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Hall of Famer Scott Rolen


edhunter
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On 1/28/2023 at 7:12 AM, edhunter said:

It is complete. Our nerd overlords have at last assumed total control. The Hall of Fame shall henceforth be named The Bill James Hall of Statistical Indisputability. Frauds like Cal Ripken and Nolan Ryan will be cast out and replaced with Scott Hattiesburg and John Olerud.  Actual games shall cease to be played from this point forever.  Instead, all new prospects worldwide shall be sent to  "proving grounds" at schools such as MIT, the Ivy League, Stamford and Vanderbilt.  The nerds they once stuffed into lockers will then drill them in a vast array of batting and fielding tests, to establish a statistical database.  Once the database is established, the prospects shall be discarded.  Money saved from exorbitant salaries shall be redirected to faster computing power, and a pep band. Future baseball games shall now take place in a BattleBots-style arena with Faruq Tauheed introducing teams of nerds who will sit across a table from each other with dueling laptops.  Video screens will display animated recreations of each team's move and subsequent response, and the statistics will determine the outcome. A beautiful new day shall dawn.

 

 

Scott Rolen, Hall of Fame

 

Good. Freaking. Hell.

 

It gets closer to just a fantasy league all the time. 

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1 hour ago, Nova Carmina said:

 

It gets closer to just a fantasy league all the time. 

I haven't played fantasy in a long time so maybe it's changed, but when I did, 40% of the categories were BA, SB, pitcher wins and saves, statistics held in complete disdain by the analytics community, so I'm not seeing it.

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9 hours ago, laughedatbytime said:

I haven't played fantasy in a long time so maybe it's changed, but when I did, 40% of the categories were BA, SB, pitcher wins and saves, statistics held in complete disdain by the analytics community, so I'm not seeing it.

 

I have never played! What little I know of it is from comment sections where various posters suggest that if the team only brought in this guy based on his xWOBA or his WRC+ then their problems would be solved because it worked so well in their fantasy league or in the computer simulation they were running. So many (of the particular vocal kind likely to be on fansite comment sections) fans today seem to be rosterbatory fantasists who think all problems are information problems.

 

As for Rolen, I've always liked the line, "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good," but I wonder if they felt some pressure to vote in at least one guy.

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6 minutes ago, Nova Carmina said:

 

I have never played! What little I know of it is from comment sections where various posters suggest that if the team only brought in this guy based on his xWOBA or his WRC+ then their problems would be solved because it worked so well in their fantasy league or in the computer simulation they were running. So many (of the particular vocal kind likely to be on fansite comment sections) fans today seem to be rosterbatory fantasists who think all problems are information problems.

 

As for Rolen, I've always liked the line, "It's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Very Good," but I wonder if they felt some pressure to vote in at least one guy.

Thanks for your perspective.  I think there's a split between fantasy and computer simulation leagues..  In the former, since that's not what is ostensibly measured, to the extent that xwOBA and xFIP have value, it's predictive--the stats used in league compilation to date are less reflective of future performance than the advanced stats; I can see this being the case but it might not be, either.  If the latter then it could be that the computer simulation they're using is sophisticated enough to incorporate those measures and winning them just means trying to figure out what the game is based on and using that to beat the game.

 

Everyone enjoys baseball in their own way.  I enjoy the analytics aspect and using the tools, if they're appropriately developed to answer questions of predictions.  I want my front office to lead in advanced statistical analysis because I think it will help them win (though that needs to not be the only thing considered in roster construction.). Others' preferences may differ, and that's OK.

 

As far as Rolen is concerned, I support his inclusion in the HOF.  He got there through consideration of statistics, like many in the past who did so, but by taking into consideration more aspects of the game than when BA and RBI and defensive reputation were king.    Getting to more balls and making plays, even if they appeared to be relatively routine, has more value than the occasional going into the hole and piroutting (sp?) to nail a runner at first to rob someone of a hit.

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2 hours ago, laughedatbytime said:

Thanks for your perspective.  I think there's a split between fantasy and computer simulation leagues..  In the former, since that's not what is ostensibly measured, to the extent that xwOBA and xFIP have value, it's predictive--the stats used in league compilation to date are less reflective of future performance than the advanced stats; I can see this being the case but it might not be, either.  If the latter then it could be that the computer simulation they're using is sophisticated enough to incorporate those measures and winning them just means trying to figure out what the game is based on and using that to beat the game.

 

Everyone enjoys baseball in their own way.  I enjoy the analytics aspect and using the tools, if they're appropriately developed to answer questions of predictions.  I want my front office to lead in advanced statistical analysis because I think it will help them win (though that needs to not be the only thing considered in roster construction.). Others' preferences may differ, and that's OK.

 

As far as Rolen is concerned, I support his inclusion in the HOF.  He got there through consideration of statistics, like many in the past who did so, but by taking into consideration more aspects of the game than when BA and RBI and defensive reputation were king.    Getting to more balls and making plays, even if they appeared to be relatively routine, has more value than the occasional going into the hole and piroutting (sp?) to nail a runner at first to rob someone of a hit.

 

I'm not going to protest at the HoF about Rolen, for sure, and I agree that frequency should outrank awesomeness in making plays, if we have to choose (not everyone can be Willie Mays!), but I don't ever want to lose the joy that those moments of awesomeness do bring!

 

I want my franchise, too, to make informed decisions, of course.

 

This article is an example of the kind of thing I think I mean: https://www.royalsreview.com/2023/1/30/23573357/fantasy-players-are-bullish-on-bobby-witt

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53 minutes ago, Nova Carmina said:

 

I'm not going to protest at the HoF about Rolen, for sure, and I agree that frequency should outrank awesomeness in making plays, if we have to choose (not everyone can be Willie Mays!), but I don't ever want to lose the joy that those moments of awesomeness do bring!

 

I want my franchise, too, to make informed decisions, of course.

 

This article is an example of the kind of thing I think I mean: https://www.royalsreview.com/2023/1/30/23573357/fantasy-players-are-bullish-on-bobby-witt

I think the bigger bases idea is fine, but it would be improved if they were made comically big, like three times the width and length and therefore nine times the size.   It might get tired after a while, but if nothing else, a modern day Earl Weaver throwing one or Henderson lifting it over his head would make the lulz totally worth it.  Totally.

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On 1/28/2023 at 11:07 PM, laughedatbytime said:

If there are three worse people in baseball history than Rose, Bonds, and Clemens, I'm glad not to know who they are.   

Well let's start with Ty Cobb. If that SOB can get in, the personal qualifications have already been lowered. We have constant media scrutiny these days. But we don't know what others from ages ago got away with. Somehow it's hard to believe they were innocent alter boys. 

 

Steriod era or not, no one can claim that they broke the rules at that time. So it's a complete double standard for baseball to penalize them simply because they exploited loop holes.

 

As for Rose, there's no connection between his gambling and his 4256 hits. hell with gambling as prevalent as it is these days, it's basically as de-criminalized as marijuana use. I'm not seeing where his punishment fit his crime.

 

Edited by HemiBeers
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6 minutes ago, HemiBeers said:

Well let's start with Ty Cobb. If that SOB can get in, the personal qualifications have already been lowered. We have constant media scrutiny these days. But we don't know what others from ages ago got away with. Somehow it's hard to believe they were innocent alter boys. 

 

Steriod era or not, no one can claim that they broke the rules at that time. So it's a complete double standard for baseball to penalize them simply because they exploited loop holes.

 

If you're going by Al Stump's characterization of Cobb, you might be right.  But that seems to have been a hit job and not supported by lots of other information.

 

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/who-was-ty-cobb-the-history-we-know-thats-wrong/

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On 1/28/2023 at 7:54 PM, Principled Man said:

 

 

MLB will wait until after he's dead to induct him.  I would bet real money on it.  :wink:

They might do that for Schilling.  This is just for him breaking the law and nearly bankrupting Rhode Island.  Rose has the same politics as him but I believe he still belongs when those like Schilling and Dykstra have done much worse.

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On 1/30/2023 at 11:06 AM, HemiBeers said:

Well let's start with Ty Cobb. If that SOB can get in, the personal qualifications have already been lowered. We have constant media scrutiny these days. But we don't know what others from ages ago got away with. Somehow it's hard to believe they were innocent alter boys. 

 

Steriod era or not, no one can claim that they broke the rules at that time. So it's a complete double standard for baseball to penalize them simply because they exploited loop holes.

 

As for Rose, there's no connection between his gambling and his 4256 hits. hell with gambling as prevalent as it is these days, it's basically as de-criminalized as marijuana use. I'm not seeing where his punishment fit his crime.

 

Palmiero is worse than those three just for the Clinton finger scold.  Roids were his Lewinsky and he don't fool me.

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