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Fans Are Concerned Did Joe Montana Fall and Hit His Head???


JohnRogers
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No surprise.  Greatness recognizes greatness.

 

You can say Montana was a system QB, who wishes he could throw the ball as well as Marino.  Funny he doesn't appear to aspire to be a game manager like those so many in the media are in thrall to.  Put a mere game manager out there on some of those Dolphin teams Marino led and his name would be lucky to have a rarity score of 1% in Immaculate Grid.

Edited by laughedatbytime
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7 hours ago, JohnRogers said:

 

 

I figured, before I saw the answer!  Pittsburghers (Joe Montana is from the general vicinity)  looooove Dan Marino (another Pittsburgher) and still feel he is kind of unrecognized. I lived there at the time he was at Pitt, but never saw him play live. My sister's company was on strike once, with her picketing (long story) and Marino and his mom turned around and wouldn't cross the picket line, so I'm a fan.

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47 minutes ago, edhunter said:

To be the GOAT, you have to beat the GOAT. There can be only one logical choice as to the greatest QB ever...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

76a4142e9e5f4a7d85463b886c498f94_xl.jpg

Considering he didn't even come into the league until Marino retired, that didn't happen.

 

But Nick Foles (or should I say his team's offense) put up more points in one game than Eli's did in two against the Cheatriots so that puts him ahead of Eli, whose defense carried his ass to victory against the system guy.

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Of course it’s Dapper Dan.  Look at how many different collections of players he willed to Suoer Bowl championships in Miami.  You could say 1 is a fluke.  Or maybe 4 were flukes.  Or 6 were flukes.  But 7?  And look at how many years his teams advanced to the conference championship.  14 times?  In 2 different cities?  Only a person suffering from MDS would deny Dan deserves the credit for that kind of sustained success.

 

I mean, he couldn’t throw the ball as far as Jeff George.  But a QB is more than just a football passing machine you set up and feed balls into.

 

:wacko:

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41 minutes ago, Rick N. Backer said:

Of course it’s Dapper Dan.  Look at how many different collections of players he willed to Suoer Bowl championships in Miami.  You could say 1 is a fluke.  Or maybe 4 were flukes.  Or 6 were flukes.  But 7?  And look at how many years his teams advanced to the conference championship.  14 times?  In 2 different cities?  Only a person suffering from MDS would deny Dan deserves the credit for that kind of sustained success.

 

I mean, he couldn’t throw the ball as far as Jeff George.  But a QB is more than just a football passing machine you set up and feed balls into.

 

:wacko:

You're a honest guy, but also a smart one so maybe you'll be able to find out a way to not actually answer this question...how many Super Bowls would Brady have won if he QB'd the teams Marino led?

 

Respect to you if you answer it honestly, especially in light of the fact that it can't be an easy or comfortable one to answer.  Because we all know the answer.  None.  Only hard core fans would even know who he was.

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22 minutes ago, edhunter said:

Just like the '72 Dolphins would be 8-9 today, Dan Marino would be about as good as Ryan Tannehill now. 

Without Tom Brady, the alternative telecast on MNF would be known as MNF with Peyton and Cooper.   

 

Although props to Eli for playing with a team with a good defense and to make sure when he threw the ball right to a DB on the opposing team, it was Asante Samuel.

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35 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

Without Tom Brady, the alternative telecast on MNF would be known as MNF with Peyton and Cooper.   

 

Although props to Eli for playing with a team with a good defense and to make sure when he threw the ball right to a DB on the opposing team, it was Asante Samuel.

I'm not sure comparing Super Bowl stats is your best path here....

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2 minutes ago, edhunter said:

I'm not sure comparing Super Bowl stats is your best path here....

Since no one is seriously considering Eli the equal of Marino, Super Bowl references are fine.

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1 hour ago, laughedatbytime said:

You're a honest guy, but also a smart one so maybe you'll be able to find out a way to not actually answer this question...how many Super Bowls would Brady have won if he QB'd the teams Marino led?

 

Respect to you if you answer it honestly, especially in light of the fact that it can't be an easy or comfortable one to answer.  Because we all know the answer.  None.  Only hard core fans would even know who he was.

:rofl2:

 

It's gotta be tough when every argument you make for your teams of choice requires the word "if". 

 

"If" Marino had better teams...

"If" Brady had worse teams...

"If" Asante Samuel had caught that ball...

"If" Eli had a worse defense....

"If" The Cubs didn't fall apart after Bartman (OK, that hurt. I was at the games in Miami).

 

Winning every now and then helps to soften the blow when you take it on the chin. 

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2 hours ago, laughedatbytime said:

You're a honest guy, but also a smart one so maybe you'll be able to find out a way to not actually answer this question...how many Super Bowls would Brady have won if he QB'd the teams Marino led?

 

Respect to you if you answer it honestly, especially in light of the fact that it can't be an easy or comfortable one to answer.  Because we all know the answer.  None.  Only hard core fans would even know who he was.

I'm happy to try and answer that.  Initially, of course, it has to be acknowledged that no one can know that for sure. But what we do know is that Brady took over the Patriots' job in game 3 of 2001 when the team was 1-1.   He left after 2019.  In those years, the Patriots won fewer than 10 games once, 9-7 in 2002.  One of those years, as you like to point out, his team lost for the first time in the Super Bowl, and when he left the field with a few minutes left, his team was up by 4.   We also know that his first Super Bowl win was after the 2001 season with the Patriots, his last was after the 2020 season with the Bucs.  In between those 2 there were 8 Super Bowl appearances, 5 of which his team won.  You're a very smart guy, so I know you know that it can't be the players around him, or his coaches, who deserve all the credit for that.   Who is the common denominator?

 

We can also look at how the Patriots have fared since Brady left.  7-9, 10-7, 8-9.  So, how would Brady have done with receivers like Clayton and Duper, or a head coach like Shula, who the league changed the rules for whenever he bitched about something that happened to him?  Well, Randy Moss didn't come to New England until after Brady-led teams had won 3 Super Bowls, Gronkowski and Hernandez (a murderer, but for our purposes here a very effective receiver) didn't come to New England until after Brady had led 4 teams to the Super Bowl.  In his 40s he led the Bucs to their first Super Bowl victory in 18 years.  I'm pretty confident he would have found more success in Miami than the most overrated glove salesman in history did.

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19 minutes ago, edhunter said:

:rofl2:

 

It's gotta be tough when every argument you make for your teams of choice requires the word "if". 

 

"If" Marino had better teams...

"If" Brady had worse teams...

"If" Asante Samuel had caught that ball...

"If" Eli had a worse defense....

"If" The Cubs didn't fall apart after Bartman (OK, that hurt. I was at the games in Miami).

 

Winning every now and then helps to soften the blow when you take it on the chin. 

I don't expect to ever agree with you on anything, so if this is another thing where that's the case, so be it.

 

Maybe it just requires a higher level of thinking and some effort to separate individual contribution to success from team success.   Counting is pretty easy, most of us have mastered it by the age of three.    Deep down and strangely enough, I have too much respect for you (or your intelligence, at least) to believe your arguments are actually sincere.

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2 minutes ago, Rick N. Backer said:

I'm happy to try and answer that.  Initially, of course, it has to be acknowledged that no one can know that for sure. But what we do know is that Brady took over the Patriots' job in game 3 of 2001 when the team was 1-1.   He left after 2019.  In those years, the Patriots won fewer than 10 games once, 9-7 in 2002.  One of those years, as you like to point out, his team lost for the first time in the Super Bowl, and when he left the field with a few minutes left, his team was up by 4.   We also know that his first Super Bowl win was after the 2001 season with the Patriots, his last was after the 2020 season with the Bucs.  In between those 2 there were 8 Super Bowl appearances, 5 of which his team won.  You're a very smart guy, so I know you know that it can't be the players around him, or his coaches, who deserve all the credit for that.   Who is the common denominator?

 

We can also look at how the Patriots have fared since Brady left.  7-9, 10-7, 8-9.  So, how would Brady have done with receivers like Clayton and Duper, or a head coach like Shula, who the league changed the rules for whenever he bitched about something that happened to him?  Well, Randy Moss didn't come to New England until after Brady-led teams had won 3 Super Bowls, Gronkowski and Hernandez (a murderer, but for our purposes here a very effective receiver) didn't come to New England until after Brady had led 4 teams to the Super Bowl.  In his 40s he led the Bucs to their first Super Bowl victory in 18 years.  I'm pretty confident he would have found more success in Miami than the most overrated glove salesman in history did.

Very nice deflection.   But the question still remains, how many Super Bowls do you estimate Brady would have won with Marino's rosters?

 

In any case, we've been through all of this before, whether it's throwing for 93 yards in the 2001 Super Bowl prior to the last drive, benefiting from the tuck rule in the first game of the playoffs that year, or leading his team to zero points in the AFC Championship that year.   Or benefiting from Kasay kicking the ball out of bounds, and having the second greatest, and maybe greatest clutch kicker in history make a long field goal after a very short drive, McNabb hurling all over the sidelines, the dumbest play call in history, Atlanta's inability not to lose yardage when in field goal range to make a clinching score, or leading his team to 13 points in his last Super Bowl with the Cheatriots.   In his best Super Bowl performance he lost to Nick Foles.  In the Super Bowl you mention vs the mediocre Manning, when he lost (not his defense, because Super Bowl wins and losses are completely a function of quarterback play, as I learned today) his team had scored 14 points when he walked off the field for the second to last time.

 

I'll give you that Marino wasn't a very effective glove salesman.  On the other hand, he's not in business with a snake oil salesman, so once again, advantage, Dan.

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4 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

Very nice deflection.   But the question still remains, how many Super Bowls do you estimate Brady would have won with Marino's rosters?

 

In any case, we've been through all of this before, whether it's throwing for 93 yards in the 2001 Super Bowl prior to the last drive, benefiting from the tuck rule in the first game of the playoffs that year, or leading his team to zero points in the AFC Championship that year.   Or benefiting from Kasay kicking the ball out of bounds, and having the second greatest, and maybe greatest clutch kicker in history make a long field goal after a very short drive, McNabb hurling all over the sidelines, the dumbest play call in history, Atlanta's inability not to lose yardage when in field goal range to make a clinching score, or leading his team to 13 points in his last Super Bowl with the Cheatriots.   In his best Super Bowl performance he lost to Nick Foles.  In the Super Bowl you mention vs the mediocre Manning, when he lost (not his defense, because Super Bowl wins and losses are completely a function of quarterback play, as I learned today) his team had scored 14 points when he walked off the field for the second to last time.

 

I'll give you that Marino wasn't a very effective glove salesman.  On the other hand, he's not in business with a snake oil salesman, so once again, advantage, Dan.

Yes, the player's health does play a role in how he performs:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/tom-brady-history-playing-through-injury-patriots-buccaneers/

 

Sorry for, in your view, deflecting.  Brady would have at least 1 or 2 Super Bowl rings if he played on the 80s and 90s Dolphins.  Can you name a Patriots receiver from the 2001-2006 teams that won 3 Super Bowls, other than Terry Glenn who didn't play in any of the Super Bowls?

 

Cheatriots?  Lol.

 



Pools of water at midfield greeted both teams as they came out for their warmups. No tarp had covered the field during the 24 hours of rain before the game. Jet President Jim Kensil was furious. "The Orange Bowl doesn't even own a tarp," he said, "and the league bylaws say that every facility has to have one. A tarp costs about $4,000. The Orange Bowl people said that their Prescription Athletic Turf has pumps that suck out the water, but they didn't get the job done today. We could have brought our own tarps down from New York if we'd known. They said that a tarp would kill the grass underneath, but I'd rather play on dirt than this stuff."

Walt Golby, the stadium manager, confirmed that the Orange Bowl doesn't own a tarp. "It's not necessary on this type of field," he said. "Look, I just inherited this job."

The league, which is supposedly in charge of all conditions for playoff games, handed out a little release in the press box. It described the makeup of the turf: the plastic liner on the bottom, covered by 12 inches of sand and six inches of topsoil, the intricate drainpipe and pump apparatus. "Based on the amount of rain already fallen," it said, "if the rain was to stop at 12:00 noon most of the surface water would be gone in two hours."

Well, the rain didn't stop at noon. It didn't stop at all, although it let up a bit at times. Presenting the release was like handing out a description of a sprinkler alarm system after the house has burned down. The only concession to the elements was a group of groundskeepers sweeping off the water with rubber squeegees before the kickoff, thereby creating a quagmire on the sidelines.

That wasn't the only foul-up. The clock stopped working, causing confusion in the timing of the game. On Miami's third-quarter touchdown drive—seven plays, 48 yards—a fumble by Fullback Andra Franklin was ruled a non-fumble. The TD, a seven-yard trap play by reserve Fullback Woody Bennett, was set up by a half-the-distance-to-the-goal-line penalty on Cornerback Bobby Jackson, when he protested a sideline completion. "All I said was, 'That's bull———,' " Jackson said.

Jet Coach Walt Michaels was still mad after the game, but he wouldn't comment on the field conditions or the clock or the calls. "Look, I'm not a wealthy s.o.b.," he said. "I can't afford the fines."

"It was muddy," Jet Linebacker Greg Buttle said, "for both teams," which is like a guy watching someone fighting a shark and saying, "Well, it's wet for both of them."

The Jet defensive unit, which played heroically in a hopeless cause, was grim. "You stop 'em and stop 'em and force turnovers [four by the Dolphins] and it doesn't get you anywhere," said Strong Safety Ken Schroy, who had two interceptions. "Maybe our offense didn't play up to its capacity, maybe they didn't make the right adjustments. Something was wrong out there."

Not with the Dolphins.

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1983/01/31/miami-was-one-tough-mudder

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27 minutes ago, Rick N. Backer said:

Yes, the player's health does play a role in how he performs:

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/tom-brady-history-playing-through-injury-patriots-buccaneers/

 

Sorry for, in your view, deflecting.  Brady would have at least 1 or 2 Super Bowl rings if he played on the 80s and 90s Dolphins.  Can you name a Patriots receiver from the 2001-2006 teams that won 3 Super Bowls, other than Terry Glenn who didn't play in any of the Super Bowls?

 

Cheatriots?  Lol.

 

 

 

 

https://vault.si.com/vault/1983/01/31/miami-was-one-tough-mudder

Funny, the article starts about by saying that the sane conditions awaited both teams.  It's not like some convict on parole came off the sidelines to improve the field for one team and one team only (the Patriot Way, I guess, they seem pretty proud of it).  And the AEI report that said that the problem with the balls in Deflategate was not that the Cheatriots balls were too deflated but that the Colts were too inflated will always be funny (did  any of these people go on to join the Biden Justice Department?  Was Karine Jean Pierre part of the group that produced it?)

 

While it is unprovable that Brady would have won zero Super Bowls with the Dolphins in the Marino era, it doesn't seem plausible that they would have won one (or even come particularly close).  By 1985 the defense was a sieve requiring the offense to score 35 or more to win, they had no running game and were pretty much a one man team with decent deep receivers early on and slow guys that could never get separation later on and by the Johnson era were bringing in any washed up vet they could.   There were years when the defense could stop bad teams but never good ones.  It's hard to see how this team would be better with a game manager rather than a great pocket passer.

 

Off the top of my head the early 2000's Patriots (pre-Moss) had at least Troy Brown, Deion Branch (didn't he win a Super Bowl MVP?) and Reche Caldwell.  I'm sure there are others I'm not recalling.  With Brady it was pretty much always, with the exception of Randy Moss, pre Gronk for sure and even in the Gronk era, that it was the system and the time he had to get guys open on short routes that was more important to their success than pure talent, anyway.  Then with Gronk and the aforementioned Hernandez, the talent of those guys and the scheme that was, initially unique, that made it so difficult to defend.

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40 minutes ago, laughedatbytime said:

Funny, the article starts about by saying that the sane conditions awaited both teams.  It's not like some convict on parole came off the sidelines to improve the field for one team and one team only (the Patriot Way, I guess, they seem pretty proud of it).  And the AEI report that said that the problem with the balls in Deflategate was not that the Cheatriots balls were too deflated but that the Colts were too inflated will always be funny (did  any of these people go on to join the Biden Justice Department?  Was Karine Jean Pierre part of the group that produced it?)

 

While it is unprovable that Brady would have won zero Super Bowls with the Dolphins in the Marino era, it doesn't seem plausible that they would have won one (or even come particularly close).  By 1985 the defense was a sieve requiring the offense to score 35 or more to win, they had no running game and were pretty much a one man team with decent deep receivers early on and slow guys that could never get separation later on and by the Johnson era were bringing in any washed up vet they could.   There were years when the defense could stop bad teams but never good ones.  It's hard to see how this team would be better with a game manager rather than a great pocket passer.

 

Off the top of my head the early 2000's Patriots (pre-Moss) had at least Troy Brown, Deion Branch (didn't he win a Super Bowl MVP?) and Reche Caldwell.  I'm sure there are others I'm not recalling.  With Brady it was pretty much always, with the exception of Randy Moss, pre Gronk for sure and even in the Gronk era, that it was the system and the time he had to get guys open on short routes that was more important to their success than pure talent, anyway.  Then with Gronk and the aforementioned Hernandez, the talent of those guys and the scheme that was, initially unique, that made it so difficult to defend.

Look, I get it.  I know how it feels to be compelled to make an argument that, if God were to ask me if I believed it, I would have to say I didn't.  You use the tools available to you in that circumstance.  Like suggesting that Deion Branch and Reche Caldwell are "great," receivers (how did Super Bowl MVP Branch do when he wasn't on the Patriots?).  Troy Brown is beloved here, because he was a warrior, but the idea that he is a "great" receiver is not serious.

 

And like a certain former U.S. president, I get the impulse to claim that someone you hate only won because they cheated, even when the accusations sound silly if you say them out loud.

 

Tom Brady played on 10 Super Bowl teams.  In 20 seasons.  No one on the 2001 Patriots team was on the 2020 Buccaneers team.  The coach wasn't the same.  Between those 2 years, Brady played QB on 8 other teams that played in the Super Bowl.  In the 3 games he lost, twice he left the field with minutes to play and a lead, and once he threw for 500 yards.  At some point, you have to realize that he didn't get lucky, he didn't play on 10 teams that were just brimming with talent, he didn't just play in a great system, and his team didn't cheat over the course of 10 seasons.

 

Yes.  Both the really fast team AND the really slow team played in the mud.  I wonder which one benefited from that little mishap the most?  Sort like how the NFL told teams it knew they all videotaped coaches sending in signals from the sidelines in front of 70,000 people, or how Aaron Rodgers said everyone tinkers with the ball inflation to try and get an advantage.  Out of curiosity, was that Colts game the only one where Brady made the difference with his passing.  Because your argument otherwise seems to be that he does little contribute to his team's success passing the ball, except in that game I guess.

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5 hours ago, Rick N. Backer said:

 

Yes.  Both the really fast team AND the really slow team played in the mud.  I wonder which one benefited from that little mishap the most?  

This is where I expect ed to say "I'm not sure comparing suboptimal field conditions is your best path here...."

 

OK, not really.   I don't really expect ed to say that at all.  We all know why.

 

If it assuages your conscience to think the Patriots aren't cheaters, go for it.  You might even be able to convince yourself of it, especially if you don't look up in the rafters at Gillette, or refer to the next ten people who lose weight at your office as deflators, because that's a common thing, you know.

 

More on the rest of your comment in another thread.

 

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5 hours ago, Rick N. Backer said:

Look, I get it.  I know how it feels to be compelled to make an argument that, if God were to ask me if I believed it, I would have to say I didn't.  You use the tools available to you in that circumstance.  Like suggesting that Deion Branch and Reche Caldwell are "great," receivers (how did Super Bowl MVP Branch do when he wasn't on the Patriots?).  Troy Brown is beloved here, because he was a warrior, but the idea that he is a "great" receiver is not serious.

 

And like a certain former U.S. president, I get the impulse to claim that someone you hate only won because they cheated, even when the accusations sound silly if you say them out loud.

 

Tom Brady played on 10 Super Bowl teams.  In 20 seasons.  No one on the 2001 Patriots team was on the 2020 Buccaneers team.  The coach wasn't the same.  Between those 2 years, Brady played QB on 8 other teams that played in the Super Bowl.  In the 3 games he lost, twice he left the field with minutes to play and a lead, and once he threw for 500 yards.  At some point, you have to realize that he didn't get lucky, he didn't play on 10 teams that were just brimming with talent, he didn't just play in a great system, and his team didn't cheat over the course of 10 seasons.

 

 

 

You wrote "I know how it feels to be compelled to make an argument that, if God were to ask me if I believed it, I would have to say I didn't.". You mean like Brady would have won at least one Super Bowl if he was on Marino's Dolphins?   But He'd be laughing too hard to ask you that.

 

I missed the part of my response where I suggested that Branch or Caldwell or Brown were great receivers, because obviously they weren't.  You asked to name some receivers on those teams, so I did.   And no more.

 

There are more elements to an NFL passing game than the QB and receivers.  There's the offensive line, the scheme, and schedule of defenses that you play.

 

The funny thing about these arguments is that by exalting one element of a team you minimize or denigrate another.  Part of me wonders why you exalt Brady over Belichick and the organization, though I suspect it has to do with the fact that there's a shadowy element to them, even more so than with Brady, but I suspect you'll remain a fan of the organization long after the player is gone so it still seems somewhat strange.

 

The fact is that Belichick kept teams with a COVID riddled Cam Newton and McCorkle Jones around or over .500 speaks volumes about him as a coach, especially after they were finally not able to keep all of the plates in the air with the salary cap, which Belichick admitted was a major reason why they were unable to sustain success.  Yes, Brady was better than those guys, but that would be the weakest GOAT argument in history.

 

Of the six Super Bowls they won, in the first, it's been documented that his performance in the playoffs was subpar, to put it mildly (there's a crude and more accurate term for it, but we'll skip that for now.).   Maybe a compromise description would be "worse than Dilferian". For the second and third, the defense was the strength of the team.  In the sixth, the offense scored 13 points.   In the fourth and fifth the Patriots were the recipient of extreme fortune in the form of major, historic f**k ups by their opponents.

 

You mention that Brady walked off the field with the lead in two of the Super Bowls the team lost.  I guess that's better for your argument than mentioning they scored 14 and 17 points in those games.

 

The above doesn't even get into the fact that Dee Ford, Billy Cundiff, and Lee Evans were the main reason he even got into two of the games.  Or that Belichick devised a formation that was so deceptive it was outlawed the next year to get the past the Ravens in one of the AFC playoff games.  

 

Tom Brady wasn't the greatest to play his position, but it's pretty inarguable he was the luckiest.  In fact, he may be the luckiest person ever, in any field.

 

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