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My friend just texted me saying Wisconsin has opened up all the bars. Well at least they have their priorities straight.

 

What better way to find out if the virus is as threatening as the media and government tell us it is than to open up the bars and see what happens? We're not learning anything new as of right now by staying indoors.

 

Our state is starting a slow reopen tomorrow for the regions that meet all the state requirements. My county isn't there yet. We have to wait for a 14 day decline in positive covid tests and hospitalizations before we can do it. But at least a reopening is starting.

 

Well if anyone wants to head'er to Wisconsin for a beer or tree at da tavern, here's a helpful device for understanding the local language.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=7OR7yPK4wEw

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If it's in US, we won't know . . . still very little testing!

 

There's over 4000 confirmed cases in 49 states. It's definitely here and certainly should be a concern but it's not time for a full on panic yet. They're taking the proper measures I believe in the limitations they've made in my state when it comes to big get togethers. It's gonna be different for a while but we'll get back to some normalcy soon enough.

 

I think people are overreacting over here actually. At least it doesn't make total sense why everything's shutting down indefinitely for this one, but Swine Flu and Bird Flu and Sars and Ebola and ever other major health scare of the past 20 years didn't have half this effect. But oh well, people overreacting is probably what will keep the US from winding up like China in this mess...

Overreacting is putting it mildly...

 

That's the mindset that will get people killed. The time to react is a month ago. We should have been hunkering down then. If we all did, then this thing would have had a fair chance of dying out by now. Instead we are at least one order of magnitude worse off (amount of spread) than we were. It will keep spreading unchecked unless we limit humans contact with each other.

 

I cannot conceive of people's inability to understand these simple concepts.

 

Let's come back to this post in a month. We'll see who's right.

 

Almost 2 weeks. How are we doing?

 

1 week short of a month. How are we doing? Still overreacting?

 

 

So. Been 1 month now. Have we over-reacted?

 

I have seen videos from ICU's in Italy. I'm pretty sure every person I saw is now dead.

 

I have seen videos and photos of hospitals in the States, showing so many dead that the bodies are bagged up and stored in offices. f***ing offices.

 

Mass graves being dug for victims in Potters Field, NYC.

 

The thing isn't only a lung disease. It attacks the blood and kidneys. Ventilators are no longer the problem, now we need dialysis machines.

 

So tell me - are we over-reacting yet? How many have to die from this population killer before it's taken seriously by the numb of mind?

 

 

> 80,000 dead in less than 2 months, Have we over-reacted yet?

Yes, very much so.

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If it's in US, we won't know . . . still very little testing!

 

There's over 4000 confirmed cases in 49 states. It's definitely here and certainly should be a concern but it's not time for a full on panic yet. They're taking the proper measures I believe in the limitations they've made in my state when it comes to big get togethers. It's gonna be different for a while but we'll get back to some normalcy soon enough.

 

I think people are overreacting over here actually. At least it doesn't make total sense why everything's shutting down indefinitely for this one, but Swine Flu and Bird Flu and Sars and Ebola and ever other major health scare of the past 20 years didn't have half this effect. But oh well, people overreacting is probably what will keep the US from winding up like China in this mess...

Overreacting is putting it mildly...

 

That's the mindset that will get people killed. The time to react is a month ago. We should have been hunkering down then. If we all did, then this thing would have had a fair chance of dying out by now. Instead we are at least one order of magnitude worse off (amount of spread) than we were. It will keep spreading unchecked unless we limit humans contact with each other.

 

I cannot conceive of people's inability to understand these simple concepts.

 

Let's come back to this post in a month. We'll see who's right.

 

Almost 2 weeks. How are we doing?

 

1 week short of a month. How are we doing? Still overreacting?

 

 

So. Been 1 month now. Have we over-reacted?

 

I have seen videos from ICU's in Italy. I'm pretty sure every person I saw is now dead.

 

I have seen videos and photos of hospitals in the States, showing so many dead that the bodies are bagged up and stored in offices. f***ing offices.

 

Mass graves being dug for victims in Potters Field, NYC.

 

The thing isn't only a lung disease. It attacks the blood and kidneys. Ventilators are no longer the problem, now we need dialysis machines.

 

So tell me - are we over-reacting yet? How many have to die from this population killer before it's taken seriously by the numb of mind?

 

 

> 80,000 dead in less than 2 months, Have we over-reacted yet?

Yes, very much so.

 

How so? Please elaborate.

 

Let me guess, the numbers of dead are inflated? The virus is fake? More people die in 2 months of something else, than COVID has taken?

 

What's the basis?

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If it's in US, we won't know . . . still very little testing!

 

There's over 4000 confirmed cases in 49 states. It's definitely here and certainly should be a concern but it's not time for a full on panic yet. They're taking the proper measures I believe in the limitations they've made in my state when it comes to big get togethers. It's gonna be different for a while but we'll get back to some normalcy soon enough.

 

I think people are overreacting over here actually. At least it doesn't make total sense why everything's shutting down indefinitely for this one, but Swine Flu and Bird Flu and Sars and Ebola and ever other major health scare of the past 20 years didn't have half this effect. But oh well, people overreacting is probably what will keep the US from winding up like China in this mess...

Overreacting is putting it mildly...

 

That's the mindset that will get people killed. The time to react is a month ago. We should have been hunkering down then. If we all did, then this thing would have had a fair chance of dying out by now. Instead we are at least one order of magnitude worse off (amount of spread) than we were. It will keep spreading unchecked unless we limit humans contact with each other.

 

I cannot conceive of people's inability to understand these simple concepts.

 

Let's come back to this post in a month. We'll see who's right.

 

Almost 2 weeks. How are we doing?

 

1 week short of a month. How are we doing? Still overreacting?

 

 

So. Been 1 month now. Have we over-reacted?

 

I have seen videos from ICU's in Italy. I'm pretty sure every person I saw is now dead.

 

I have seen videos and photos of hospitals in the States, showing so many dead that the bodies are bagged up and stored in offices. f***ing offices.

 

Mass graves being dug for victims in Potters Field, NYC.

 

The thing isn't only a lung disease. It attacks the blood and kidneys. Ventilators are no longer the problem, now we need dialysis machines.

 

So tell me - are we over-reacting yet? How many have to die from this population killer before it's taken seriously by the numb of mind?

 

 

> 80,000 dead in less than 2 months, Have we over-reacted yet?

Yes, very much so.

 

How so? Please elaborate.

 

Let me guess, the numbers of dead are inflated? The virus is fake? More people die in 2 months of something else, than COVID has taken?

 

What's the basis?

 

Let me ask you instead - at what point is it worth it to flush the entire economy of the country down the toilet? At what point should we shut down everything and ruin people's lives, people who have worked to start businesses, people in college, trying to learn a field and get an education for their future? At what point do we stop doing surgeries that are considered "elective" and make people wait? At what point do we all hide in our houses, not go out to restaurants, not even go out to get a hair cut? What number of deaths? How many cases of this virus? Is there a number of deaths you feel would make this worth the cost of the entire economy and people's lives? Have you accounted for increase in suicides, increase in number people putting off going to the doctor for things that could end up being deadly like mammograms?

 

And to answer your question as to whether I believe the 80,000 is a valid number, no I do not believe the 80,000 number is correct. I think it is greatly over inflated. When the government gives a 20% bonus for "Covid Related Deaths" on Medicare payments, it creates incentive to game the system for money and there is no doubt that is exactly what is happening. Even just this morning, I posted in the SOCN area of this board this article, telling how a man who died of alcohol poisoning went down as a Covid 19 death. https://www.fr24news.com/a/2020/05/colorado-man-died-of-alcohol-poisoning-but-later-blamed-for-coronavirus-report.html

 

And I guarantee that is far from the only one. New York has admitted that they aren't even confirming Covid-19 deaths, they are going by "presumption". So if someone dies of pneumonia, they just "assume" it was Covid 19 and classify it as such.

 

Are you aware of the death statistics and who is dying? Do you really put forth that all those who have died from "Covid 19" would have lived otherwise? I can't believe you can actually believe that when the average age is so high and a staggering 98% of all deaths had underlying conditions to begin with https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/

 

In a nutshell, even if the 80,000 deaths was a valid number and were legitimate Covid 19 related deaths, I put forth that a very large number of those people would be dead regardless of Covid 19.

 

You should post in SOCN area if you really want to discuss, as you may find yourself more educated on this if you did instead of lambasting anyone who doesn't automatically buy the chicken little hysteria on this.

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If it's in US, we won't know . . . still very little testing!

 

There's over 4000 confirmed cases in 49 states. It's definitely here and certainly should be a concern but it's not time for a full on panic yet. They're taking the proper measures I believe in the limitations they've made in my state when it comes to big get togethers. It's gonna be different for a while but we'll get back to some normalcy soon enough.

 

I think people are overreacting over here actually. At least it doesn't make total sense why everything's shutting down indefinitely for this one, but Swine Flu and Bird Flu and Sars and Ebola and ever other major health scare of the past 20 years didn't have half this effect. But oh well, people overreacting is probably what will keep the US from winding up like China in this mess...

Overreacting is putting it mildly...

 

That's the mindset that will get people killed. The time to react is a month ago. We should have been hunkering down then. If we all did, then this thing would have had a fair chance of dying out by now. Instead we are at least one order of magnitude worse off (amount of spread) than we were. It will keep spreading unchecked unless we limit humans contact with each other.

 

I cannot conceive of people's inability to understand these simple concepts.

 

Let's come back to this post in a month. We'll see who's right.

 

Almost 2 weeks. How are we doing?

 

1 week short of a month. How are we doing? Still overreacting?

 

 

So. Been 1 month now. Have we over-reacted?

 

I have seen videos from ICU's in Italy. I'm pretty sure every person I saw is now dead.

 

I have seen videos and photos of hospitals in the States, showing so many dead that the bodies are bagged up and stored in offices. f***ing offices.

 

Mass graves being dug for victims in Potters Field, NYC.

 

The thing isn't only a lung disease. It attacks the blood and kidneys. Ventilators are no longer the problem, now we need dialysis machines.

 

So tell me - are we over-reacting yet? How many have to die from this population killer before it's taken seriously by the numb of mind?

 

 

> 80,000 dead in less than 2 months, Have we over-reacted yet?

Yes, very much so.

 

How so? Please elaborate.

 

Let me guess, the numbers of dead are inflated? The virus is fake? More people die in 2 months of something else, than COVID has taken?

 

What's the basis?

 

Let me ask you instead - at what point is it worth it to flush the entire economy of the country down the toilet? At what point should we shut down everything and ruin people's lives, people who have worked to start businesses, people in college, trying to learn a field and get an education for their future? At what point do we stop doing surgeries that are considered "elective" and make people wait? At what point do we all hide in our houses, not go out to restaurants, not even go out to get a hair cut? What number of deaths? How many cases of this virus? Is there a number of deaths you feel would make this worth the cost of the entire economy and people's lives? Have you accounted for increase in suicides, increase in number people putting off going to the doctor for things that could end up being deadly like mammograms?

 

And to answer your question as to whether I believe the 80,000 is a valid number, no I do not believe the 80,000 number is correct. I think it is greatly over inflated. When the government gives a 20% bonus for "Covid Related Deaths" on Medicare payments, it creates incentive to game the system for money and there is no doubt that is exactly what is happening. Even just this morning, I posted in the SOCN area of this board this article, telling how a man who died of alcohol poisoning went down as a Covid 19 death. https://www.fr24news...rus-report.html

 

And I guarantee that is far from the only one. New York has admitted that they aren't even confirming Covid-19 deaths, they are going by "presumption". So if someone dies of pneumonia, they just "assume" it was Covid 19 and classify it as such.

 

Are you aware of the death statistics and who is dying? Do you really put forth that all those who have died from "Covid 19" would have lived otherwise? I can't believe you can actually believe that when the average age is so high and a staggering 98% of all deaths had underlying conditions to begin with https://www.worldome...x-demographics/

 

In a nutshell, even if the 80,000 deaths was a valid number and were legitimate Covid 19 related deaths, I put forth that a very large number of those people would be dead regardless of Covid 19.

 

You should post in SOCN area if you really want to discuss, as you may find yourself more educated on this if you did instead of lambasting anyone who doesn't automatically buy the chicken little hysteria on this.

 

I suppose there are things that I am not as educated about in this space. I have been following this virus since Jan 10. All I see is a trail of death. Even if some of it may be inflated in the US. There is still a killer virus, and there are still a huge number of fatal cases that wouldn't have happened in 2 months otherwise.

 

What's the cost of a life or lives in the face of a killer virus, vs economic cost.

 

I don't want to die from the thing. Do you? Who does? How do we protect them?

 

How do we protect people until such time that there is reliable contract tracing and testing?

 

Every reopening introduces countless vectors for the virus to spread. Who's life is worth it people going out to a bar or a concert?

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My friend just texted me saying Wisconsin has opened up all the bars. Well at least they have their priorities straight.

Decision was made by Wisconsin Supreme Court that was in separate video feeds via zoom. Did they actually think for a second 'hey why are we doing our business on zoom in the first place?'. Maybe I'm expecting too much for important people to fully comprehend their actions.

 

I'm hope they celebrate their momentous decision in a crowded bar with no one wearing masks. f**k Covid, we want Beers!

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If it's in US, we won't know . . . still very little testing!

 

There's over 4000 confirmed cases in 49 states. It's definitely here and certainly should be a concern but it's not time for a full on panic yet. They're taking the proper measures I believe in the limitations they've made in my state when it comes to big get togethers. It's gonna be different for a while but we'll get back to some normalcy soon enough.

 

I think people are overreacting over here actually. At least it doesn't make total sense why everything's shutting down indefinitely for this one, but Swine Flu and Bird Flu and Sars and Ebola and ever other major health scare of the past 20 years didn't have half this effect. But oh well, people overreacting is probably what will keep the US from winding up like China in this mess...

Overreacting is putting it mildly...

 

That's the mindset that will get people killed. The time to react is a month ago. We should have been hunkering down then. If we all did, then this thing would have had a fair chance of dying out by now. Instead we are at least one order of magnitude worse off (amount of spread) than we were. It will keep spreading unchecked unless we limit humans contact with each other.

 

I cannot conceive of people's inability to understand these simple concepts.

 

Let's come back to this post in a month. We'll see who's right.

 

Almost 2 weeks. How are we doing?

 

1 week short of a month. How are we doing? Still overreacting?

 

 

So. Been 1 month now. Have we over-reacted?

 

I have seen videos from ICU's in Italy. I'm pretty sure every person I saw is now dead.

 

I have seen videos and photos of hospitals in the States, showing so many dead that the bodies are bagged up and stored in offices. f***ing offices.

 

Mass graves being dug for victims in Potters Field, NYC.

 

The thing isn't only a lung disease. It attacks the blood and kidneys. Ventilators are no longer the problem, now we need dialysis machines.

 

So tell me - are we over-reacting yet? How many have to die from this population killer before it's taken seriously by the numb of mind?

 

 

> 80,000 dead in less than 2 months, Have we over-reacted yet?

Yes, very much so.

 

How so? Please elaborate.

 

Let me guess, the numbers of dead are inflated? The virus is fake? More people die in 2 months of something else, than COVID has taken?

 

What's the basis?

 

Let me ask you instead - at what point is it worth it to flush the entire economy of the country down the toilet? At what point should we shut down everything and ruin people's lives, people who have worked to start businesses, people in college, trying to learn a field and get an education for their future? At what point do we stop doing surgeries that are considered "elective" and make people wait? At what point do we all hide in our houses, not go out to restaurants, not even go out to get a hair cut? What number of deaths? How many cases of this virus? Is there a number of deaths you feel would make this worth the cost of the entire economy and people's lives? Have you accounted for increase in suicides, increase in number people putting off going to the doctor for things that could end up being deadly like mammograms?

 

And to answer your question as to whether I believe the 80,000 is a valid number, no I do not believe the 80,000 number is correct. I think it is greatly over inflated. When the government gives a 20% bonus for "Covid Related Deaths" on Medicare payments, it creates incentive to game the system for money and there is no doubt that is exactly what is happening. Even just this morning, I posted in the SOCN area of this board this article, telling how a man who died of alcohol poisoning went down as a Covid 19 death. https://www.fr24news...rus-report.html

 

And I guarantee that is far from the only one. New York has admitted that they aren't even confirming Covid-19 deaths, they are going by "presumption". So if someone dies of pneumonia, they just "assume" it was Covid 19 and classify it as such.

 

Are you aware of the death statistics and who is dying? Do you really put forth that all those who have died from "Covid 19" would have lived otherwise? I can't believe you can actually believe that when the average age is so high and a staggering 98% of all deaths had underlying conditions to begin with https://www.worldome...x-demographics/

 

In a nutshell, even if the 80,000 deaths was a valid number and were legitimate Covid 19 related deaths, I put forth that a very large number of those people would be dead regardless of Covid 19.

 

You should post in SOCN area if you really want to discuss, as you may find yourself more educated on this if you did instead of lambasting anyone who doesn't automatically buy the chicken little hysteria on this.

 

I suppose there are things that I am not as educated about in this space. I have been following this virus since Jan 10. All I see is a trail of death. Even if some of it may be inflated in the US. There is still a killer virus, and there are still a huge number of fatal cases that wouldn't have happened in 2 months otherwise.

 

What's the cost of a life or lives in the face of a killer virus, vs economic cost.

 

You see a trail of death because the media is forcing it down your throat 24/7. Do you see a trail of death every year when the flu hits and takes tens of thousands of lives every year? What about when H1N1 took 500,000 lives worldwide in 2009? At what death toll number did you start to hunker down and be afraid of this thing exactly? If you saw side by side deaths from the flu or even something like "new heart disease cases" and "new heart disease deaths" would you be as concerned? What I'm saying is if you were looking at an update every single day on things like car accident deaths or heart disease deaths or flu deaths, you should be more afraid of those things than Covid 19. You have more of a chance of dying from a car accident than dying from Covid 19 - even if you are in the demographic of 80+ years old and in a nursing home.

 

I don't want to die from the thing. Do you? Who does? How do we protect them?

 

Nope, I don't want to die from it. I also don't want to die in a car accident, but I drive every day and take that risk knowing 38,000 people die every single year and knowing that I am taking a risk on my own life as ell as my children in the car every time. I don't want to die of the flu when it goes around every year, but I still go out. Life is full of risks. That is the decision for me to make in everything I do. I don't want cancer so I CHOSE to stop smoking. No one made me. 647,000 Americans die from heart disease every year. Do I want the government to make fast food and fried food (or anything else the government deems "unsafe") illegal in the name of saving lives? Nope. I think I'll make the choice myself whether to eat like shit or not.

 

How do we protect people until such time that there is reliable contract tracing and testing?

 

Every reopening introduces countless vectors for the virus to spread. Who's life is worth it people going out to a bar or a concert?

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

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So the options will be to die from going to work or die from being broke due to no job. Are we great yet? :facepalm:

 

I don't know where you're getting your info from but simply going back to work does not mean you will get the virus and die. Unless your job involves a lot of travel or contact with the public you will be at a higher risk. Even then it's not a given that you will get it. It's supposed to be a slow reopen everywhere. So it's not like everything goes back to how it was four months ago with everyone just going about things as normal.

 

What would you consider "a lot of contact with the public"?

A prostitute?
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Things are starting to tentatively open up around here.

 

I have no problem with the way things were handled in Canada -- at least in my (red)neck of the woods, although Quebec sent their elementary kids back to school this week, which seems a bit premature. Maybe they hate kids. :huh:

 

I'm sure someone will find these numbers inflated, and the colours saturated, but:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51235105?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/world/asia&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

Anyhoo, I'm very happy to be alive, and very happy not to have made anyone sick! :sundog:

In a situation like this, I'd rather that we over-reacted than under.

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Things are starting to tentatively open up around here.

 

I have no problem with the way things were handled in Canada -- at least in my (red)neck of the woods, although Quebec sent their elementary kids back to school this week, which seems a bit premature. Maybe they hate kids. :huh:

 

I'm sure someone will find these numbers inflated, and the colours saturated, but:

https://www.bbc.com/...reporting-story

 

Anyhoo, I'm very happy to be alive, and very happy not to have made anyone sick! :sundog:

In a situation like this, I'd rather that we over-reacted than under.

No, they did not send the kids back to school. They ended up deciding against it in the end.
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ad. Who's life is worth it people going out to a bar or a concert?

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I wish it were as simple as that, I really do. Our county in PA went to yellow status today, which means more reopening, yay! Planning on spending some money and doing some curbside pickups tomorrow!

 

However, your argument about Joe the barber ignores asymptomatic carriers. Our county prison had mandatory testing last week and several inmates and staff tested positive. Out of those, 80 percent showed no symptoms. Nationwide, the CDC estimates that 25-50 percent of people with Covid are asymptomatic, yet still can spread the virus. So, if Joe is an asymptomatic carrier and spreads the virus to some of his customers, 25-50 percent of those may be asymptomatic as well. And then they go and cough on me while they're walking their dog and I'm weeding my yard or whatever. That's what has been the bugaboo about this stinkin' virus all along- it can spread with no one realizing it. I'm a lot more comfortable around people with masks, for that reason. Myself, I hope for a mutation to something less deadly. :hi:

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If it's in US, we won't know . . . still very little testing!

 

There's over 4000 confirmed cases in 49 states. It's definitely here and certainly should be a concern but it's not time for a full on panic yet. They're taking the proper measures I believe in the limitations they've made in my state when it comes to big get togethers. It's gonna be different for a while but we'll get back to some normalcy soon enough.

 

I think people are overreacting over here actually. At least it doesn't make total sense why everything's shutting down indefinitely for this one, but Swine Flu and Bird Flu and Sars and Ebola and ever other major health scare of the past 20 years didn't have half this effect. But oh well, people overreacting is probably what will keep the US from winding up like China in this mess...

Overreacting is putting it mildly...

 

That's the mindset that will get people killed. The time to react is a month ago. We should have been hunkering down then. If we all did, then this thing would have had a fair chance of dying out by now. Instead we are at least one order of magnitude worse off (amount of spread) than we were. It will keep spreading unchecked unless we limit humans contact with each other.

 

I cannot conceive of people's inability to understand these simple concepts.

 

Let's come back to this post in a month. We'll see who's right.

 

Almost 2 weeks. How are we doing?

 

1 week short of a month. How are we doing? Still overreacting?

 

 

So. Been 1 month now. Have we over-reacted?

 

I have seen videos from ICU's in Italy. I'm pretty sure every person I saw is now dead.

 

I have seen videos and photos of hospitals in the States, showing so many dead that the bodies are bagged up and stored in offices. f***ing offices.

 

Mass graves being dug for victims in Potters Field, NYC.

 

The thing isn't only a lung disease. It attacks the blood and kidneys. Ventilators are no longer the problem, now we need dialysis machines.

 

So tell me - are we over-reacting yet? How many have to die from this population killer before it's taken seriously by the numb of mind?

 

 

> 80,000 dead in less than 2 months, Have we over-reacted yet?

Yes, very much so.

 

How so? Please elaborate.

 

Let me guess, the numbers of dead are inflated? The virus is fake? More people die in 2 months of something else, than COVID has taken?

 

What's the basis?

 

Let me ask you instead - at what point is it worth it to flush the entire economy of the country down the toilet? At what point should we shut down everything and ruin people's lives, people who have worked to start businesses, people in college, trying to learn a field and get an education for their future? At what point do we stop doing surgeries that are considered "elective" and make people wait? At what point do we all hide in our houses, not go out to restaurants, not even go out to get a hair cut? What number of deaths? How many cases of this virus? Is there a number of deaths you feel would make this worth the cost of the entire economy and people's lives? Have you accounted for increase in suicides, increase in number people putting off going to the doctor for things that could end up being deadly like mammograms?

 

And to answer your question as to whether I believe the 80,000 is a valid number, no I do not believe the 80,000 number is correct. I think it is greatly over inflated. When the government gives a 20% bonus for "Covid Related Deaths" on Medicare payments, it creates incentive to game the system for money and there is no doubt that is exactly what is happening. Even just this morning, I posted in the SOCN area of this board this article, telling how a man who died of alcohol poisoning went down as a Covid 19 death. https://www.fr24news...rus-report.html

 

And I guarantee that is far from the only one. New York has admitted that they aren't even confirming Covid-19 deaths, they are going by "presumption". So if someone dies of pneumonia, they just "assume" it was Covid 19 and classify it as such.

 

Are you aware of the death statistics and who is dying? Do you really put forth that all those who have died from "Covid 19" would have lived otherwise? I can't believe you can actually believe that when the average age is so high and a staggering 98% of all deaths had underlying conditions to begin with https://www.worldome...x-demographics/

 

In a nutshell, even if the 80,000 deaths was a valid number and were legitimate Covid 19 related deaths, I put forth that a very large number of those people would be dead regardless of Covid 19.

 

You should post in SOCN area if you really want to discuss, as you may find yourself more educated on this if you did instead of lambasting anyone who doesn't automatically buy the chicken little hysteria on this.

 

I suppose there are things that I am not as educated about in this space. I have been following this virus since Jan 10. All I see is a trail of death. Even if some of it may be inflated in the US. There is still a killer virus, and there are still a huge number of fatal cases that wouldn't have happened in 2 months otherwise.

 

What's the cost of a life or lives in the face of a killer virus, vs economic cost.

 

I don't want to die from the thing. Do you? Who does? How do we protect them?

 

How do we protect people until such time that there is reliable contract tracing and testing?

 

Every reopening introduces countless vectors for the virus to spread. Who's life is worth it people going out to a bar or a concert?

 

But if we don't start reopening how are we supposed to learn anything new about how the virus is or isn't spreading? Here in New York state we've been on lockdown for two months now with only people who work in essential services and folks going out to the store being suggested. For the most part everyone has been following that. After two months on lockdown, we have nothing new to learn about the virus. The only way to learn how big of a threat it may be is to open back up. I'm not suggesting we just go back to how things were at the start of the year but a slow reopen is the best thing we can do right now.

 

You say that you're seeing nothing but a trail of death. If you work in healthcare then I can't imagine what you may have seen during this but if you don't then I don't get how that's all you're seeing. Far more people are surviving this than are dying from it.

 

We can't just keep sitting around waiting for a cure. We've done that for the last two months. Now we need to open back up and see what happens.

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ad. Who's life is worth it people going out to a bar or a concert?

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I wish it were as simple as that, I really do. Our county in PA went to yellow status today, which means more reopening, yay! Planning on spending some money and doing some curbside pickups tomorrow!

 

However, your argument about Joe the barber ignores asymptomatic carriers. Our county prison had mandatory testing last week and several inmates and staff tested positive. Out of those, 80 percent showed no symptoms. Nationwide, the CDC estimates that 25-50 percent of people with Covid are asymptomatic, yet still can spread the virus. So, if Joe is an asymptomatic carrier and spreads the virus to some of his customers, 25-50 percent of those may be asymptomatic as well. And then they go and cough on me while they're walking their dog and I'm weeding my yard or whatever. That's what has been the bugaboo about this stinkin' virus all along- it can spread with no one realizing it. Myself, I hope for a mutation to something less deadly. :hi:

Yes and people know that risk - do they want to take the risk going to the barber shop knowing that maybe, just maybe, the guy cutting hair (or the person standing next to them on the bus or whatever) might maybe have the virus. So if you are afraid of that then don't go to a barber shop - or make sure you only go to a barber shop where the barber is using a mask. But don't tell me that I can't go to a barber and don't tell Joe he can't cut hair and make a living because of your perceived risk. If you don't want to go places no one is making you. If you don't leave your house then you won't get sick, right?

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ad. Who's life is worth it people going out to a bar or a concert?

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I wish it were as simple as that, I really do. Our county in PA went to yellow status today, which means more reopening, yay! Planning on spending some money and doing some curbside pickups tomorrow!

 

However, your argument about Joe the barber ignores asymptomatic carriers. Our county prison had mandatory testing last week and several inmates and staff tested positive. Out of those, 80 percent showed no symptoms. Nationwide, the CDC estimates that 25-50 percent of people with Covid are asymptomatic, yet still can spread the virus. So, if Joe is an asymptomatic carrier and spreads the virus to some of his customers, 25-50 percent of those may be asymptomatic as well. And then they go and cough on me while they're walking their dog and I'm weeding my yard or whatever. That's what has been the bugaboo about this stinkin' virus all along- it can spread with no one realizing it. Myself, I hope for a mutation to something less deadly. :hi:

Yes and people know that risk - do they want to take the risk going to the barber shop knowing that maybe, just maybe, the guy cutting hair (or the person standing next to them on the bus or whatever) might maybe have the virus. So if you are afraid of that then don't go to a barber shop - or make sure you only go to a barber shop where the barber is using a mask. But don't tell me that I can't go to a barber and don't tell Joe he can't cut hair and make a living because of your perceived risk. If you don't want to go places no one is making you. If you don't leave your house then you won't get sick, right?

 

I don't disagree, but it's a lottery nobody should win. :( Hopefully this summer will see more things open back up safely.

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Nope, I don't want to die from it. I also don't want to die in a car accident, but I drive every day and take that risk knowing 38,000 people die every single year and knowing that I am taking a risk on my own life as ell as my children in the car every time. I don't want to die of the flu when it goes around every year, but I still go out. Life is full of risks. That is the decision for me to make in everything I do. I don't want cancer so I CHOSE to stop smoking. No one made me. 647,000 Americans die from heart disease every year. Do I want the government to make fast food and fried food (or anything else the government deems "unsafe") illegal in the name of saving lives? Nope. I think I'll make the choice myself whether to eat like shit or not.

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I'd argue that this virus is significantly more deadly than any other thing. Even if you don't want to say 80,000 dead in the US because of inflated numbers. I'll be generous and cut that in half. So 40,000 dead in 2 months.

 

Houston, we have a problem. The number of increased deaths is undeniable. They are burying people in mass graves in NYC, because so many are dying. So many more than normal. What's the cause of all that death? The media shoving it down our throats?

 

It's real buddy.

 

And the solution isn't as simple as some guy afraid of dying staying home. Staying home is also supposed to SLOW THE VIRUS DOWN, so that it has a reduced chance to spread to the vulnerable. Until there are vaccines and treatments.

 

People are really showing their selfish, true colors with this thing. Normally I wouldn't give a shit. But people are dying because of it.

 

And yeah, I look forward to the day that we can safely have beer together. I'll buy the first round.

Edited by grep
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Nope, I don't want to die from it. I also don't want to die in a car accident, but I drive every day and take that risk knowing 38,000 people die every single year and knowing that I am taking a risk on my own life as ell as my children in the car every time. I don't want to die of the flu when it goes around every year, but I still go out. Life is full of risks. That is the decision for me to make in everything I do. I don't want cancer so I CHOSE to stop smoking. No one made me. 647,000 Americans die from heart disease every year. Do I want the government to make fast food and fried food (or anything else the government deems "unsafe") illegal in the name of saving lives? Nope. I think I'll make the choice myself whether to eat like shit or not.

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I'd argue that this virus is significantly more deadly than any other thing. Even if you don't want to say 80,000 dead in the US because of inflated numbers. I'll be generous and cut that in half. So 40,000 dead in 2 months.

 

Houston, we have a problem. The number of increased deaths is undeniable. They are burying people in mass graves in NYC, because so many are dying. So many more than normal. What's the cause of all that death? The media shoving it down our throats?

 

It's real buddy.

 

And the solution isn't as simple as some guy afraid of dying staying home. Staying home is also supposed to SLOW THE VIRUS DOWN, so that it has a reduced chance to spread to the vulnerable. Until there are vaccines and treatments.

 

People are really showing their selfish, true colors with this thing. Normally I wouldn't give a shit. But people are dying because of it.

 

And yeah, I look forward to the day that we can safely have beer together. I'll buy the first round.

 

No shit it's real, buddy.

 

So is the flu.

 

Do you react like this every year when the flu comes around and kills up to 60,000- 65,000 people? No? Why not? It's a real question you should ask yourself.

 

You almost seem militant to anyone who doesn't completely agree with you and want to seal themselves in a cave and not come out until a vaccine is ready. That is your choice to do that. Seal yourself in. Many of the rest of us are ready to get back to normal life and would rather "take the risk".

 

Keep yourself sealed in - and people who feel they are at risk - stay in hiding. The opening of businesses and regular life that you are so against does not affect you because you are hunkering down until there is a vaccine or the virus goes away through herd immunity. So my going out won't affect you at all. In fact you should want people to all go out while you don't and then the 60-70% herd immunity will happen for you.

 

Maybe you are the one who is selfish, not the ones willing to "take a chance" and who want to get the economic engine of this country running again.

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Nope, I don't want to die from it. I also don't want to die in a car accident, but I drive every day and take that risk knowing 38,000 people die every single year and knowing that I am taking a risk on my own life as ell as my children in the car every time. I don't want to die of the flu when it goes around every year, but I still go out. Life is full of risks. That is the decision for me to make in everything I do. I don't want cancer so I CHOSE to stop smoking. No one made me. 647,000 Americans die from heart disease every year. Do I want the government to make fast food and fried food (or anything else the government deems "unsafe") illegal in the name of saving lives? Nope. I think I'll make the choice myself whether to eat like shit or not.

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I'd argue that this virus is significantly more deadly than any other thing. Even if you don't want to say 80,000 dead in the US because of inflated numbers. I'll be generous and cut that in half. So 40,000 dead in 2 months.

 

Houston, we have a problem. The number of increased deaths is undeniable. They are burying people in mass graves in NYC, because so many are dying. So many more than normal. What's the cause of all that death? The media shoving it down our throats?

 

It's real buddy.

 

And the solution isn't as simple as some guy afraid of dying staying home. Staying home is also supposed to SLOW THE VIRUS DOWN, so that it has a reduced chance to spread to the vulnerable. Until there are vaccines and treatments.

 

People are really showing their selfish, true colors with this thing. Normally I wouldn't give a shit. But people are dying because of it.

 

And yeah, I look forward to the day that we can safely have beer together. I'll buy the first round.

 

Nobody is suggesting that NYC should start reopening though, are they? Obviously areas that were hit the hardest shouldn't even be thinking about it. But what about other areas that are safe? Some businesses owner in Texas shouldn't have to stay closed just because people are dying in NYC if their region is safe. There's no reason why areas that didn't have a high rate of infection shouldn't be trying to reopen now. Nobody here is saying we need to immediately go back to how things were at the start of the year. We just want to see the process of reopening start in the areas that are safe enough to do so.

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Nope, I don't want to die from it. I also don't want to die in a car accident, but I drive every day and take that risk knowing 38,000 people die every single year and knowing that I am taking a risk on my own life as ell as my children in the car every time. I don't want to die of the flu when it goes around every year, but I still go out. Life is full of risks. That is the decision for me to make in everything I do. I don't want cancer so I CHOSE to stop smoking. No one made me. 647,000 Americans die from heart disease every year. Do I want the government to make fast food and fried food (or anything else the government deems "unsafe") illegal in the name of saving lives? Nope. I think I'll make the choice myself whether to eat like shit or not.

 

 

Well here is a really simple solution:

 

If YOU are scared to go out because of the virus, the You don't have to go out.

 

If Joe who owns Joe's Barber Shop wants to "take the risk" and risk exposing him self to Covid 19, then he can do so. His opening his barber shop doesn't affect you at all - because you are staying home, right?

 

Look at it this way - you should want things to open up while you hunker down because herd immunity will happen much quicker. Then when it's all over in a few years you can unseal your bunker and come out and have a beer with me in a bar without maintaining 6 feet distance. :cheers:

 

I'd argue that this virus is significantly more deadly than any other thing. Even if you don't want to say 80,000 dead in the US because of inflated numbers. I'll be generous and cut that in half. So 40,000 dead in 2 months.

 

Houston, we have a problem. The number of increased deaths is undeniable. They are burying people in mass graves in NYC, because so many are dying. So many more than normal. What's the cause of all that death? The media shoving it down our throats?

 

It's real buddy.

 

And the solution isn't as simple as some guy afraid of dying staying home. Staying home is also supposed to SLOW THE VIRUS DOWN, so that it has a reduced chance to spread to the vulnerable. Until there are vaccines and treatments.

 

People are really showing their selfish, true colors with this thing. Normally I wouldn't give a shit. But people are dying because of it.

 

And yeah, I look forward to the day that we can safely have beer together. I'll buy the first round.

 

Nobody is suggesting that NYC should start reopening though, are they? Obviously areas that were hit the hardest shouldn't even be thinking about it. But what about other areas that are safe? Some businesses owner in Texas shouldn't have to stay closed just because people are dying in NYC if their region is safe. There's no reason why areas that didn't have a high rate of infection shouldn't be trying to reopen now. Nobody here is saying we need to immediately go back to how things were at the start of the year. We just want to see the process of reopening start in the areas that are safe enough to do so.

 

I bet some are suggesting NYC should reopen soon. I bet some are saying lockdowns shouldn’t have happened in the first place. But those that say those things could certainly be ridiculed by others who don’t share those opinions....just as those who are saying to maintain lockdowns might be ridiculed for not getting back to work.

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"If we compare, for instance, the number of people who died in the United States from COVID-19 in the second full week of April to the number of people who died from influenza during the worst week of the past seven flu seasons (as reported to the CDC), we find that the novel coronavirus killed between 9.5 and 44 times more people than seasonal flu. In other words, the coronavirus is not anything like the flu: It is much, much worse."

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/comparing-covid-19-deaths-to-flu-deaths-is-like-comparing-apples-to-oranges/

 

One thing about the "typical " flu, each year we have a vaccine that helps prevent deaths, with COVID 19 there is none and it is debatable when one will arrive despite some magical thinking by the Pres. He wants us to be warriors and go out and get the economy going but most of the states who have been reopening are not even waiting for the cases to have declined before running pell mell into the breach. We don't have a coherent national policy so every state is going to what it wants no matter what. But we all don't exist in our own little bubbles and the virus doesn't care about county lines or state borders.

 

We have to admit that our response to the virus was a mess, we lost precious time in February and March to make changes like the lockdown and ramping up testing to slow down the disease. Now we have to work with what we have and just pretending that it is magically going away is ludicrous. I have been reading some on the 1918 pandemic and the parallels are very similar. Everyone wanted to get back to living, they had the World Series. The final three games were held at Fenway Park, drawing total attendance of more than 62,000. The crowds at games, parades and war rallies became “biological bombs” that helped fuel the course of the epidemic. By the end of the year, 4,800 Bostonians had died.

If we are to open up, we need to do more testing (and we are not doing near enough, regardless of what some say) and not let our guard down. The 1918 pandemic had 3 waves, do we really want to push that possibilty?

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But we all don't exist in our own little bubbles and the virus doesn't care about county lines or state borders.

 

Indeed.....at this very moment, Illinois residents - with their very high number of infections - are whooshing up to Wisconsin and its lack of any State mandated shutdown. They're coming up here to play, to frolic at Lake Geneva, to escape their Shutdown homes.

 

If the coronavirus were a sentient species, it would be saying, "Oh, goody goody!"

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