or are even aware of these older bands putting out songs and albums are the few hardcores and their kids laugh.gif . We may as well be listening to 1930s big band music in the 1980s. In fact, that's a great parallel. Saying a great rock album released today would sell big would be like saying in 1985 "If Glenn Miller came back to life and released a record like he did in 1939 it would be huge!" I don't care how good a swing record put out in 1985 would be nobody would care, regardless of the fact that it used to be the most popular kind of music. It's that far out of whack these days with traditional rock. The whole idea that Rush isn't multiplatinum these days because the records aren't as good is just fantasy. That just doesn't matter.

HF is currently #1 for Amazon MP3 Rock downloads and are #44 in overall downloads:

 

Amazon

 

Highest I've seen it was #43 and it's already starting to drop...

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QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 05:53 PM)
Quality is irrelevant. Sales has nothing to do with quality, it has everything to do with popularity.

Bingo.

 

This is the sad, but clear as day obvious truth.

 

Rush could release the best album ever, seriously...better than MP, PeW, Hemispheres, etc., and it wouldn't sell anything outside of the same numbers S&A did. Sad, but true.

 

The bulk of Rush's album sales these days are based on devotion. OUR devotion as Rush fans. For the most part, we will buy what they release.

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QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 25 2012, 03:49 PM)
QUOTE (EmotionDetector @ Apr 25 2012, 03:42 PM)
QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 25 2012, 04:27 PM)
QUOTE (grand phil-nale @ Apr 25 2012, 03:25 PM)
Rush is by far their biggest investment minus Nickelback. So it makes sense for them to heavily promote CA.

Nickleback and Slipknot are much bigger investments than Rush

Is Slipknot really THAT big?

 

I'm being serious...I'm not all that familiar with their music or sales.

Their last 3 albums went to Number 1 on billboard and they have sold Millions. I am not really a fan myself

Here's Slipknot's US album sales after a quick check on the RIAA page:

 

Slipknot (1999) - Double Platinum

Iowa (2001) - Platinum

Vol. 3 (2004) - Platinum

9.0 Live (2005) - Gold

All Hope Is Gone (2008) - Platinum

 

Yes, they are that big. What's interesting about this is that in the age of downloading Slipknot's last album still sold a million copies. Slipknot and Nickelback are certainly Roadrunner's priority bands because the label is making money off them when it comes to album sales.

 

Rush is probably number three on RR's band pecking order. It gives them a well known band with a lot of musical credibility but they aren't gonna set the charts on fire with sales. I think RR singed them because they thought it would be cool to have Rush. They'll still bring in respectable album sales probably in the 200,000 - 300,000 range and that's it. By today's album sale standards that's actually very successful. But the days of Rush getting a new studio album to be certified ligitimately gold or platinum are long gone now.

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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Apr 25 2012, 05:10 PM)
Well quality might mean nothing in terms of album sales, or even in terms of popularity, but it means everything to me.

Oh, of course. It'll still matter to individuals here and there but that's why I was talking about sales on a large scale. I'm sure some people, probably including you, will decide whether to buy the new album only after you've heard the whole thing and made an informed choice. Nothing wrong with that. But that's just not the way most people do it. People simply get "what everybody else is getting", especially when they're young. People may choose not to listen to it as much afterwards if they don't like it but at this point buying a Rush product is basically a brand loyalty thing first, even if it turns out that the album is brilliant. But the reverse is not true. Almost nobody will buy it even if it's brilliant unless they already have an attachment to the band. The days of casual buyers for classic rock are over and no great album will bring them back.

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QUOTE (rushgoober @ Apr 25 2012, 07:10 PM)
Well quality might mean nothing in terms of album sales, or even in terms of popularity, but it means everything to me.

Absolutely, and it should. Me too.

 

It's the most important thing. We're just talking in terms of sales, which means everything to the record label, but nothing to me.

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While I'm sure Roadrunner records are thrilled to have living legends on their label, I doubt they are banking on Rush to set the charts on fire.

 

They are doing a good job promoting the new album because that's what a good label is supposed to do.

 

Bout time, I say.

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QUOTE (ReflectedLight @ Apr 25 2012, 03:17 PM)
the fact that it was s & a didn't exactly help the situation.

Snakes and Arrows, despite the strange derision it recieves around here for being too "folksy" lol, was easily the most critically acclaimed Rush album in recent memory - so the notion that stronger material is needed to generate mass sales is a bit misguided.

 

Hardcore fans will buy it no matter what. Casual fans will either steal it or not even bother because they haven't bought a new Rush album since that one with the rapping skeleton wink.gif

Edited by eshine
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QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 25 2012, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)
#3 - Florence & The Machine- Ceremonials (384,000 copies)
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)
#6 - Elbow- Build A Rocket Boys (327,000 copies)
#7 - Kasabian- Velociraptor (279,000 copies)
#9 - Noah & The Whale- Last Night On Earth (261,000 copies)

Btw, who the Fu*k are these people ?

Noah and the Whale make Maiden look like Air Supply.. Yup.. It's true

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QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)
I'm really curious what Roadrunner expects CA to sell considering we've heard about a "massive" promotion campaign getting underway as the album gets closer. I just don't think a lot of people realize how dismal album sales are overall and especially for rock. I remember Neil commenting a couple years ago that S&A basically just broke even and record sales have dropped considerably just since then. If S&A sold maybe 400,000 or so and didn't make any money why the hell spend any money promoting anything anymore?

As of a few weeks ago the new Van Halen album was the second best selling new album of the year behind only a compilation and it's still sitting at only around 330,000 sold. More people will actually get the albums but they all just either torrent them or get copies from friends. At this point it seems like if CA even hits 200,000 within the first year it'll be a huge success relatively speaking. But all the sales will come from hardcore Rush fans who will decide to buy it or not regardless of any record company promotion so I'm not sure what the point is. There simply is no casual rock market anymore, especially for older bands.

I was just thinking about all this because of a thread on a VH forum where they were talking about the same thing.

Look at this list, it's the top selling rock albums for all of 2011. For those that don't want to go page by page through it I'll summarize it below:

#1 - Coldplay- Mylo Xyloto (908,000 copies)
#2 - Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds (492,000 copies)
#3 - Florence & The Machine- Ceremonials (384,000 copies)
#4 - Foo Fighters- Wasting Light (380,000 copies)
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)
#6 - Elbow- Build A Rocket Boys (327,000 copies)
#7 - Kasabian- Velociraptor (279,000 copies)
#8 - Snow Patrol- Fallen Empires (269,000 copies)
#9 - Noah & The Whale- Last Night On Earth (261,000 copies)
#10 - Arctic Monkeys- Suck It and See (223,000 copies)

http://www.gigwise.com/photos/70084/1/The-...-Albums-Of-2011


Ok, I'm old, but I swear to you I've only heard of three of those. When I grew up rock music was bands like Van Halen and Def Leppard that were selling 10 million-plus. Now we've got Elbow and Mumford and Sons and 4 of the top 10 sellers are in the freaking 200,000s. Not a single platinum rock album and only 1 that sold over half a million.

Rock is truly dead. sad.gif

QUOTE
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)

 

that came out in 2009

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QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 25 2012, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)
#3 - Florence & The Machine- Ceremonials (384,000 copies)
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)
#6 - Elbow- Build A Rocket Boys (327,000 copies)
#7 - Kasabian- Velociraptor (279,000 copies)
#9 - Noah & The Whale- Last Night On Earth (261,000 copies)

Btw, who the Fu*k are these people ?

FWIW, Mumford & Soms has been recommended to me several times over from different sources, but as I understand it they are a bluegrass band (or newgrass?) so it's reasonable that your average Rush fan wouldn't know them. I'm a big fan of Alison Krause and Union Station, so that's why people think I'd like them (I haven't gotten around to them yet).

 

I can't say from personal experience, but based on the people who recommended them to me they are very skilled musicians.

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QUOTE (furie @ Apr 25 2012, 06:35 PM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)
I'm really curious what Roadrunner expects CA to sell considering we've heard about a "massive" promotion campaign getting underway as the album gets closer. I just don't think a lot of people realize how dismal album sales are overall and especially for rock. I remember Neil commenting a couple years ago that S&A basically just broke even and record sales have dropped considerably just since then. If S&A sold maybe 400,000 or so and didn't make any money why the hell spend any money promoting anything anymore?

As of a few weeks ago the new Van Halen album was the second best selling new album of the year behind only a compilation and it's still sitting at only around 330,000 sold. More people will actually get the albums but they all just either torrent them or get copies from friends. At this point it seems like if CA even hits 200,000 within the first year it'll be a huge success relatively speaking. But all the sales will come from hardcore Rush fans who will decide to buy it or not regardless of any record company promotion so I'm not sure what the point is. There simply is no casual rock market anymore, especially for older bands.

I was just thinking about all this because of a thread on a VH forum where they were talking about the same thing.

Look at this list, it's the top selling rock albums for all of 2011. For those that don't want to go page by page through it I'll summarize it below:

#1 - Coldplay- Mylo Xyloto (908,000 copies)
#2 - Noel Gallagher's High Flying Birds (492,000 copies)
#3 - Florence & The Machine- Ceremonials (384,000 copies)
#4 - Foo Fighters- Wasting Light (380,000 copies)
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)
#6 - Elbow- Build A Rocket Boys (327,000 copies)
#7 - Kasabian- Velociraptor (279,000 copies)
#8 - Snow Patrol- Fallen Empires (269,000 copies)
#9 - Noah & The Whale- Last Night On Earth (261,000 copies)
#10 - Arctic Monkeys- Suck It and See (223,000 copies)

http://www.gigwise.com/photos/70084/1/The-...-Albums-Of-2011


Ok, I'm old, but I swear to you I've only heard of three of those. When I grew up rock music was bands like Van Halen and Def Leppard that were selling 10 million-plus. Now we've got Elbow and Mumford and Sons and 4 of the top 10 sellers are in the freaking 200,000s. Not a single platinum rock album and only 1 that sold over half a million.

Rock is truly dead.  sad.gif

QUOTE
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)

 

that came out in 2009

This is simply a list of the rock albums that sold the most last year, it doesn't necessarily mean they are all 2011 albums.

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QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Apr 25 2012, 06:41 PM)
QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 25 2012, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)
#3 - Florence & The Machine- Ceremonials (384,000 copies)
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)
#6 - Elbow- Build A Rocket Boys (327,000 copies)
#7 - Kasabian- Velociraptor (279,000 copies)
#9 - Noah & The Whale- Last Night On Earth (261,000 copies)

Btw, who the Fu*k are these people ?

FWIW, Mumford & Soms has been recommended to me several times over from different sources, but as I understand it they are a bluegrass band (or newgrass?) so it's reasonable that your average Rush fan wouldn't know them. I'm a big fan of Alison Krause and Union Station, so that's why people think I'd like them (I haven't gotten around to them yet).

 

I can't say from personal experience, but based on the people who recommended them to me they are very skilled musicians.

I like Alison Krauss too and after randomly clicking on one of Mumford and Sons songs on youtube you're right, it sounds nothing like rock. I have no idea what's going on. Maybe no one even knows what rock sounds like any more. laugh.gif

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QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Apr 25 2012, 07:41 PM)
QUOTE (metaldad @ Apr 25 2012, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 03:00 PM)
#3 - Florence & The Machine- Ceremonials (384,000 copies)
#5 - Mumford & Sons- Sigh No More (373,000 copies)
#6 - Elbow- Build A Rocket Boys (327,000 copies)
#7 - Kasabian- Velociraptor (279,000 copies)
#9 - Noah & The Whale- Last Night On Earth (261,000 copies)

Btw, who the Fu*k are these people ?

FWIW, Mumford & Soms has been recommended to me several times over from different sources, but as I understand it they are a bluegrass band (or newgrass?) so it's reasonable that your average Rush fan wouldn't know them. I'm a big fan of Alison Krause and Union Station, so that's why people think I'd like them (I haven't gotten around to them yet).

 

I can't say from personal experience, but based on the people who recommended them to me they are very skilled musicians.

Cool, thanx. I will check it out 1022.gif

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QUOTE (snowdog2112 @ Apr 25 2012, 04:19 PM)
QUOTE (rushgoober @ Apr 25 2012, 05:10 PM)
Well quality might mean nothing in terms of album sales, or even in terms of popularity, but it means everything to me.

Oh, of course. It'll still matter to individuals here and there but that's why I was talking about sales on a large scale. I'm sure some people, probably including you, will decide whether to buy the new album only after you've heard the whole thing and made an informed choice.

I'll be buying it regardless.

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It doesn't matter how much the promote it, Rush isn't selling a lot of albums. It's been decades since one of their albums sold a million copies.

 

What does this tell you? They have crap load of fans that will go see them live that love their old stuff, and then their super hardcore fans that still buy there albums, and there's far less of us than there is casual Rush fans that will go see them live just to see old favorites.

 

Thats just a fact. The numbers dont like. Msot of their albums in the last 20 years hover around 500k sales which is relatively low. They just dont have that many fans left that care about their new music. How else can you explain how so many more total people than their total album sales show up at all these shows?

 

I saw this myself at PNC for the S&A tour. The entire place was absolutely dead for all those S&A songs in a row in the 2nd set, then blew up as soon as Subdivisions started. Ive said before we would see the same attendance at these shows if they never even put out VT, S&A or CA. It doesnt even matter if they make new music, there are so many more Rush fans out there that dont even care.

Edited by trenken
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I always get the sense here that people are living in some sort of dream world where Rush is still relevant, all their fans buy their albums (which if they did each new album would sell like 7 million copies), and that Rush actually has a need to put out albums to justify touring. None of those things are reality.

 

They can fill arenas til they are 80 without putting out any new music and not many of them would ever care. And to be honest noone outside of older people and Rush fans even knows they put an album out after Moving Pictures. In the grand scheme they are completely irrelevant, so they just are not selling a million copies of CA. Not nearly that many Rush fans out there that care enough. I would be willing to put money on that one because in 20 years they havent been able to do much better than 500k. A few of them sold less than that.

Edited by trenken
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QUOTE
I always get the sense here that people are living in some sort of dream world where Rush is still relevant

 

Were they ever, really? I mean, to all of us, yea! But this is a band that at their peak barely have been able to crack the Top 30 singles charts. And while I am an album guy myself, there was a time when singles were the thing, much like downloads are now. Singles equate to more radio airplay, which equates to more record sales.

 

I've never pretended that Rush was on the same level (popularity wise) as bands like The Rolling Stones or Fleetwood Mac or whomever -- I fell in love with Rush for reasons of my own, and I didn't need an A/R man or a hit single to prove to me that their music was viable. And as long as they keep putting out music that is interesting, I will keep buying it. I won't stop just because rock is "dying".

 

QUOTE
and that Rush actually has a need to put out albums to justify touring.

 

In their minds they do -- its more honest and justifies what they do. They don't want to feel like an "oldies" act living off of past glories. In their minds they are still artists on a journey, and I am glad I am along for the ride.

 

But like I said, I've never thought of Rush as "mainstream" or "relevant" beyond my CD player or turntable or iPod. And I don't care really. It's nice to see other people, particularly young people, discover them and fall in love with them. But at the end of the day, if the music is good, that's all I care about.

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QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 26 2012, 06:54 AM)
I always get the sense here that people are living in some sort of dream world where Rush is still relevant, all their fans buy their albums (which if they did each new album would sell like 7 million copies), and that Rush actually has a need to put out albums to justify touring. None of those things are reality.

They can fill arenas til they are 80 without putting out any new music and not many of them would ever care. And to be honest noone outside of older people and Rush fans even knows they put an album out after Moving Pictures. In the grand scheme they are completely irrelevant, so they just are not selling a million copies of CA. Not nearly that many Rush fans out there that care enough. I would be willing to put money on that one because in 20 years they havent been able to do much better than 500k. A few of them sold less than that.

You're irrelevant. :snap:

 

joker.gif

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I think its been shown quite well no one sells 7 million albums anymore....

 

Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston could rise from the dead and record a duet and it would not sell 7 million copies becuase too many would be downloading it illegally.

 

So you can't expect Rush to sell those types of numbers.

 

it won't stop me from buying Clockwork Angels.

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QUOTE (trenken @ Apr 26 2012, 06:49 AM)
Thats just a fact. The numbers dont like. Msot of their albums in the last 20 years hover around 500k sales which is relatively low. They just dont have that many fans left that care about their new music. How else can you explain how so many more total people than their total album sales show up at all these shows?

A lot of people download the albums and burn copies for others. That's one reason to explain why there seems to be more people at the shows than their total album sales. It's just so easy for someone to save a few bucks and download it from somewhere. Now more than ever it's hard to tell how many people really "have" the album because of downloading and CD burning.

 

But in general I agree with your point that most people don't care to hear many new songs and deep cuts when they go to see Rush live. That's not just for Rush but for any band that has had big hits and huge albums in the past. I'm sure there are a lot more people than we think who probably listen to the new albums and like them but don't actually have much time to sit down and get to know them like the classic stuff that's so embeded in their brains. I still will never understand why people will spend the money on concert tickets, especially with how much they are today, just to see a band that they're only casually interrested in. I get if someone drags you along to the show or something but to spend that kind of money to see a band play a 25 song set when they probably only know about 10 of them makes no sense to me.

Edited by J2112YYZ
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