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should trans people get their own sports league?


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There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender.

Do you see how the term "correct gender" can have more than one interpretation?

 

I’ll clarify. The gender they identify as is their correct gender.

 

And if they change their minds at some time in the future?

 

Doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned people can wake up and decide they need or want change at any moment, for any reason. I love my best friend no matter what.

 

That’s great, but should athletic competitions be expected to accomodate people who change gender-identiies and then change back? Should schools and employers keep accomodating people who change gender-identities and then change back?

 

Yes.

 

OK.

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There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender.

Do you see how the term "correct gender" can have more than one interpretation?

 

I’ll clarify. The gender they identify as is their correct gender.

 

And if they change their minds at some time in the future?

 

Doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned people can wake up and decide they need or want change at any moment, for any reason. I love my best friend no matter what.

 

That’s great, but should athletic competitions be expected to accomodate people who change gender-identiies and then change back? Should schools and employers keep accomodating people who change gender-identities and then change back?

 

Exactly. It's one thing if someone changes gender identity as often as they change their clothes. Do what makes you happy.

 

The problem comes in when these same people expect society to recognize and accommodate these changes as quickly as they occur. You are setting people, organizations, and institutions up for failure by requiring them to recognize and accommodate the capricious nature of gender shape-shifters.

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One of my cousin's is the Athletic Director for a large high school in Washington state. He has not had to deal with this, what I believe is a no-win situation yet, but he feels like it will happen b4 he retires. I don't envy him.

 

This post made me think something: this is a type of no-win situation, definitely, because you are going to piss some group or another off. But there is definitely a right and wrong choice here. The problem is that the people with the biggest/loudest megaphone right now are in favor of the wrong choice. I don't envy your cousin, either.

"Right and wrong" are your opinion as is that of the people with "the loudest megaphone".

 

And btw, I agree that someone born male shouldn't be allowed to compete against females as it's not an even playing field (to use an appropo in this case sports metaphor). The physiology is just completely different. But again, that's my opinion. I feel badly for people that feel trapped in the body of what they consider the wrong gender. It's a foreign concept to me but it's never a good thing to not be comfortable in your own skin.

The one thing I wonder about as it concerns states that are passing laws making this practice illegal is are they doing this to protect the female athletes and keep the competitions fair and even or are they doing it out of hate and prejudice against something they don't understand and/or find offensive and/or is against their ingrained religious beliefs? My guess is a bit of both.

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There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender.

Do you see how the term "correct gender" can have more than one interpretation?

 

I’ll clarify. The gender they identify as is their correct gender.

 

And if they change their minds at some time in the future?

 

Doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned people can wake up and decide they need or want change at any moment, for any reason. I love my best friend no matter what.

100% agree with this too. But the discussion is about athletic competitions, not whether their gender identification or sexual orientation or whatever affects how you feel about them.

Edited by driventotheedge
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I think part of the disconnect here is that people are equating how people feel about trans female athletes competing against biological female athletes with how they feel about trans people in general, or as a whole.

 

Its like people think that in order to be supportive of the trans community, they have to support it even in areas where it does harm to other people, in this case biological females competing in sports.

 

Why does it have to be that in order to show compassion for one person, you are willing to destroy the dreams and hard work of someone else who has done nothing wrong to get to the level they have achieved?

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There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender.

Do you see how the term "correct gender" can have more than one interpretation?

 

I’ll clarify. The gender they identify as is their correct gender.

 

And if they change their minds at some time in the future?

 

Doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned people can wake up and decide they need or want change at any moment, for any reason. I love my best friend no matter what.

100% agree with this too. But the discussion is about athletic competitions, not whether their gender identification or sexual orientation or whatever affects how you feel about them.

:goodone:

 

The element of maintaining fair competition makes this discussion far more complicated than a discussion of toilets. I haven't heard of any controversy related to a biological woman transitioning to men's competition. Has anyone else?

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Just another way to stigmatize trans people. The thought they they switched genders to get an 'unfair' advantage at sports is lunacy.

High performing athletes have done strange, extreme things in the past to gain an advantage. Decades ago people might have scoffed at the notion of people blood doping, for example, or pumping a 15yo girl full of drugs to improve her figure skating.

 

For me what's tricky about this particular issue is that it deals with rare, extreme examples in a sporting context, but also touches on larger social issues. This too often leads to generalizations applied outside the specific context of fair athletic competition.

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No, they shouldn't have to compete in their own leagues, not least because the small numbers would make it impractical.

 

As perspective, let's remember that Lia Thomas has set records, but she's also not dominant the way some recent swimmers have been: I read she finished fifth and eighth in her other events, and that's hardly crushing the opposition.

 

For further scale, Utah just passed one of these "protect girls' sports" bills to impact the 75,000 high schools athletes in Utah, ONE of whom is a transgender female now competing as female. I'll eat my head if even five percent of the people who agitated for this bill could tell you who won the girls' cross country state title last year. And I'll bet you a dime they were not terribly interested in the US Women's National Soccer team's lawsuit for equal pay.

 

As for unfair advantage, this exists in sports _all the time_ and we learn to live with it. Rich kids can afford coaches, poor kids can't. The Dodgers get to sign Freddie Freeman, the Royals/Mariners/A's don't. The USA has all-weather training facilities with dieticians, counselors, tutors, physical therapists, state-of-art equipment and computer monitoring, Uganda (for example) does not.

 

If someone's life is "ruined" because she finished second instead of first in a race in high school or college, that suggests rather an outsize importance. Is a person's life really gonna peak at 22? Is that poor woman going to wind up living in a van down by the river because her 10,000 hours of practice didn't result in first? Most people's efforts don't result in first; that's life.

 

As for the transgendered "switching back," this is a question grounded in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what gender dysmorphia is. Is there even a statistically significant record of this happening? Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

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Mr Burns wearing a tiara under the headline of "Incontinent Old Man wins Miss Teen USA" could yet happen. :cool:
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As for the transgendered "switching back," this is a question grounded in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what gender dysmorphia is. Is there even a statistically significant record of this happening? Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

 

I mentioned "switching back" or the simple changing of one's mind. I did so because of the very real instances of people being confused about who they are and who they want to be.

 

It is possible that some people - probably very few in number - who have the procedures may come to regret the decision. There is always the chance of someone's gender dysphoria not occurring naturally. Dysfunctional families or environments can and do cause much confusion and dysfunction in children. We should always be wary of such cases.

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Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

 

That's the trouble with the slippery slope.

 

How can you not get carried away on a slippery slope? One step and you're gone!

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No, they shouldn't have to compete in their own leagues, not least because the small numbers would make it impractical.

 

As perspective, let's remember that Lia Thomas has set records, but she's also not dominant the way some recent swimmers have been: I read she finished fifth and eighth in her other events, and that's hardly crushing the opposition.

 

For further scale, Utah just passed one of these "protect girls' sports" bills to impact the 75,000 high schools athletes in Utah, ONE of whom is a transgender female now competing as female. I'll eat my head if even five percent of the people who agitated for this bill could tell you who won the girls' cross country state title last year. And I'll bet you a dime they were not terribly interested in the US Women's National Soccer team's lawsuit for equal pay.

 

As for unfair advantage, this exists in sports _all the time_ and we learn to live with it. Rich kids can afford coaches, poor kids can't. The Dodgers get to sign Freddie Freeman, the Royals/Mariners/A's don't. The USA has all-weather training facilities with dieticians, counselors, tutors, physical therapists, state-of-art equipment and computer monitoring, Uganda (for example) does not.

 

If someone's life is "ruined" because she finished second instead of first in a race in high school or college, that suggests rather an outsize importance. Is a person's life really gonna peak at 22? Is that poor woman going to wind up living in a van down by the river because her 10,000 hours of practice didn't result in first? Most people's efforts don't result in first; that's life.

 

As for the transgendered "switching back," this is a question grounded in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what gender dysmorphia is. Is there even a statistically significant record of this happening? Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

 

My best friend's S.O. took a few years to discover they weren't strictly binary. There was an intermediate stage as a trans man. I think you're right that, in a vast majority of cases, people who transition only feel the need to do so once, but finding oneself can be a long and winding journey in any regard. So I wouldn't count it out completely as a possibility. However, the implication that it could randomly happen to any trans person at any moment I do also scratch my head at, because, as you said, that's not really how gender dysphoria tends to work.

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hell, the fact that you even referred to your friend as "her" would have got you a few jabs in SOCN.

 

I refer to her as her because she's a woman. To say otherwise is disrespectful, even in a joking manner. ... maybe especially in a joking manner.

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I think part of the disconnect here is that people are equating how people feel about trans female athletes competing against biological female athletes with how they feel about trans people in general, or as a whole.

 

Its like people think that in order to be supportive of the trans community, they have to support it even in areas where it does harm to other people, in this case biological females competing in sports.

 

Why does it have to be that in order to show compassion for one person, you are willing to destroy the dreams and hard work of someone else who has done nothing wrong to get to the level they have achieved?

THIS!!
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No, they shouldn't have to compete in their own leagues, not least because the small numbers would make it impractical.

 

As perspective, let's remember that Lia Thomas has set records, but she's also not dominant the way some recent swimmers have been: I read she finished fifth and eighth in her other events, and that's hardly crushing the opposition.

 

For further scale, Utah just passed one of these "protect girls' sports" bills to impact the 75,000 high schools athletes in Utah, ONE of whom is a transgender female now competing as female. I'll eat my head if even five percent of the people who agitated for this bill could tell you who won the girls' cross country state title last year. And I'll bet you a dime they were not terribly interested in the US Women's National Soccer team's lawsuit for equal pay.

 

As for unfair advantage, this exists in sports _all the time_ and we learn to live with it. Rich kids can afford coaches, poor kids can't. The Dodgers get to sign Freddie Freeman, the Royals/Mariners/A's don't. The USA has all-weather training facilities with dieticians, counselors, tutors, physical therapists, state-of-art equipment and computer monitoring, Uganda (for example) does not.

 

If someone's life is "ruined" because she finished second instead of first in a race in high school or college, that suggests rather an outsize importance. Is a person's life really gonna peak at 22? Is that poor woman going to wind up living in a van down by the river because her 10,000 hours of practice didn't result in first? Most people's efforts don't result in first; that's life.

 

As for the transgendered "switching back," this is a question grounded in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what gender dysmorphia is. Is there even a statistically significant record of this happening? Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

 

There's a lot wrong with what you have said here. Right now, I'll just focus on your sophistry regarding what's fair and unfair.

 

You give three examples, and they all three boil down to money. The kids who can afford coaches, the baseball teams with unlimited budgets, and countries with nicer training facilities. This all has to do with the amount of money that is available to spend on training or putting a team together.

 

You are correct about that.

 

However, there are no leagues that are specifically instituted to divide players or teams based on socio-economic status. Maybe NCAA Division One and Division Two comes close.

 

But what we definitely have a distinct division in, and at all levels, is division by sex. There is a reason for that.

 

You say that Lia Thomas didn't win every race against the women she competed against. This is true. But she won a lot of them, and she set many records. Think about that - a man holds several records in women's swimming.

 

As far as her not winning every race, I'm not surprised. When she was a he, he was ranked 554th against other men. He was not even a top ranked male swimmer. But when he competes against women, he immediately becomes one of the best ever. That what it means when you set records like this. Your time in that event was the fastest ever.

 

554th against men, top five at least against women.

 

And you don't care about the women who didn't get to compete because Lia Thomas took their roster spot.

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No, they shouldn't have to compete in their own leagues, not least because the small numbers would make it impractical.

 

As perspective, let's remember that Lia Thomas has set records, but she's also not dominant the way some recent swimmers have been: I read she finished fifth and eighth in her other events, and that's hardly crushing the opposition.

 

For further scale, Utah just passed one of these "protect girls' sports" bills to impact the 75,000 high schools athletes in Utah, ONE of whom is a transgender female now competing as female. I'll eat my head if even five percent of the people who agitated for this bill could tell you who won the girls' cross country state title last year. And I'll bet you a dime they were not terribly interested in the US Women's National Soccer team's lawsuit for equal pay.

 

As for unfair advantage, this exists in sports _all the time_ and we learn to live with it. Rich kids can afford coaches, poor kids can't. The Dodgers get to sign Freddie Freeman, the Royals/Mariners/A's don't. The USA has all-weather training facilities with dieticians, counselors, tutors, physical therapists, state-of-art equipment and computer monitoring, Uganda (for example) does not.

 

If someone's life is "ruined" because she finished second instead of first in a race in high school or college, that suggests rather an outsize importance. Is a person's life really gonna peak at 22? Is that poor woman going to wind up living in a van down by the river because her 10,000 hours of practice didn't result in first? Most people's efforts don't result in first; that's life.

 

As for the transgendered "switching back," this is a question grounded in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what gender dysmorphia is. Is there even a statistically significant record of this happening? Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

 

There's a lot wrong with what you have said here. Right now, I'll just focus on your sophistry regarding what's fair and unfair.

 

You give three examples, and they all three boil down to money. The kids who can afford coaches, the baseball teams with unlimited budgets, and countries with nicer training facilities. This all has to do with the amount of money that is available to spend on training or putting a team together.

 

You are correct about that.

 

However, there are no leagues that are specifically instituted to divide players or teams based on socio-economic status. Maybe NCAA Division One and Division Two comes close.

 

But what we definitely have a distinct division in, and at all levels, is division by sex. There is a reason for that.

 

You say that Lia Thomas didn't win every race against the women she competed against. This is true. But she won a lot of them, and she set many records. Think about that - a man holds several records in women's swimming.

 

As far as her not winning every race, I'm not surprised. When she was a he, he was ranked 554th against other men. He was not even a top ranked male swimmer. But when he competes against women, he immediately becomes one of the best ever. That what it means when you set records like this. Your time in that event was the fastest ever.

 

554th against men, top five at least against women.

 

And you don't care about the women who didn't get to compete because Lia Thomas took their roster spot.

 

She’s not a man. Please don’t call her one.

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It`s not remotely transphobic to be uncomfortable that for one trans man or woman to live their sporting dream, it can easily kill the dreams of many cisgendered athletes. I think the issue is particularly difficult because I`m sure all of us would support the right to live as the gender you believe you are; but it`s a stretch to say that this should be welcomed in boxing too. There are no easy answers - in fact, a cyclist (Emily Bridges) has today been withdrawn from the National Omnium event, after a ruling from the world governing body. Levels of testosterone, and whether this is enough as a qualifier, are the issue.

 

"We... understand that, in elite sports, the concept of fairness is essential," it said.

 

"For this reason, British Cycling is today calling for a coalition to share, learn and understand more about how we can achieve fairness in a way that maintains the dignity and respect of all athletes."

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No, they shouldn't have to compete in their own leagues, not least because the small numbers would make it impractical.

 

As perspective, let's remember that Lia Thomas has set records, but she's also not dominant the way some recent swimmers have been: I read she finished fifth and eighth in her other events, and that's hardly crushing the opposition.

 

For further scale, Utah just passed one of these "protect girls' sports" bills to impact the 75,000 high schools athletes in Utah, ONE of whom is a transgender female now competing as female. I'll eat my head if even five percent of the people who agitated for this bill could tell you who won the girls' cross country state title last year. And I'll bet you a dime they were not terribly interested in the US Women's National Soccer team's lawsuit for equal pay.

 

As for unfair advantage, this exists in sports _all the time_ and we learn to live with it. Rich kids can afford coaches, poor kids can't. The Dodgers get to sign Freddie Freeman, the Royals/Mariners/A's don't. The USA has all-weather training facilities with dieticians, counselors, tutors, physical therapists, state-of-art equipment and computer monitoring, Uganda (for example) does not.

 

If someone's life is "ruined" because she finished second instead of first in a race in high school or college, that suggests rather an outsize importance. Is a person's life really gonna peak at 22? Is that poor woman going to wind up living in a van down by the river because her 10,000 hours of practice didn't result in first? Most people's efforts don't result in first; that's life.

 

As for the transgendered "switching back," this is a question grounded in (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what gender dysmorphia is. Is there even a statistically significant record of this happening? Let's not get carried away on the slippery slope.

 

There's a lot wrong with what you have said here. Right now, I'll just focus on your sophistry regarding what's fair and unfair.

 

You give three examples, and they all three boil down to money. The kids who can afford coaches, the baseball teams with unlimited budgets, and countries with nicer training facilities. This all has to do with the amount of money that is available to spend on training or putting a team together.

 

You are correct about that.

 

However, there are no leagues that are specifically instituted to divide players or teams based on socio-economic status. Maybe NCAA Division One and Division Two comes close.

 

But what we definitely have a distinct division in, and at all levels, is division by sex. There is a reason for that.

 

You say that Lia Thomas didn't win every race against the women she competed against. This is true. But she won a lot of them, and she set many records. Think about that - a man holds several records in women's swimming.

 

As far as her not winning every race, I'm not surprised. When she was a he, he was ranked 554th against other men. He was not even a top ranked male swimmer. But when he competes against women, he immediately becomes one of the best ever. That what it means when you set records like this. Your time in that event was the fastest ever.

 

554th against men, top five at least against women.

 

And you don't care about the women who didn't get to compete because Lia Thomas took their roster spot.

 

She’s not a man. Please don’t call her one.

Can we still call her penis a penis?
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It`s not remotely transphobic to be uncomfortable that for one trans man or woman to live their sporting dream, it can easily kill the dreams of many cisgendered athletes. I think the issue is particularly difficult because I`m sure all of us would support the right to live as the gender you believe you are; but it`s a stretch to say that this should be welcomed in boxing too. There are no easy answers - in fact, a cyclist (Emily Bridges) has today been withdrawn from the National Omnium event, after a ruling from the world governing body. Levels of testosterone, and whether this is enough as a qualifier, are the issue.

 

"We... understand that, in elite sports, the concept of fairness is essential," it said.

 

"For this reason, British Cycling is today calling for a coalition to share, learn and understand more about how we can achieve fairness in a way that maintains the dignity and respect of all athletes."

A Brit with too much testosterone?

 

Now I've heard everything!

Edited by laughedatbytime
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It`s not remotely transphobic to be uncomfortable that for one trans man or woman to live their sporting dream, it can easily kill the dreams of many cisgendered athletes. I think the issue is particularly difficult because I`m sure all of us would support the right to live as the gender you believe you are; but it`s a stretch to say that this should be welcomed in boxing too. There are no easy answers - in fact, a cyclist (Emily Bridges) has today been withdrawn from the National Omnium event, after a ruling from the world governing body. Levels of testosterone, and whether this is enough as a qualifier, are the issue.

 

"We... understand that, in elite sports, the concept of fairness is essential," it said.

 

"For this reason, British Cycling is today calling for a coalition to share, learn and understand more about how we can achieve fairness in a way that maintains the dignity and respect of all athletes."

A Brit with too much testosterone?

 

Now I've heard everything!

*A female Brit too. :moon: Logically, I must be overflowing with the stuff. Edited by IbanezJem
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There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender.

Do you see how the term "correct gender" can have more than one interpretation?

 

I’ll clarify. The gender they identify as is their correct gender.

 

stay far away from SOCN if that is your belief

 

(Edited . I'm much more articulate face to face :) )

 

I'm not sure what a good answer for sports is, hopefully something science based. USA Swimming, the national governing body for swimming in the US, recently adopted a policy for transgender swimmers, based on serum testosterone levels over a certain period of time. I'm not enough of a doctor to know whether the levels make sense or not, but at least they are numbers based on tests and a certain period of time, something measurable and based on data. That might be a start. It's my understanding that Lia Thomas probably would have been above the cutoff? But the NCAA has not adopted the same rule yet so she still swims there. It a lot to work out, for sure.

 

Trans people face a legal system that often does not protect them from discrimination based on gender identity. More recently, in some states they are facing legislation that is directly discriminatory toward them. Trans people often face harassment and serious violence just for being who they are. It's not an easy road in life and the transgender people I have met didn't "choose" it, they feel deeply that they were born that way. I'm willing to give them their props and go with what they want to be known as.

Edited by blueschica
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My best friend is trans. We have never talked about this topic, but I wanna say she would say that trans people should be allowed to compete with the gender that they identify as. I'm absolutely not sure about that, she may disagree. I personally really don't think it's up to non-trans people to decide.

 

EDIT: yeah confirmation from her. There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender. They have consistently displayed the ability to compete at the same level as their cis counterparts. I'm gonna leave it at that. Happy discussing.

 

They are lucky to have you as such a good friend! :hi:

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My best friend is trans. We have never talked about this topic, but I wanna say she would say that trans people should be allowed to compete with the gender that they identify as. I'm absolutely not sure about that, she may disagree. I personally really don't think it's up to non-trans people to decide.

 

EDIT: yeah confirmation from her. There is absolutely no reason why trans people should not be allowed to play with their correct gender. They have consistently displayed the ability to compete at the same level as their cis counterparts. I'm gonna leave it at that. Happy discussing.

 

They are lucky to have you as such a good friend! :hi:

 

I'm lucky to have her! I'd probably be a much more closed minded person, and not just about sexuality and gender identity. Heck, you can take out the probably!

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