Geddy not actually playing synth in Camera Eye?

[trenken]

There is someone doing something behind the scenes. When you watch live videos of show dont tell or time stand still for example, someone is triggering those extra vocals during the choruses, and Ive watched very closely, the band members are just standing there playing, noone on stage is triggering each of those little vocal parts going on. Its silly to assume they would even bother with something like that.

 

Another example, ghost rider. You can hear overdubbed vocals later in the song. Well if rush doesnt use a click track, how do you get those vocals to be perfectly times, when geddy is also singing along with them. There must be a guy backstage with a keyboard with a program loaded into it listening to them play and plays each of those notes. How else would you pull this off?

 

[_pete_]

QUOTE (1-0-0-1-0-0-1 @ Jul 7 2010, 08:12 AM)

QUOTE (_pete_ @ Jul 7 2010, 08:55 AM) QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 7 2010, 07:46 AM) QUOTE (_pete_ @ Jul 7 2010, 07:33 AM) QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 6 2010, 07:19 PM) Its better than when they had a guy at the sound board in the back of the hall playing keyboards, like they used to do. There are lighting controllers that are small keyboards. I think this is what you may have seen.   They have never had anyone offstage playing musical parts. The band is adamant about that. They do all the triggering and playing. They did have a crewmember (Jack Secret) offstage changing the sampler banks and loading programs but that is not the same thing. never say never Yeah I'm gonna say never.   With samplers it's very simple to trigger a pre-recorded part. You can watch any live vid and see who triggers the parts and when they do it. Ged can trigger from the keyboards or either set of foot pedals. Alex triggers from his foot pedals and Neil triggers from his MalletKat, V-drums, or Dauz pads. My band does it the same way with less tech than they have available. There is no need to have a fourth person playing parts. It would be harder to have a fourth person triggering parts due to the timing needed. It much safer to hit a trigger at the same time you hit a certain note. They have said that they do ALL the triggering during the shows and there is no reason to doubt that. Briremo, _pete_ knows his shit. The band does not have anyone from the crew playing keys or triggering samples. Loading samples beforehand, yes. But not triggering them.   QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 7 2010, 07:32 AM) QUOTE (Nate1647 @ Jul 6 2010, 10:16 PM) a lot of times I've noticed rush samples intros (caravan, spindrift, witch hunt, TCE) into one long sample, and its triggered by holding a foot pedal down. They do lots of other things to make things simpler too. Sometimes they will assign chords to one key on the keyboard so Ged doesn't actually play the actual chord (like on between the wheels and mystic rhythms). then for songs like mission its 2 different loops (the D to A and the G to A in this case) set on different keys. Watch enough live videos and try some of it for yourself and its pretty easy to figure out Yep ive noticed that too, him holding one key and an entire chord.   The reason for this is he cant really be bothered with having to memorize all that. He already has to memorize basslines and lyrics for songs he doesnt even listen to like we do, has to remember all the parts and changes for many songs over a 3+ hours time period, to have to remember all the keyboard parts on top of that is a bit much.   Could you imagine having to memorize all those keyboard chords? Thats silly. So he cheats a little, its not a big deal to me. A good example of that is "Mission" from ASOH. You see him press one key and you hear the two opening chords cycling back and forth. You then see him press another key to change to two different chords.   Then you have songs like "Subdivisions" where he's playing all the keyboard parts the old fashioned way. Thank you sir!     Subdivisions is a good example. The way that song is arranged, the keys and the bass are not played at the same time so the keys do not have to be sampled. You'll notice different keyboard sounds on that song throughout the years due to Ged using different models of synths. During the keyboard solos, Alex plays the bass notes on his set of bass pedals.   When my band does that song, the keys are played live, I play the bass notes during the key solo just as Alex does, and our drummer triggers the deep "Subdivisions" while I pretend I'm singing it.     In our tribute band we try really hard to do each song the same way the boys do. It's a very complex choreography to get it all to work correctly. Every song has to be done in certain ways and it leaves no room for improvisation or spur of the moment set changes. That's why Rush shows never change much during a tour. Having a fourth person involved would add a huge risk of a trainwreck.

Edited July 7, 2010 by _pete_

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 7 2010, 09:24 AM)

There is someone doing something behind the scenes. When you watch live videos of show dont tell or time stand still for example, someone is triggering those extra vocals during the choruses, and Ive watched very closely, the band members are just standing there playing, noone on stage is triggering each of those little vocal parts going on. Its silly to assume they would even bother with something like that. Another example, ghost rider. You can hear overdubbed vocals later in the song. Well if rush doesnt use a click track, how do you get those vocals to be perfectly times, when geddy is also singing along with them. There must be a guy backstage with a keyboard with a program loaded into it listening to them play and plays each of those notes. How else would you pull this off?

Alex triggers a lot of those sampled vocal moments during the song. When I saw them in Vegas on the S&A tour my seat was on the side, on Alex's side. From that angle I had a good view of his whole foot rig, and whenever we heard the "chorus of Geddys" or other little OOOOHS and AHHHHS that Geddy didn't sing himself, more often than not I saw Alex hitting a key on his MIDI pedal while standing at the mic. Whichever ones Alex didn't trigger, Geddy did.

 

This is why they spend eight weeks rehearsing before a tour. Their shows are complicated -- there's a LOT of stuff to remember during a song besides guitar, bass and drum notes.

[Todem]

QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 7 2010, 06:14 AM)

QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 6 2010, 09:41 PM) QUOTE (Joshua @ Jul 6 2010, 09:36 PM) QUOTE (Some Half-Forgotten Stranger @ Jul 6 2010, 09:03 PM) QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 6 2010, 07:19 PM) Its better than when they had a guy at the sound board in the back of the hall playing keyboards, like they used to do. What are you talking about? Exactly. Whut? I think he might be talking about their live engineer, he would handle some of the triggering. He probably had a keyboard or a computer to do that, or both.   A lot of bands have a guy that just sits there every show triggering things. You cant do it automatically because not every band plays the songs at the exact same tempo every night.   People that dont know much about technology have this perception that these guys are just wizards up there doing everything themselves. There are people behind the scenes helping them. I cant remember which tour it was, may have been RTB or CP, prolly CP. Not really sure. IDk somehwere in between 88-92? Miami Arena.   We were sitting lower bowl about 15 rows up towards the back looking down on the mixing console. Before the show I noticed a Keyboard at the mixing console. Wondered if it was just for sudio tests or whatever.   During the entire show this dude stood there and played almost all the keyboard parts. Geddy even introduced him about 2/3 of the way through the show.   I don't know if his rig died and they had 'quick fix' something or if the whole tour was done that way, but it was there and it did happen. I have seen every show in South Florida since 82-83 Signals tour.   Never has Geddy introduced anyone in the crew let alone someone playing keys other than he.   Not meant to be rude but WTF are you talking about? What show? Never happened.   Not saying the guy was not doing what you said...but Geddy never introduced anyone...even the band.

Edited July 7, 2010 by Todem

[irish_matt]

QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 7 2010, 08:24 AM)

There is someone doing something behind the scenes. When you watch live videos of show dont tell or time stand still for example, someone is triggering those extra vocals during the choruses, and Ive watched very closely, the band members are just standing there playing, noone on stage is triggering each of those little vocal parts going on. Its silly to assume they would even bother with something like that. Another example, ghost rider. You can hear overdubbed vocals later in the song. Well if rush doesnt use a click track, how do you get those vocals to be perfectly times, when geddy is also singing along with them. There must be a guy backstage with a keyboard with a program loaded into it listening to them play and plays each of those notes. How else would you pull this off?

Rush used to use Click tracks to ensure the sampled backing vocals etc were in perfect time and sync. However, Neil has rehearsed his timing so well over the years that he plays to the recorded part like another musician would play to a drummer. He adjusts if he is out slightly. He has spoken about how night after night me may speed up a song or slow it down very slightly so the backing vocal sits better in the song.

 

Also, Neil spends an extra 2-3 weeks in pre-rehearsal by himself before the rest of the band shows up getting the time right for the songs on tour.

 

There was a behind the scenes video on youtube where the monitor guy talked about them not using a click track. He also mentioned what Neil likes to have in his mix. most of what he takes are the sequences and backing vocals.. all his points of reference.

[briremo]

QUOTE (Todem @ Jul 7 2010, 08:47 AM)

QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 7 2010, 06:14 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 6 2010, 09:41 PM) QUOTE (Joshua @ Jul 6 2010, 09:36 PM) QUOTE (Some Half-Forgotten Stranger @ Jul 6 2010, 09:03 PM) QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 6 2010, 07:19 PM) Its better than when they had a guy at the sound board in the back of the hall playing keyboards, like they used to do. What are you talking about? Exactly. Whut? I think he might be talking about their live engineer, he would handle some of the triggering. He probably had a keyboard or a computer to do that, or both.   A lot of bands have a guy that just sits there every show triggering things. You cant do it automatically because not every band plays the songs at the exact same tempo every night.   People that dont know much about technology have this perception that these guys are just wizards up there doing everything themselves. There are people behind the scenes helping them. I cant remember which tour it was, may have been RTB or CP, prolly CP. Not really sure. IDk somehwere in between 88-92? Miami Arena.   We were sitting lower bowl about 15 rows up towards the back looking down on the mixing console. Before the show I noticed a Keyboard at the mixing console. Wondered if it was just for sudio tests or whatever.   During the entire show this dude stood there and played almost all the keyboard parts. Geddy even introduced him about 2/3 of the way through the show.   I don't know if his rig died and they had 'quick fix' something or if the whole tour was done that way, but it was there and it did happen. I have seen every show in South Florida since 82-83 Signals tour.   Never has Geddy introduced anyone in the crew let alone someone playing keys other than he.   Not meant to be rude but WTF are you talking about? What show? Never happened.   Not saying the guy was not doing what you said...but Geddy never introduced anyone...even the band. I can stipulate that _pete_ knows his shit, and clearly I'm no dolt as I was the first one to state that Alex and Ged use triggering to play pre-recorded tracks. I've watched them do this for years and have been impressed with their skills. The amount of preproduction no small feat.   You all can say whatever you want, it's all fine and good. I can tell you I've been a musician since I was in middle school and I know a few things too, and I know what I saw. I watched the guy for nearly two hours at the console. I know what he was doing.   Say what you want. It won't hurt my feelings or change what I saw. I'm not dissing the band, I love this band, just stating what I saw.

Edited July 7, 2010 by briremo

[cygnus_thegodofbalance]

What amazes me is when they play Limelight live. Right after Alex's solo, Geddy is playing bass, singing, and triggering the synth part with his feet. I don't know how to explain it, but you can clearly see him playing the part with his feet on the S&A DVD. That's a lot to do!

[Ron2112]

QUOTE (_pete_ @ Jul 7 2010, 07:33 AM)

QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 6 2010, 07:19 PM) Its better than when they had a guy at the sound board in the back of the hall playing keyboards, like they used to do. There are lighting controllers that are small keyboards. I think this is what you may have seen.   They have never had anyone offstage playing musical parts. The band is adamant about that. They do all the triggering and playing. They did have a crewmember (Jack Secret) offstage changing the sampler banks and loading programs but that is not the same thing. This.   Back in the 80s and early 90s, before keyboards had enough onboard memory to store all the sequences needed for an entire show, Tony Gerianos (Jack Secret) used to load the sequences remotely a song or two in advance.   Alex has discussed this pretty extensively in various guitar magazines over the years AND Geddy makes a reference in one of the tourbooks from that era (GUP or PoW, I think). They have never used an off-stage keyboard player.   Peace, Ron

Edited July 7, 2010 by Ron2112

[Merely Space]

Very interesting discussion. Keep it up.

[Joshua]

Thank you _pete_

[Nate1647]

Rush indeed triggers EVERYTHING themselves. As far as backing vocals on songs, Neil has a metronome that flashes a few counts of the tempo at the beginning, then they just go. they've been playing so long that staying in time isn't really an issue for them. In the Rush concert tech doc, they mention that anytime a tempo specific loop/sample is triggered, it plays significantly louder in neil IEM's so he can play along with it. My band does this too, and after a few years of doing it, its pretty easy to stay within 5-10 bpms of your original tempo, then slide right back in when you hear the vocal/keyboard sample. One of my favorite things about Rush is the foot pedals, keyboards, neils v drums, and the overall distribution of sample triggering. I've followed a lot very closely.

 

As for technology helping out, there was a BIG jump up from 84-87 in the tech rush used i believe. Just watch Between the wheels here (

). When the chorus rolls around, geddy has to play the keyboard chords with his hands, while alex covers the bass part on his pedals. Nowadays, Alex just plays the guitar part while Geddy can still play on the bass, because he has the keyboard chords assigned to 3 of his foot pedals under the keyboard.

 

Skip ahead to the Show of Hands DVD (just a few years later) and you can see how much their tech had evolved. Geddy can run keyboard loops by holding single keys (mission), can trigger long sequences with his feet (prime mover), and can trigger huge chords with choir, orchestra and synth (marathon) with just single key presses. Not to mention that was when neil finally got his electronics hooked up to a legitimate sampler, giving him access to ANY sounds he needed. Plus he got the Malletkat which is just an awesome little piece of gear all around.

 

This stuff honestly isn't that hard to do. My band pulls it off with relative ease. This sampler (http://www.roland.com/products/en/SPD-S/) sits back at my drumset. Its hooked up to the MIDI thru of this keyboard (http://www.alesis.com/micron). Then I bought an old organ and converted its pedals into a MIDI controller. (no pictures sorry). That runs into the keyboard, giving it control over the keyboard (which has a sequencer) AND the sampler. That way the guitarist can trigger things from both, the bassist has the actual keyboard near his setup so he can play more intriquite lines if needed, and i have the sampler back with me so i can still hit pads if i need to (I also have a few pads and pedals scattered across the drum kit for samples)

 

Well that was a lengthy post haha

[Alex]

QUOTE (cygnus_thegodofbalance @ Jul 7 2010, 09:45 AM)

What amazes me is when they play Limelight live. Right after Alex's solo, Geddy is playing bass, singing, and triggering the synth part with his feet. I don't know how to explain it, but you can clearly see him playing the part with his feet on the S&A DVD. That's a lot to do!

Yeah but the thing is, its not enough! Us fans need to see MORE effort than that

 

 

[TheBluePhoenix]

QUOTE (shaun3701 @ Jul 6 2010, 06:56 PM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KpFTDBaJ-w You can clearly see Geddy take his hands completely off the keyboard while it's still playing. What's going on here?

That is terrible! How dare he do that! I feel you have good reason to tear up your tickets in protest of his outrageous actions!

 

[Mystic Slipperman]

I've played in a few bands where triggering backing vocals was quite common. Now that the technology is so advanced, it seems like nearly anything is possible.

 

I don't doubt that Rush play/trigger everything themselves. No wonder they have that much rehearsal before a tour!!!

[shaun3701]

does anyone know why Geddy keeps saying "you talkin' to me?" at the beginning of the song? lol

[Mara]

QUOTE (Mystic Slipperman @ Jul 7 2010, 12:36 PM)

I've played in a few bands where triggering backing vocals was quite common. Now that the technology is so advanced, it seems like nearly anything is possible. I don't doubt that Rush play/trigger everything themselves. No wonder they have that much rehearsal before a tour!!!

And I wonder if it's one reason why they have a static setlist. NO, THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT ON MY PART!!!

 

Just to be clear.

 

But if they relied less on samples they triggered themselves, maybe designated a few crew members to take on this task (god, I'd hate to be the one who screwed up), or (gasp) had backing musicians, it could conceiveably allow them more freedom to change things up some from night to night.

 

But then it wouldn't be Rush. Some people here might be fine with that; I'd find it weird and uncomfortable.

[_pete_]

QUOTE (Mara @ Jul 7 2010, 11:57 AM)

And I wonder if it's one reason why they have a static setlist. NO, THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT ON MY PART!!! Just to be clear. But if they relied less on samples they triggered themselves, maybe designated a few crew members to take on this task (god, I'd hate to be the one who screwed up)

That's what I alluded to earlier. The choreography involved not only with triggers (add in lighting, pyro, and monitor mixes) makes a fluid setlist impossible.

 

Having one of the crew trigger things just wouldn't work. Some triggers have to be hit at the same exact time a note is played or a drum is hit. If it isn't triggerred simultaneously, the whole band's timing gets thrown off. Not good.

[Supersyl]

It's incredible to me how so many people seem to find all that triggering stuff so complicated in use and in playing. Non musicians seem to not understand a simple concept. When you play music, your whole body in synched to that music. So playing bass/singing, playing foot pedals might seem like an incredible task to a non-musician. For Geddy and Alex and Neil it's second nature, and I'm sure they don't even have to think about it. I've played incredibly complex Rush songs on drums and getting to the end of the song suddenly realize the song is nearing the end, because my mind had drifted somewhere else, and my body played the song "Automatically". It's called muscle memory, and non musicians cannot understand that.... Yes all that stuff is complicated in a way for regular folks, but to professional musicians it's really not that big of a deal.... They have this thing in their head called a brain, that's what it's for... The ultimate sequencer. As for tempo, if you drum along to their live CD's you will notice the tempo might shift during songs. That's Neil catching up to the sequence or slowing down.

[Weakly Criminal]

You can really tell Ged don't like playing this. Still some kinks to work out looks like. Can't wait. Makes not getting Jacob's Ladder a little easier to swallow.

[drgrendel]

QUOTE (Supersyl @ Jul 7 2010, 03:53 PM)

It's incredible to me how so many people seem to find all that triggering stuff so complicated in use and in playing. Non musicians seem to not understand a simple concept. When you play music, your whole body in synched to that music. So playing bass/singing, playing foot pedals might seem like an incredible task to a non-musician. For Geddy and Alex and Neil it's second nature, and I'm sure they don't even have to think about it. I've played incredibly complex Rush songs on drums and getting to the end of the song suddenly realize the song is nearing the end, because my mind had drifted somewhere else, and my body played the song "Automatically". It's called muscle memory, and non musicians cannot understand that.... Yes all that stuff is complicated in a way for regular folks, but to professional musicians it's really not that big of a deal.... They have this thing in their head called a brain, that's what it's for... The ultimate sequencer. As for tempo, if you drum along to their live CD's you will notice the tempo might shift during songs. That's Neil catching up to the sequence or slowing down.

Interesting comment about "muscle memory." It is akin to the golfer who has his/her swing down to a "groove." Do it right so many times it becomes "second nature."

 

[Mystic Rythm]

My head hurts.

[Supersyl]

QUOTE (drgrendel @ Jul 7 2010, 10:21 PM)

QUOTE (Supersyl @ Jul 7 2010, 03:53 PM) It's incredible to me how so many people seem to find all that triggering stuff so complicated in use and in playing. Non musicians seem to not understand a simple concept. When you play music, your whole body in synched to that music. So playing bass/singing, playing foot pedals might seem like an incredible task to a non-musician. For Geddy and Alex and Neil it's second nature, and I'm sure they don't even have to think about it. I've played incredibly complex Rush songs on drums and getting to the end of the song suddenly realize the song is nearing the end, because my mind had drifted somewhere else, and my body played the song "Automatically". It's called muscle memory, and non musicians cannot understand that.... Yes all that stuff is complicated in a way for regular folks, but to professional musicians it's really not that big of a deal.... They have this thing in their head called a brain, that's what it's for... The ultimate sequencer. As for tempo, if you drum along to their live CD's you will notice the tempo might shift during songs. That's Neil catching up to the sequence or slowing down. Interesting comment about "muscle memory." It is akin to the golfer who has his/her swing down to a "groove." Do it right so many times it becomes "second nature."   Yes, good point about the golf swing. I can drum to Rush songs with my eyes closed because I've been doing it for so long, but I could never swing like Tiger Woods. It's second nature to him.... Totally foreign to me

[Todem]

QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 7 2010, 09:12 AM)

QUOTE (Todem @ Jul 7 2010, 08:47 AM) QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 7 2010, 06:14 AM) QUOTE (trenken @ Jul 6 2010, 09:41 PM) QUOTE (Joshua @ Jul 6 2010, 09:36 PM) QUOTE (Some Half-Forgotten Stranger @ Jul 6 2010, 09:03 PM) QUOTE (briremo @ Jul 6 2010, 07:19 PM) Its better than when they had a guy at the sound board in the back of the hall playing keyboards, like they used to do. What are you talking about? Exactly. Whut? I think he might be talking about their live engineer, he would handle some of the triggering. He probably had a keyboard or a computer to do that, or both.   A lot of bands have a guy that just sits there every show triggering things. You cant do it automatically because not every band plays the songs at the exact same tempo every night.   People that dont know much about technology have this perception that these guys are just wizards up there doing everything themselves. There are people behind the scenes helping them. I cant remember which tour it was, may have been RTB or CP, prolly CP. Not really sure. IDk somehwere in between 88-92? Miami Arena.   We were sitting lower bowl about 15 rows up towards the back looking down on the mixing console. Before the show I noticed a Keyboard at the mixing console. Wondered if it was just for sudio tests or whatever.   During the entire show this dude stood there and played almost all the keyboard parts. Geddy even introduced him about 2/3 of the way through the show.   I don't know if his rig died and they had 'quick fix' something or if the whole tour was done that way, but it was there and it did happen. I have seen every show in South Florida since 82-83 Signals tour.   Never has Geddy introduced anyone in the crew let alone someone playing keys other than he.   Not meant to be rude but WTF are you talking about? What show? Never happened.   Not saying the guy was not doing what you said...but Geddy never introduced anyone...even the band. I can stipulate that _pete_ knows his shit, and clearly I'm no dolt as I was the first one to state that Alex and Ged use triggering to play pre-recorded tracks. I've watched them do this for years and have been impressed with their skills. The amount of preproduction no small feat.   You all can say whatever you want, it's all fine and good. I can tell you I've been a musician since I was in middle school and I know a few things too, and I know what I saw. I watched the guy for nearly two hours at the console. I know what he was doing.   Say what you want. It won't hurt my feelings or change what I saw. I'm not dissing the band, I love this band, just stating what I saw. Dude read my post.   I don't need anyones resume as a musician....I am one as well.   I said I don't doubt what the poster saw happened (sound board area having a keyboard another guy hitting some keys and triggers)   What I said is Geddy never has introduced a sound board guy or behind the scenes guy at a show in Miami or South Florida let alone any member of the band.     Read the post again.     Also I think every single musician on the board knows Rush triggers a ton of stuff...but they do it themselves and in real time 95% of the time.       Peace.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Todem

[patjnev]

The keyboard Geddy is using there is a Roland x7. You can load all of rush's keyboard parts including fills on it and still have more then enough memory left over.The keyboard has a onboard 16 track recording studio.But that would not be utilized here.They are using just the sample section.That along with Midi is more them enough flexibility to play any Rush concert. Geddy can use the Bass Pedals to trigger pre-recorded samples . Or he can assign a certain key on the X7 to play a certain sound ( like the opening glissando in tom sawyer) or he can assign a pad . there are 12 lighted pads to the right on the keyboard above the keys that a usually assigned to drum patterns . I would assume with Neil around Geddy doesn't need to use the rhythm section of the keyboard . So the possibilities are endless . When Rush sets up to play the next song the tech selects the sound profile and fills offstage from a USB port on the synthesizer . what part of the song geddy wants to play real time is up to him . if he wants to play the whole thing or just trigger it is really up to him .He can also assign certain notes on the roland bass pedals to play fills too . I seen them do this on a song in the dvds. the possibilities are endless and the roland x7 is more then powerful enough to handle Rush's work load . Its a wicked keyboard I have one and still leaning it three years later.I hope this clears up some of the mystery of what you witnessed there on the video.just in case you were wondering why there is just two keyboards in his set up instread of the multi keyboard set up in the past . With the new technology the Roland x7 has all the sounds of those keyboards and will never go out of tune like a analog synthersizer .