Why was Neil so polarizing among drummers?

[Xanadoood]

I've heard of this before, and there was some truth to it before the 90s, but Neil made a significant improvement in his ability to swing and drum organically when he studied with Freddie Gruber...his work is a lot more fluid from T4E onwards.

 

I always point to Peaceable Kingdom as a good example of that. Yeah, seems a good chunk of Rush fans don't like that song much, even those who like Vapor Trails, but I happen to like it -- It's grimey and snarky, and it has some groove to it. It's not

, but it's there. It's the kind of playing Neil couldn't have pulled off pre-T4E.

 

Check out the "tarot card" sections at 1:18 and 2:58. Pretty good feel from Neil there.

 

http://youtu.be/uLB-olUHLac

 

There's a little something there but it's easier to accomplish groove when you don't hit the snare with the force of Thor's hammer. Of course, Rush's music typically demanded a hard hitter. Groove tends to work better with a dynamic, light touch. Other hard rock drummers can do it like Bonham and Joey Kramer but a lot of the songs they played on begged for groove.

 

Neil may not have been an innate groover but dedication and practice early on would have helped him get a lot better at at. I think it was just a matter of what interested him at the time as well as the demands of the music he was playing.

 

It just seems that groove and swing seem to be the only criteria for drummers .. and Joey Kramer? Really?

[78jazz]

 

What made Neil so incredible was that not only was he a pioneer but he never stopped learning and was never afraid to step out of his comfort zone. His strength and compositional skills were unparalleled, to say nothing about the length and influence of his career.

 

He was one in a lifetime.

 

This is probably one of the more eloquent statements on Neil as a drummer here that I have read. He was an excellent composer, but overlooking the rigidity that results is a bit absurd.

[upstateNYfan]

Neil would have never considered himself a great jazz drummer at all. What is significant is his willingness to try, and try so many things so many times.

 

He never sat on his laurels.

 

No question when you're at the top people will try to tear you down.

 

Again, for every person who thought he was stuff, couldn't swing... fine. A hundred others would love him. And they should.

 

His influence is as great as it gets.

[Xanadoood]

 

What made Neil so incredible was that not only was he a pioneer but he never stopped learning and was never afraid to step out of his comfort zone. His strength and compositional skills were unparalleled, to say nothing about the length and influence of his career.

 

He was one in a lifetime.

 

This is probably one of the more eloquent statements on Neil as a drummer here that I have read. He was an excellent composer, but overlooking the rigidity that results is a bit absurd.

 

 

But isn’t it the end result that matters? I see so many videos on YouTube of guys swinging and groovin with great chops but it just comes across as musical masturbation for other drummers

[78jazz]

Yep. This is why I say the result of his drumming is a bit rigid.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

I've heard of this before, and there was some truth to it before the 90s, but Neil made a significant improvement in his ability to swing and drum organically when he studied with Freddie Gruber...his work is a lot more fluid from T4E onwards.

 

I always point to Peaceable Kingdom as a good example of that. Yeah, seems a good chunk of Rush fans don't like that song much, even those who like Vapor Trails, but I happen to like it -- It's grimey and snarky, and it has some groove to it. It's not

, but it's there. It's the kind of playing Neil couldn't have pulled off pre-T4E.

 

Check out the "tarot card" sections at 1:18 and 2:58. Pretty good feel from Neil there.

 

http://youtu.be/uLB-olUHLac

 

There's a little something there but it's easier to accomplish groove when you don't hit the snare with the force of Thor's hammer. Of course, Rush's music typically demanded a hard hitter. Groove tends to work better with a dynamic, light touch. Other hard rock drummers can do it like Bonham and Joey Kramer but a lot of the songs they played on begged for groove.

 

Neil may not have been an innate groover but dedication and practice early on would have helped him get a lot better at at. I think it was just a matter of what interested him at the time as well as the demands of the music he was playing.

 

It just seems that groove and swing seem to be the only criteria for drummers .. and Joey Kramer? Really?

 

To be fair, Joey Kramer is one of my favorite underrated drummers. His grooves are perfect. I'll take him over a lot of his contemporaries who would seem to have about the same skill, if for Walk This Way alone.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

Neil would have never considered himself a great jazz drummer at all. What is significant is his willingness to try, and try so many things so many times.

 

He never sat on his laurels.

 

No question when you're at the top people will try to tear you down.

 

Again, for every person who thought he was stuff, couldn't swing... fine. A hundred others would love him. And they should.

 

His influence is as great as it gets.

 

I just don't hear the lack of swing or groove in Peart's playing. Just look at the intro the The Digital Man. Sure it's precise, but it's also groovy as heck! YYZ too! Lakeside Park, Soliloquy from 2112, Cinderella Man, Driven, Animate! My list could go on. I just do not hear this lack of groove that he gets accused of, and that's fine. If other people hear something I don't, that's cool, that's called taste and opinion. But for me Peart had loads of groove, and everything else. He was the top.

[Three Eyes]

I've heard of this before, and there was some truth to it before the 90s, but Neil made a significant improvement in his ability to swing and drum organically when he studied with Freddie Gruber...his work is a lot more fluid from T4E onwards.

 

I always point to Peaceable Kingdom as a good example of that. Yeah, seems a good chunk of Rush fans don't like that song much, even those who like Vapor Trails, but I happen to like it -- It's grimey and snarky, and it has some groove to it. It's not

, but it's there. It's the kind of playing Neil couldn't have pulled off pre-T4E.

 

Check out the "tarot card" sections at 1:18 and 2:58. Pretty good feel from Neil there.

 

http://youtu.be/uLB-olUHLac

 

There's a little something there but it's easier to accomplish groove when you don't hit the snare with the force of Thor's hammer. Of course, Rush's music typically demanded a hard hitter. Groove tends to work better with a dynamic, light touch. Other hard rock drummers can do it like Bonham and Joey Kramer but a lot of the songs they played on begged for groove.

 

Neil may not have been an innate groover but dedication and practice early on would have helped him get a lot better at at. I think it was just a matter of what interested him at the time as well as the demands of the music he was playing.

 

It just seems that groove and swing seem to be the only criteria for drummers .. and Joey Kramer? Really?

 

I haven't read any of the criticisms so I'm just shooting from the hip here but it seems what might be happening is that serious groovsters, jazz drummers, funk-rock drummers, and rock drummers who incorporate groove in their style probably think anybody who lacks amazing groove in their skill-set shouldn't be called the greatest, or even one of the greatest, drummers of all time, a label Neil is routinely tagged with. They probably think only ignoramuses would think something like that. But I see Neil as a great story-teller behind the drums and I don't think I've seen that in a lot of other drummers. But to me, a non-drummer, groove is a tool that sometimes fits really well in a rock context and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Yes to Kramer. Aerosmith's 70s stuff has a lot of swagger. It's not like he's swinging in a jazz trio though. They're still a rock band, after all.

[Entre_Perpetuo]

I've heard of this before, and there was some truth to it before the 90s, but Neil made a significant improvement in his ability to swing and drum organically when he studied with Freddie Gruber...his work is a lot more fluid from T4E onwards.

 

I always point to Peaceable Kingdom as a good example of that. Yeah, seems a good chunk of Rush fans don't like that song much, even those who like Vapor Trails, but I happen to like it -- It's grimey and snarky, and it has some groove to it. It's not

, but it's there. It's the kind of playing Neil couldn't have pulled off pre-T4E.

 

Check out the "tarot card" sections at 1:18 and 2:58. Pretty good feel from Neil there.

 

http://youtu.be/uLB-olUHLac

 

There's a little something there but it's easier to accomplish groove when you don't hit the snare with the force of Thor's hammer. Of course, Rush's music typically demanded a hard hitter. Groove tends to work better with a dynamic, light touch. Other hard rock drummers can do it like Bonham and Joey Kramer but a lot of the songs they played on begged for groove.

 

Neil may not have been an innate groover but dedication and practice early on would have helped him get a lot better at at. I think it was just a matter of what interested him at the time as well as the demands of the music he was playing.

 

It just seems that groove and swing seem to be the only criteria for drummers .. and Joey Kramer? Really?

 

I haven't read any of the criticisms so I'm just shooting from the hip here but it seems what might be happening is that serious groovsters, jazz drummers, funk-rock drummers, and rock drummers who incorporate groove in their style probably think anybody who lacks amazing groove in their skill-set shouldn't be called the greatest, or even one of the greatest, drummers of all time, a label Neil is routinely tagged with. They probably think only ignoramuses would think something like that. But I see Neil as a great story-teller behind the drums and I don't think I've seen that in a lot of other drummers. But to me, a non-drummer, groove is a tool that sometimes fits really well in a rock context and sometimes it doesn't.

 

Yes to Kramer. Aerosmith's 70s stuff has a lot of swagger. It's not like he's swinging in a jazz trio though. They're still a rock band, after all.

 

Kramer's playing on the bell of the cymbal on Walk This Way, or his little cymbal thingy on the line "drink of my glass" in Sweet Emotion! That's just the tops. Love his style.

[Rush Didact]

Neil would have never considered himself a great jazz drummer at all. What is significant is his willingness to try, and try so many things so many times.

 

He never sat on his laurels.

 

No question when you're at the top people will try to tear you down.

 

Again, for every person who thought he was stuff, couldn't swing... fine. A hundred others would love him. And they should.

 

His influence is as great as it gets.

 

I just don't hear the lack of swing or groove in Peart's playing. Just look at the intro the The Digital Man. Sure it's precise, but it's also groovy as heck! YYZ too! Lakeside Park, Soliloquy from 2112, Cinderella Man, Driven, Animate! My list could go on. I just do not hear this lack of groove that he gets accused of, and that's fine. If other people hear something I don't, that's cool, that's called taste and opinion. But for me Peart had loads of groove, and everything else. He was the top.

 

Animate has a seriously groovy drum part.

[Xanadoood]

This is the type of stuff I see a lot of..it reminds me of the guitar shred stuff from the 80s.. cool.. is this stuff applicable to a song?

 

https://www.facebook.com/147910631975223/posts/2476794999086763/?vh=e&d=n

[1-0-0-1-0-0-1]

Neil would have never considered himself a great jazz drummer at all. What is significant is his willingness to try, and try so many things so many times.

 

He never sat on his laurels.

 

No question when you're at the top people will try to tear you down.

 

Again, for every person who thought he was stuff, couldn't swing... fine. A hundred others would love him. And they should.

 

His influence is as great as it gets.

 

I just don't hear the lack of swing or groove in Peart's playing. Just look at the intro the The Digital Man. Sure it's precise, but it's also groovy as heck! YYZ too! Lakeside Park, Soliloquy from 2112, Cinderella Man, Driven, Animate! My list could go on. I just do not hear this lack of groove that he gets accused of, and that's fine. If other people hear something I don't, that's cool, that's called taste and opinion. But for me Peart had loads of groove, and everything else. He was the top.

 

Animate has a seriously groovy drum part.

 

To me he sounds kinda stiff on the studio version, but live from later tours he was able to smooth it out.

[Mara]

I’ve noticed In a lot of tributes to Neil there are still a lot of detractors.. I can’t think of another drummer who has such a huge fanbase but also quite a few critics.. what was it about Neil that caused this? Overexposure? Prog rock hatred? Geddys vocals?

Who are the main detractors?

 

On drum forums you will inevitably find guys ripping on Neil and tossing out “ overrated”, can’t swing, play jazz, too stiff etc

 

And probably a high percentage of those detractors are frustrated wannabes whose experiences with "fills" involve specimen cups. Such is the nature of forums and YouTube commentary, and it's not limited to drumming. Anyone can be a critic with a keyboard and a few functional digits.

[Rush Didact]

Neil would have never considered himself a great jazz drummer at all. What is significant is his willingness to try, and try so many things so many times.

 

He never sat on his laurels.

 

No question when you're at the top people will try to tear you down.

 

Again, for every person who thought he was stuff, couldn't swing... fine. A hundred others would love him. And they should.

 

His influence is as great as it gets.

 

I just don't hear the lack of swing or groove in Peart's playing. Just look at the intro the The Digital Man. Sure it's precise, but it's also groovy as heck! YYZ too! Lakeside Park, Soliloquy from 2112, Cinderella Man, Driven, Animate! My list could go on. I just do not hear this lack of groove that he gets accused of, and that's fine. If other people hear something I don't, that's cool, that's called taste and opinion. But for me Peart had loads of groove, and everything else. He was the top.

 

Animate has a seriously groovy drum part.

 

To me he sounds kinda stiff on the studio version, but live from later tours he was able to smooth it out.

 

I'm not surprised, that's Freddie's influence.

[tangy]

“O beware, my lord, of jealousy; It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock the meat it feeds on.”

 

 

not one to quote Shakespeare often, mostly because i am not that well read.

 

D'oh! spillsbeer.......

[Entre_Perpetuo]

You cannot tell me there's no feel or groove in Making Memories. Neil is totally restrained most of that tune!

[jacklifeson]

Could Neil swing and drive a band like Buddy Rich? No, but Rush isnt big band music. Its like saying, "Eddie Van Halen is ok but he cant ska".

[Three Eyes]

Could Neil swing and drive a band like Buddy Rich? No, but Rush isnt big band music. Its like saying, "Eddie Van Halen is ok but he cant ska".

 

Yeah man, groove is so commonplace its not even funny. I find Neil's metronomic precision more interesting because so few drummers can drum like that and it's also perfect for Rush. There's a reason Rush is Rush and part of that reason is Neil's singular style as a drummer.

[goose]

I’ve noticed In a lot of tributes to Neil there are still a lot of detractors.. I can’t think of another drummer who has such a huge fanbase but also quite a few critics.. what was it about Neil that caused this? Overexposure? Prog rock hatred? Geddys vocals?

Who are the main detractors?

 

On drum forums you will inevitably find guys ripping on Neil and tossing out “ overrated”, can’t swing, play jazz, too stiff etc

His playing on Alien Shore grooves. I just don't think Alex and Geddy gave him much material that lent itself to grooving.

[treeduck]

I’ve noticed In a lot of tributes to Neil there are still a lot of detractors.. I can’t think of another drummer who has such a huge fanbase but also quite a few critics.. what was it about Neil that caused this? Overexposure? Prog rock hatred? Geddys vocals?

Who are the main detractors?

 

On drum forums you will inevitably find guys ripping on Neil and tossing out “ overrated”, can’t swing, play jazz, too stiff etc

His playing on Alien Shore grooves. I just don't think Alex and Geddy gave him much material that lent itself to grooving.

I like that song!

[The400Boys]

He was a phenomenal drummer, but no one is obliged to like the person.

 

Sting is very talented, but he's an asshole.

 

Roger Daltry has a great voice, but he's a jerk.

 

Neil Schon is a good guitarist, but he's another jerk.

 

Glenn Frey was a talented person, but he was obnoxious.

 

So is his bandmate Don Henley

 

I don't recall ever hearing Daltrey was a jerk, or at least he's seemed very nice nowadays to me.

In his younger days, Roger had a bad temper. He would "resolve" differences with band mates through punches. The other Who members were ready to give him the old heave ho. He calmed down, fearing that if he did not, he would likely spent the rest of his life as a sheet metal worker.

[JohnnyBlaze]

He was a phenomenal drummer, but no one is obliged to like the person.

 

Sting is very talented, but he's an asshole.

 

Roger Daltry has a great voice, but he's a jerk.

 

Neil Schon is a good guitarist, but he's another jerk.

 

Glenn Frey was a talented person, but he was obnoxious.

 

So is his bandmate Don Henley

 

I don't recall ever hearing Daltrey was a jerk, or at least he's seemed very nice nowadays to me.

In his younger days, Roger had a bad temper. He would "resolve" differences with band mates through punches. The other Who members were ready to give him the old heave ho. He calmed down, fearing that if he did not, he would likely spent the rest of his life as a sheet metal worker.

 

https://ultimateclassicrock.com/roger-daltrey-keith-moon-fight/

[chemistry1973]

He was a phenomenal drummer, but no one is obliged to like the person.

 

Sting is very talented, but he's an asshole.

 

Roger Daltry has a great voice, but he's a jerk.

 

Neil Schon is a good guitarist, but he's another jerk.

 

Glenn Frey was a talented person, but he was obnoxious.

 

So is his bandmate Don Henley

 

I don't recall ever hearing Daltrey was a jerk, or at least he's seemed very nice nowadays to me.

In his younger days, Roger had a bad temper. He would "resolve" differences with band mates through punches. The other Who members were ready to give him the old heave ho. He calmed down, fearing that if he did not, he would likely spent the rest of his life as a sheet metal worker.

 

Yes I remember this being covered pretty extensively in the Moon biography.

 

Life was rough on a lot of these guys. They had parents that were traumatized by World War II. Economically it took decades for the UK to recover.

 

This is why rock ‘n’ roll is eventually going to die out. New generations of musicians don’t have that reference point. Suffering. They have YouTube.

 

 

[Weatherman]

In his younger days, Roger had a bad temper. He would "resolve" differences with band mates through punches. The other Who members were ready to give him the old heave ho. He calmed down, fearing that if he did not, he would likely spent the rest of his life as a sheet metal worker.

 

Every member of the Who was a violent prick at some point.

I mean, if they didn't throw Keith Moon out of the band, then truly anything went.

[Fridge]

I think Cygnus X-1 grooves like a m***********