Jumping The Shark, did Rush ever take the leap?

[The_Enemy_Within]

I'm on mobile so I don't have time to look through some of these posts, but I just wanna say that I don't think RUSH has ever "jumped the shark" ... RUSH has always done what they wanted to do... and they've been passionate it. They never do something if they don't feel it... necver done anything to please the "mainstream"... never been desperate for that.

[PariahDog]

QUOTE (The_Enemy_Within @ Sep 3 2010, 06:19 PM)

I'm on mobile so I don't have time to look through some of these posts, but I just wanna say that I don't think RUSH has ever "jumped the shark" ... RUSH has always done what they wanted to do... and they've been passionate it. They never do something if they don't feel it... necver done anything to please the "mainstream"... never been desperate for that.

 

thelocator is trying WAY too hard to "prove" his point, so I finally went in and voted "Never" (which I truly believe).

 

not= Sellouts

Edited September 4, 2010 by PariahDog

[SlyJeff]

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

I wasn't going to add anything further on the subject because I know when I've gotten my point across, providing now FIVE very distinct and seperate examples of where this band has clung to popular trends in order to further their career interests...FIVE!

You haven't gotten your point across because many of us think you are confusing "inspiration" with "selling out". You have provided 0 evidence the band has ever written or performed a song differently so that they could make more money or become more popular. All you have done is noted some trends in their music that align with popular trends, but that effect does not necessitate the cause you are ascribing.

 

[jdouglas]

Even though they kinda sold out in those pretty production 90s MTV videos, and those songs are not my favorite....I still like "parts" of those songs.

 

I'm glad they played the track off PW windows this tour, that break/solo is one of my favorites. But yeah, The Big Money video or TSS video...not so great.

 

They may not have jumped the shark, but they were lacing up the waterskis.

 

[SlyJeff]

Their videos petty much suck across the board. I don't think the band much cared about them, tbh. If they did, well that just proves being awesome at one thing doesn't make you awesome at everything.

[ghostworks]

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

...I don't think any reasonable man or woman would dispute the fact that RUSH have jumped on a few bandwagons when those stagecoaches came rambling by...

I'm (fairly) reasonable.

 

And I'll gladly dispute it.

 

Give me just one bandwagon Rush ever even... I don't know, loosely followed... like, even from a considerable distance, Clint Eastwood-style...!

 

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

...what 'ghostworks' said above about the 'Signals' material can't be ignored..It has to be the most patently false thing I've ever read about the band, ever...

Come now.

 

What about the 'everything that Rush does is awesome!' posts?

 

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

That is IF he's actually serious...Which I seriously doubt in this case..."

Definitely serious.

 

I've a wicked sarcastic side but I'd fully admit if I was taking the piss here.

 

I'm not at all.

 

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

There isn't a single 'Best Of 80's' CD that contains 'Subdivisons' or 'New World Man' (or anything else from 'Signals') on it?"...That did make me laugh...But, I don't understand the need for a joke though...

Feel free to post one for me - I'll offer the appropriate retraction.

 

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

...the songs from SIGNALS were SO POPULAR and ALL OVER THE RADIO when that album was released (based on the prior success of the Moving Pictures material, just like Metallica's surge in popularity was based on the success of  'Black') and these 'Signals' songs show up on EVERY SINGLE Greatest Hits package that the band has ever put together...

^ oh please - come on, pal!

 

You know I'm not talking about Rush comps (silly! ) - I'm talking about 80's comps in general.

 

You know, full of the bands that 'sold out' to popular trends at the time?

 

Yeah. No 'Subdivisions' or 'NWM' to be found, mate.

 

 

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

...YOU CERTAINLY KNOW just how badly this band wanted to ride that wave of popular, mainstream success during the 80's...a moment of time which had their songs on the radio every fifteen minutes, and their videos in constant rotation on MTV...

I guess I grew up with a different MTV.

 

Every Rush video that ever debuted was bracketed with endless hours of Culture Club and Wham and Eurythmics videos.

 

Don't forget, Loc - I lived this - I distinctly remember MTV giving 'Distant Early Warning' (and 'Mystic Rhythms' and 'Time Stand Still' for that matter) the World Premiere video treatment, complete with a set time for the video to be played for the first time. WORLDWIDE! And so! That day and time came, the video was broadcast and then... yeah.

 

That was pretty much the last time those videos were shown.

 

 

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 04:16 PM)

...the only GROUPS that were as popular as RUSH during the FIRST HALF of the 1980's were Genesis, Judas Priest, The Police and U2...RUSH were as big as you were gonna git.

Pffthfhtft. You're just being ridiculous now.

 

I don't know what planet you lived on during the 80's, but it wasn't the one everyone else inhabited.

 

The first half of the 80's were dominated by Michael Jackson, Men At Work, Lionel Richie, Hall and Oates, Foreigner and Cyndi Lauper.

 

No one would dispute this.

[Steel Rat]

I think YYZ was their last overwhelmingly stupefying piece of music. The energy is still there, but not as great as YYZ.

[Weakly Criminal]

[thelocator]

I NEVER implied any out-and-out 'plagiarism' coming from the RUSH camp, and now I'm done implying anything a'tall aboot the boys from Toronto. I USED the SHARK reference thing because I thought it was funny and cute and I had a friend just ask me the day before if I had ever heard the term before...I looked at him like he had four multi-colored chimpanzee heads on his left shoulder...I couldn't believe how 'out of touch' this dude was with American Pop Culture references.

 

Here, right here is the most important point to be made aboot the entire matter...RUSH is an original-sounding, progressive/mainstream Rock band that came onto the music scene at a very strange and also very wonderful time...The world was already five years into the second wave of the British Invasion...Think about this, friends...how the band was assembled and what were the factors leading to their 'identity'.

 

When the TRIO appeared on the scene, they had already gorged on all the stuff that interested them...The Who, Blue Cheer, Zeppeling, etc...So, being a fairly new band at the time, some of those influences were going to show themselves...It just shows to go...Alls I was doing was basically acknowledging the apparency of the transparency of the ascendancy to confluency was considerably felt...Dig? We need to rehumanize ourselves.

 

So, RUSH incorporated elements of both ZEP and YES into their sound, as well as being influenced by the younger version of themselves...As they put some years on their bones, the boys saw what worked and what didn't in their own progressive playbook...They grew theyselves an 'identity'...But, the funny thing about identities is that you might have to grow a brand new one if someone goes and fudges with the entire music scene while yer off sleeping and makes what you once were into something tragically unhip...

 

And, this is precisely what happened to all the really, big, fat and convoluted Progressive Rock band of the 1970's...RUSH, like Genesis, Jethro Tull and YES had grown into such large and lumbering monsters, and now they were being forced to 'simplify' their formula...Well, easier said than done, right? Some bands found the process impossible to undergo, and bailed out at the cusp of the new decade...

 

Other bands had much difficulty, but eventually found their new 'identity'...and others needed a little help from others to find their new 'sound', their new 'formula'...That's all I was really saying...Rush looked towards others more than most stuck in the very precarious position of downshifting from Prog Rock band to Mainstream Rock band with progressive-leanings.

 

Goob, you're only a couple of years older than myself...You remember how popular RUSH were during the first half of the 80's, dontcha?...Now, don't downplay what you remember at all for the benifit of ghostworks...RUSH were huge...Where the heck do you think all these fans are coming from when you go and sit out in a parking lot before thee recent RUSH shows? I just told you that I had a direct experience in '07 where a whole slew of people we met up at the Jones Beach ampitheatre admitted to knowing basically ONLY the material from the early-to-mid 80's period...'Cause this was the period that got THE MOST radio attention out of any period, before or after...

 

 

[thelocator]

so nice they had to gateway timeout it twice...

 

Edited September 4, 2010 by thelocator

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 08:06 PM)

Goob, you're only a couple of years older than myself...You remember how popular RUSH were during the first half of the 80's, dontcha?...Now, don't downplay what you remember at all for the benifit of ghostworks...RUSH were huge...

They were well-known and popular to a degree. I mean, Moving Pictures sold 4+ million copies in the U.S. over time, so you don't do that without some measure of popularity, even if every other Rush album in the 80's sold 1+ million through Power Windows. If you were to ask the average person who lived through the first half of the 80's, however, what the most popular bands of the era were, I doubt many of them would come up with Rush, and yet they did have a sizable following.

 

For selling as many albums as they did, they still always seemed to be somewhat off the mainstream and never ever got the real respect and popularity they deserved at the time. I remember them being well loved by many, well hated by at least as many, and well ignored by probably a bigger group than either of those.

 

That's how I remember it...

[thelocator]

That sounds about right...I jus' had a flashback to a Chevy hatchback...

 

I remember not being a RUSH-guy for most of my adult-life and maybe that's why they will always be suspect, under suspicion, in my book.

 

Along with 'Classic Yes', 'Presence' and ' Deep Purple's 'Perfect Strangers', I got 'Rush - 2112' for like my 14th Christmas...But, didn't really know where to go from there, so I didn't go anywhere else...

 

Signals and GUP and PW were out and aboot during these formative years, and I knew of friends of my given friends who were RUSH-dudes, but I was mostly a Zeppling-guy.

 

I loved to share my love for The Zepplings...BUT, my honest take on RUSH during this period was that they were way TOO COLD, MECHANICAL-SOUNDING AND INTELLECTUAL-BASED fo' my own personal tastes.

 

NOW I joke that I had to become cold and intellectual myself to really appreciate their stuff. Which might not be a joke at all...Fact of the matter is that the band really didn't do much for me back in Jr. and then H.S...They weren't fo' me.

 

But, at the start of this past decade I got a hankering fo' all things 'progressive'...I began making my way through the RUSH catalog, and everyone else's that was a major name in the genre...

 

Funny lil' thing is that I had a G-friend between the years of '95 and '99 who was a pretty big 80's Rush fanatic...I DUG the fact that she was so into music, but I took most opportunities to force upon her what I was digging at the moment, not affording her much opportunity at all to turn me onto her musical choices.

 

THIS is where I HEARD 'Counterparts' from start to finish, and this might be the bigges and best gift I got out of the entire relationship...

 

From that point on, I started to think of the band in a different light...a non-suspicious light.

 

OH, and BTW, RUSH were pretty darn big during the first half of the 1980's...Just as big as the band I had mentioned...the Jewish Priests and the Genesisians of the world.

 

 

[Ted Barchetta]

Edited September 4, 2010 by Ted Barchetta

[thelocator]

QUOTE (Ted Barchetta @ Sep 4 2010, 12:18 AM)

What? EDIT: Never mind. I kinda get the jist of it now. it just hurt my brain when i first read that.

 

It's getting a little late, and I'm gittin' a little 'lit up'...So, my thoughts aren't as well-constructed, nor are they particularly linear any more...Dig?...I WAS speaking with a new TRF friend jus' a wee moment ago, but some people just can't hang out and stay put for more than a sec if they're talking to ya, and ya happen to get sidetracked by a hangnail or unbuckled bootstrap...

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2010 by thelocator

[tkdryan]

Attention, Rush is a great band. That is all

[SlyJeff]

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 3 2010, 10:06 PM)

Where the heck do you think all these fans are coming from when you go and sit out in a parking lot before thee recent RUSH shows?  I just told you that I had a direct experience in '07 where a whole slew of people we met up at the Jones Beach ampitheatre admitted to knowing basically ONLY the material from the early-to-mid 80's period...'Cause this was the period that got THE MOST radio attention out of any period, before or after...

The popularity of the band is not a direct correlation to "selling out". It's really a measure of how close the band's vision of music was aligned with mainstream at the time- certainly PeW and MP were the period they were closest in that sense.

 

But you don't write a song like TS with the idea in mind you are going to become rich off it. It's a great song and that fact shines through so loudly even the radio cannot ignore it, but if you were going to sit down and manufacture something to be popular, that song would not be it.

 

Or take "Red Barchetta"- lines like "Alloy aircar two lanes wide" are not the kinds of topic one sings about at ANY time period where your goal is to make the most money possible.

 

Finally, looking at your poll, "Signals" seems to be one point people are assessing Rush "sold out", which I take to mean those people are misunderstanding the term "Jumping the Shark", because Signals is the point where a lot of those people you talk about who only like PeW and MP stuff abandoned the band. If you are selling out, you don't do something really popular and follow it with something completely different.

Edited September 4, 2010 by SlyJeff

[thelocator]

QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Sep 4 2010, 04:55 AM)

Finally, looking at your poll, "Signals" seems to be one point people are assessing Rush "sold out", which I take to mean those people are misunderstanding the term "Jumping the Shark", because Signals is the point where a lot of those people you talk about who only like PeW and MP stuff abandoned the band. If you are selling out, you don't do something really popular and follow it with something completely different.

Hmmn, no...That's not what I'm seeing with the 'Signals' era at all...I'm seeing a 'distilling' process of all the major popular, or 'Pop' elements found on both 'Permanent Waves' and 'Moving Pictures'...kinda like an extraction process where the musicians 'lift' only those elements which they believe will have the most effect on a total, overall, 'mass appeal' formula...leaving behind all those crafty musical passages, the complex instrumental structures that they were previously known for....

 

Those variables are sacrificed or 'shed' and and all the 'catchy' melodic parts are retained and brought to the forefront...The band had become very adept at melody writing during the PeW/MP era, and it was this main characteristic which was further distilled during the 'Signals' sessions and made the focal point...The Prog elements became more and more scarce, as the vocal and instrumental 'melody' parts took the front seat...

 

Whoah, hold your horses, now...I'm not implying that this 'distilling' process was achieved merely between the sessions between PeW and Signals...It took some time...but this was the overall effect...even if it was the overall, conscious design...Some major progressive elements were still retained on 'Signals'...It really is a great album...I'm listening to it right now as I write this...

 

But, the album was yet another transition in a long line of transitions which pulled RUSH closer and closer to that 'epicenter' of the POP mainstream...Everything with them was done so subtly that you can never point to a specific moment in time and say, "There, that's where they 'jumped the shark', 'screwed the pooch', 'humped the whale', 'penetrated the porpoise' or 'slipped the salami to that cute, lil' baby seal'...

 

One major thought to claifiy here is that both PeW and MP were as much a transition away[/i] from the 2112/FTK/Hemispheres 'Heavy Prog' to a much more accessible 'Mid-level Prog' with some additional reliance on 'melody' as both 'Signals' and 'Grace Under Pressure' were further transitions away from that 'Mid-level Prog' to an even more 'Low-level Prog' with even more, additional reliance on straight-away, mainstream melody...

 

* Additional Aquatic Jokes come courtesy of Tick, The Necromancer 77, and Mara.

 

 

[SlyJeff]

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 4 2010, 02:35 PM)

Hmmn, no...That's not what I'm seeing with the 'Signals' era at all...I'm seeing a 'distilling' process of all the major popular, or 'Pop' elements found on both 'Permanent Waves' and 'Moving Pictures'...kinda like an extraction process where the musicians 'lift' only those elements which they believe will have the most effect on a total, overall, 'mass appeal' formula...leaving behind all those crafty musical passages, the complex instrumental structures that they were previously known for....

If you are lifting only those elements which are popular, you do not start off your album in 7/8. Geddy has already told us why they ramped up the keys- it was something he was interested in as a songwriter at the time. I have no reason to doubt that.

 

Of course, no one will ever know the true motives the guys had behind the decisions they made, but of any band out there they are the ones who've made a name of themselves doing it "their way". Personally, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I have no reason not to.

 

And for the record, I like that their definition of what Rush meant was open enough that that they could embrace Pop influences as much as Rock. Open minds yielded open music, and some of the best music this world has ever known.

[Mr. Not]

QUOTE (losingit2k @ Sep 1 2010, 07:33 AM)

The Only song I can think of that would apply would be... Roll the Bones!

Seriously. Why did the poll start at pew and stop at presto? Should have started with Signals and ended with snakes & arrows.

[ReRushed]

Obviously, Rush jumped the shark with 2112. Sheesh...

[rushgoober]

QUOTE (thelocator @ Sep 4 2010, 12:35 PM)

QUOTE (SlyJeff @ Sep 4 2010, 04:55 AM) Finally, looking at your poll, "Signals" seems to be one point people are assessing Rush "sold out", which I take to mean those people are misunderstanding the term "Jumping the Shark", because Signals is the point where a lot of those people you talk about who only like PeW and MP stuff abandoned the band. If you are selling out, you don't do something really popular and follow it with something completely different. Hmmn, no...That's not what I'm seeing with the 'Signals' era at all...I'm seeing a 'distilling' process of all the major popular, or 'Pop' elements found on both 'Permanent Waves' and 'Moving Pictures'...kinda like an extraction process where the musicians 'lift' only those elements which they believe will have the most effect on a total, overall, 'mass appeal' formula...leaving behind all those crafty musical passages, the complex instrumental structures that they were previously known for....   Those variables are sacrificed or 'shed' and and all the 'catchy' melodic parts are retained and brought to the forefront...The band had become very adept at melody writing during the PeW/MP era, and it was this main characteristic which was further distilled during the 'Signals' sessions and made the focal point...The Prog elements became more and more scarce, as the vocal and instrumental 'melody' parts took the front seat...   Whoah, hold your horses, now...I'm not implying that this 'distilling' process was achieved merely between the sessions between PeW and Signals...It took some time...but this was the overall effect...even if it was the overall, conscious design...Some major progressive elements were still retained on 'Signals'...It really is a great album...I'm listening to it right now as I write this...   But, the album was yet another transition in a long line of transitions which pulled RUSH closer and closer to that 'epicenter' of the POP mainstream...Everything with them was done so subtly that you can never point to a specific moment in time and say, "There, that's where they 'jumped the shark', 'screwed the pooch', 'humped the whale', 'penetrated the porpoise' or 'slipped the salami to that cute, lil' baby seal'...   One major thought to claifiy here is that both PeW and MP were as much a transition away[/i] from the 2112/FTK/Hemispheres 'Heavy Prog' to a much more accessible 'Mid-level Prog' with some additional reliance on 'melody' as both 'Signals' and 'Grace Under Pressure' were further transitions away from that 'Mid-level Prog' to an even more 'Low-level Prog' with even more, additional reliance on straight-away, mainstream melody...   * Additional Aquatic Jokes come courtesy of Tick, The Necromancer 77, and Mara. Here is why I don't believe that Rush tailored their music (or sold out if you will) just to sell more records. I can understand why you used Signals to illustrate your point, but there are two reasons why this doesn't work:   1. It didn't work if what you're implying is true. Moving Pictures sold over 4 million copies in the U.S. Signals sold over 1 million, a major step down if you're talking purely about sales, AND it alienated a lot of existing fans by going in a whole new direction.   2. Rush have said many times that they could have gone and made "Moving Pictures II" because they were very comfortable with that formula, and they chose instead to try new things and go in a whole different direction. If your point is true, Rush are outright lying. I really don't think Rush are capable of intentionally writing a hit song or album. They do what's in their hearts and minds to do and make it as best as they can and hope for the best. I might not like it, or you may not, it might sell really well, or it might not, but that's what they do.   Everything is going to be a subjective opinion on whether they ever sold out or not, and the only ones who can really give the truth is the band themselves. They'd have to come out and say outright that they didn't want to make an album like that, that they compromised and changed things just to sell more albums and make it more accessible or whatever. They have never said that they've done this. They seem like a band with so much integrity that I just don't see them lying about it.   If anything, it takes a LOT of guts to continually change your sound. This is not something a band does with the thought of keeping all their fan base intact. They do it because it keeps it interesting to them and because they don't want to do anything just because it's expected of them. If anything, it's remarkable they have the existing fan base they do considering how many times they've changed their sound. That speaks to their inherent talent and people's admiration of their musical integrity. That can be very, very rare.

[ProfGumby]

Never!

 

The band is constantly changing, evolving and aging. That being said, I remember several shows where Geddy and the guys sounded a lot worse than folks are complaining about now. And ya know what? I enjoyed those shows immensely!

 

If you don't believe me, listen to some of the live stuff played on Rush Radio then listen to some of the stuff on youtube from this tour.....the band has never been tighter!

 

I would never say they "jumped the shark" just evolved and experimented. From Power windows on to the R 30 era I (at the time) was not listening to the guys like I did earlier. Now that I hear a lot of the stuff I realize how far ahead of its time a lot of it was.

 

[Apollo]

I voted Hold Your Fire because that was the first Rush album I bought where I actively disliked several songs on it. It was especially disappointing coming after Power Windows, which I loved all the songs on.

[JohnnyBlaze]

QUOTE (Apollo @ Sep 10 2010, 03:57 AM)

I voted Hold Your Fire because that was the first Rush album I bought where I actively disliked several songs on it. It was especially disappointing coming after Power Windows, which I loved all the songs on.

hmm...you disliked several songs off that album so it's jumping the shark?

put it this way, i never liked frank zappa but he NEVER jumped any shark. know what i'm saying?

[Lost In Xanadu]

I knew this was asked before