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The consensus on John Rutsey's departure?


Relayer2112
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Apparently Ray wanted to fire Geddy again in the 80's. .....

 

Please explain.

 

Some thing I read a few years ago...might have been an excerpt of Sammy Hagar's book. He said that Ray was looking to get a 'better singer' for Rush about the time he joined VH.

 

I really really really can't believe this was the case!

I mean they got Gary Cherone from Extreme to get his ass into Van Halen so.... :huh:
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Apparently Ray wanted to fire Geddy again in the 80's. .....

 

Please explain.

 

Some thing I read a few years ago...might have been an excerpt of Sammy Hagar's book. He said that Ray was looking to get a 'better singer' for Rush about the time he joined VH.

 

I really really really can't believe this was the case!

I mean they got Gary Cherone from Extreme to get his ass into Van Halen so.... :huh:

 

That never really happened. We don't talk about it.

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Apparently Ray wanted to fire Geddy again in the 80's. .....

 

Please explain.

 

Some thing I read a few years ago...might have been an excerpt of Sammy Hagar's book. He said that Ray was looking to get a 'better singer' for Rush about the time he joined VH.

 

I really really really can't believe this was the case!

I mean they got Gary Cherone from Extreme to get his ass into Van Halen so.... :huh:

 

That never really happened. We don't talk about it.

 

:LOL: :lol: I've read it only happened because Ray's sister in law was married to Alex Van Halen for a short time. There was a brief window of listening to Ray, I think, which VH lived to regret.

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It just pisses me off that they call it firing. It's not like the guy f***ed up and they had to cut him loose.

 

It also sounds like he let the band down at crunch time. He was considered the band's lyricist and when it came to writing lyrics for the first album, apparently he came down with a bad case of writer's block and Geddy had to do some Fancy Dancing and whip up some words

 

So health/partying/lack of interest in prog/backing out of lyric writing sounds like there was sufficient grounds to part ways.

 

At that point they were still kids with a dream though it seems John's dream was different. I think they held it together as long as they could until the time came to record the first album and it all came to head. Also seems that John was prone to some drama and the others weren't. The question of his leaving or being fired likely depended on what day it was back then. They were still kids, but I think that Alex and Geddy were getting serious and John probably wasn't based on what's out there. There were the obvious musical differences and the health issue which clearly John wasn't addressing at that time either.

 

I'm not sure I've ever heard or read Ray address this though. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't involved at some level given that he was the manager and tried to replace Geddy..

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Funny, I read parts of Sammy Haggars book too and he said he asked Ray Daniels, who he didnt like, why Rush wasnt the next Led Zeppelin. Ray supposedly said its because of Geddys voice..."if they only had a singer..." Daniels does come across as a snake and its a miracle he didnt mess up Rush, but likely most managers are like that.

 

I do think Rutsey was fired. Probably a combination of things and pinned mostly on his health. Not saying it was a bad move, sometimes to get ahead you have to make hard decisions. Dont think Rush gets to where they went with him though. A few albums and likely done imo.

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Funny, I read parts of Sammy Haggars book too and he said he asked Ray Daniels, who he didnt like, why Rush wasnt the next Led Zeppelin. Ray supposedly said its because of Geddys voice..."if they only had a singer..." Daniels does come across as a snake and its a miracle he didnt mess up Rush, but likely most managers are like that.

 

I do think Rutsey was fired. Probably a combination of things and pinned mostly on his health. Not saying it was a bad move, sometimes to get ahead you have to make hard decisions. Dont think Rush gets to where they went with him though. A few albums and likely done imo.

didn't Ray fire David Lee Roth, or did Roth just choose to leave?
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1593362479[/url'>' post='4787421']
1593312813' post='4787103']

Funny, I read parts of Sammy Haggars book too and he said he asked Ray Daniels, who he didnt like, why Rush wasnt the next Led Zeppelin. Ray supposedly said its because of Geddys voice..."if they only had a singer..." Daniels does come across as a snake and its a miracle he didnt mess up Rush, but likely most managers are like that.

 

I do think Rutsey was fired. Probably a combination of things and pinned mostly on his health. Not saying it was a bad move, sometimes to get ahead you have to make hard decisions. Dont think Rush gets to where they went with him though. A few albums and likely done imo.

didn't Ray fire David Lee Roth, or did Roth just choose to leave?

 

Ray didn’t arrive until the mid 90s. Ed Leffler managed VH when Sammy joined, but passed away in 95. That’s when Alex brought in Ray, to Hagar’s chagrin. Leffler worked with Sammy in the past-and was a competent manager, so Hagar trusted him immensely.

 

To Hagar, Ray was an opportunist who seemingly didn’t understand band dynamics. In his book, he used Ray’s attempts at firing Geddy as an example of that. Hagar called Geddy “one of rock’s most original vocalists” or something to that effect.

 

Hagar is no dummy.

Edited by chemistry1973
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Funny, I read parts of Sammy Haggars book too and he said he asked Ray Daniels, who he didnt like, why Rush wasnt the next Led Zeppelin. Ray supposedly said its because of Geddys voice..."if they only had a singer..." Daniels does come across as a snake and its a miracle he didnt mess up Rush, but likely most managers are like that.

 

I do think Rutsey was fired. Probably a combination of things and pinned mostly on his health. Not saying it was a bad move, sometimes to get ahead you have to make hard decisions. Dont think Rush gets to where they went with him though. A few albums and likely done imo.

didn't Ray fire David Lee Roth, or did Roth just choose to leave?

 

Ray didn’t arrive until the mid 90s. Ed Leffler managed VH when Sammy joined, but passed away in 95. That’s when Alex brought in Ray, to Hagar’s chagrin. Leffler worked with Sammy in the past-and was a competent manager, so Hagar trusted him immensely.

 

To Hagar, Ray was an opportunist who seemingly didn’t understand band dynamics. In his book, he used Ray’s attempts at firing Geddy as an example of that. Hagar call Geddy “one of rock’s most original vocalists” or something to that effect.

 

Hagar is no dummy.

well he doesn't have the best personality either
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Apparently Ray wanted to fire Geddy again in the 80's. .....

 

Please explain.

 

Some thing I read a few years ago...might have been an excerpt of Sammy Hagar's book. He said that Ray was looking to get a 'better singer' for Rush about the time he joined VH.

 

I'm not saying any of this is false. I honestly don't know, but we shouldn't take everything we read and hear as truth.

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Hagar is an astute businessman. He sold his tequila brand for about $80 million several years back.

Very rare talent for a lead vocalist.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201311/liz-welch/sammy-hagar.html

I know he tried whipping the VH brothers into shape, financially.

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Apparently Ray wanted to fire Geddy again in the 80's. .....

 

Please explain.

 

Some thing I read a few years ago...might have been an excerpt of Sammy Hagar's book. He said that Ray was looking to get a 'better singer' for Rush about the time he joined VH.

 

I'm not saying any of this is false. I honestly don't know, but we shouldn't take everything we read and hear as truth.

 

Rush was doing great in the mid-80's. The tale of Ray looking to replace Geddy has to be pure bunk, or even just a joke by Sammy.

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Since a good deal of what we're reading on this thread doesn't even rise to the level of hearsay, I see no reason not to join in the fun and pile on with my speculative interpretations of what's been posted thus far. So, in roughly reverse chronological order:

 

Maybe Sammy Hagar, still reeling from his manager/confidant's demise, was needling Ray regarding why Rush weren't the next Zeppelin, just to see how Ray'd respond, and sure enough, he mumbled something about Geddy and Sammy thought, what a rat this guy is, and used it in his book. Or maybe Ray misheard "Ged Zeppelin" and said "Well, he's no Plant" and Sammy took license. Or maybe Sammy made the whole thing up. Or maybe all of you citing from memory have it wrong. I'm no Hagar fan and don't have his book, so I couldn't tell you.

 

That Alex once said he hadn't seen John since about 1990, and Neil mentioned on the Presto tour that he'd seen him the previous week, and there's a reference to his being back stage at the Toronto show of that tour, and nobody's said that he was fat and bald, with shaved eyebrows, and jumping up and down with a toothbrush in his mouth, their encounter must have been at least not entirely uncomfortable. I mean, it's not like they proceeded to cash in on his mythos by writing song after song, and even an album-and-a-half about the melodrama of his tenure.

 

Maybe one of Alex' "blahs" was indeed "John". Or maybe a whole section of blahs was a reference this thread.

 

It would seem there is a disconnect between Rutsy's being such an early force in their work ethic, and, then, his alleged health concerns about being on the road.

 

As far as I know, John never said a word publicly about it. So if there were any sour grapes, they very well may be solely the result of our own projections of how we would have felt ourselves.

 

The R&RHoF issue is too rife with questionable choices and lack thereof for me to get too riled up about one or another band member's omission. They could have their own hall of fame.

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I feel sorry for John but at the end of the day had he not been replaced by Neil I don't think they would have been hugely successful or relevant the way they are now. They probably would have been a talented but forgotten band of the 70's that you might hear occasionally and wish they would have gone big. John was a good drummer, but Neil was better and established himself immediately as extremely talented and exactly what Alex and Geddy were looking for.
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I certainly doubt that it would be related for royalties on "Fly By Night" since I assume he helped write some of those songs, but you never know.

I'm not sure John helped write any songs on Fly By Night. If I have my facts right, he left the band right around the time the debut was released.

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I don't see any drummers citing John Rutsey as an influence, as much as Neil Peart.

 

 

When those drummers learn Working Man, they are learning John, Not Neil. ;)

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I don't see any drummers citing John Rutsey as an influence, as much as Neil Peart.

 

 

When those drummers learn Working Man, they are learning John, Not Neil. ;)

 

Only if they are listening to the studio tracks

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