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Neil's death and the concept of God and Time


GodandTime
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Ok. I'm NOT NOT NOT trolling

 

I want to open a discussion on Neil's belief system and the Clockwork Angel album.

 

The Clockwork Angels Concept Album came from his personal beliefs that God is only the movement of TIME.... but to love one another until death ...because after death there's only a spirit abolishment.

 

According to his own lyrics,

 

All is for the best

Believe in what we're told

 

Blind man in the market

Buying what we're sold

 

(Possible references to The Bible and things being bought and sold as a marketplace at Solomon's Temple..Because the concept of the song is that being taught The Bible is a lie, Neil's beliefs, not mine..... in his childhood)

 

Believe in what we're told

Until our final breath

 

While our loving Watchmaker

Loves us all to death

 

So.... interrupting Neil's own words, God is the Watchmaker....when you're out of time and die.. that's it... no further existence.

 

Using this belief system I'm not understanding Geddy and Alex's official statement of R.I.P.

 

Rest in what?

If Neil's beliefs that the Watchmaker says your out of time and no further existence....

What is there to Rest in?

What peace?

Peace in nothingness?

 

Again NOOOOO trolling here! I just want an INTELLIGENT open discussion on Neil's death and his belief system well documented in Clockwork Angels

 

Keep it civil ppl. Plz

 

 

.

Edited by GodandTime
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Pretty much that. We have the time we have, so make the best of it. The rest is illusion.

 

Set that idea to an adaptation of Candide and you've got Clockwork Angels.

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Life is conflict.

Peace is the absence of conflict.

 

Ergo, Peace is the absence of life. ;) ;)

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I'm guessing that Al and Ged used commonplace, well established language to describe their feelings at Neil's passing, and that it wasn't time to bring these concepts into the discussion as a distraction.

 

Neil, at least in his public pronouncements up to the end, appeared to believe that after life was complete, there is nothingness. Al and Ged, from what I've read, agree. There are many that don't. No one knows with certainty. But within their belief system, nothingness can be considered restful in the sense that there is no suffering, conflict, and disturbance. I see no contradiction there.

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Pretty much that. We have the time we have, so make the best of it. The rest is illusion.

 

Set that idea to an adaptation of Candide and you've got Clockwork Angels.

 

My father passed away in his 80’s of terminal cancer. He mirrored this thought saying, “I lived my life and it’s time to get out of the way and let the next guy have some fun with it”. And I just think that’s the most admirable way to look at life/death...except he lived a full life. Tragedy makes it different and the sadness I feel at this is to his family, young daughter that he loved, and that he never got to enjoy his later years. I feel sadness knowing Imhe won’t get to write and we won’t get to read his words again.

 

Some bizarre test? Nah. Just life. Value what you have and cherish it. Make the most. It’s all we got.

Edited by Running Rebel
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@goose

 

Then the concept of the official statement of R.I.P. is kinda hypocritical if Neil is no longer existing but forever abolished only leaving behind a legacy

 

Rest in peace (which comes from the Latin Requiescat in pace) wishes the deceased eternal peace in the afterlife.

 

Today's usage of the phrase is not hypocritical. It's merely one of a great many examples of older religious words and phrases being used in a secular context today. It's not much different than saying "goodbye" to someone or "bless you" when someone sneezes.

Edited by Principled Man
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@goose

 

Then the concept of the official statement of R.I.P. is kinda hypocritical if Neil is no longer existing but forever abolished only leaving behind a legacy

 

Rest in peace (which comes from the Latin Requiescat in pace) wishes the deceased eternal peace in the afterlife.

 

Today's usage of the phrase is not hypocritical. It's merely one of a great many examples of older religious words and phrases being used in a secular context today. It's not much different than saying "goodbye" to someone or "bless you" when someone sneezes.

Yes, the mistake being made here is to confuse the use of ritualistic language with belief in the literal meaning of that language.

 

Death is one of a handful of occasions in life when we find the best way of expressing our thoughts and feelings is by recourse to time-tested and ancient language. By saying "rest in peace" are they implying a belief in an afterlife? No, they're using the phrase because "rest in peace" is what one says at a time like this. It's not intended as philosophical or religious commentary. Those words are used because they're familiar, and because they express the grief and wishes of those who are left behind.

 

Neil was explicitly clear about his religious beliefs during his lifetime. He wrote dozens of songs alluding to them, and thousands of words of prose on top of that. This isn't a case of "no atheists in a foxhole", this is just grieving humans attempting to come to terms with something beyond the understanding of the human mind, and reaching for the language that best approaches it.

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1578777581[/url'>' post='4717226']
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@goose

 

Then the concept of the official statement of R.I.P. is kinda hypocritical if Neil is no longer existing but forever abolished only leaving behind a legacy

 

Rest in peace (which comes from the Latin Requiescat in pace) wishes the deceased eternal peace in the afterlife.

 

Today's usage of the phrase is not hypocritical. It's merely one of a great many examples of older religious words and phrases being used in a secular context today. It's not much different than saying "goodbye" to someone or "bless you" when someone sneezes.

 

Yes, the mistake being made here is to confuse the use of ritualistic language with belief in the literal meaning of that language.

 

Death is one of a handful of occasions in life when we find the best way of expressing our thoughts and feelings is by recourse to time-tested and ancient language. By saying "rest in peace" are they implying a belief in an afterlife? No, they're using the phrase because "rest in peace" is what one says at a time like this. It's not intended as philosophical or religious commentary. Those words are used because they're familiar, and because they express the grief and wishes of those who are left behind.

 

Neil was explicitly clear about his religious beliefs during his lifetime. He wrote dozens of songs alluding to them, and thousands of words of prose on top of that. This isn't a case of "no atheists in a foxhole", this is just grieving humans attempting to come to terms with something beyond the understanding of the human mind, and reaching for the language that best approaches it.

 

And when we think about it, wishing peace to the deceased is more likely a wish for ourselves.

 

The deceased is, in fact, at peace. We are not. We're miserable. It's why we have funeral rituals; we have them to ease OUR pain.

Edited by Principled Man
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My interpretation of Rest in Peace would be that the memory of the deceased is respected, loved and not used to further any conflicts. That is because I'm unconvinced that there is an afterlife of heaven and hell. I was also brought up to believe but as time went on it just didn't add up. Kinda like the whole Santa Claus thing. Now I did reach the "Santa doesn't exist" conclusion much sooner than God, but it was essentially the same critical thinking that got me there.

 

It's mainly a respectful, loving thing to say when someone dies. I still say "Bless You" when someone sneezes - it's polite.

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Pretty much that. We have the time we have, so make the best of it. The rest is illusion.

 

Set that idea to an adaptation of Candide and you've got Clockwork Angels.

 

My father passed away in his 80’s of terminal cancer. He mirrored this thought saying, “I lived my life and it’s time to get out of the way and let the next guy have some fun with it”. And I just think that’s the most admirable way to look at life/death...except he lived a full life. Tragedy makes it different and the sadness I feel at this is to his family, young daughter that he loved, and that he never got to enjoy his later years. I feel sadness knowing Imhe won’t get to write and we won’t get to read his words again.

 

Some bizarre test? Nah. Just life. Value what you have and cherish it. Make the most. It’s all we got.

While I accept the possibility that there is something in the quantum realm that no one understands, I don't put any faith in it. We know that here and now exist, and our brains are programed to deal with the reality that our senses perceve.

Although events occur that seem a little too coincidental, and some people chalk it up to "karma", it is just our brain's way of dealing with data, and if someone got justice, then it was just coincidence.

I've seen 2 people take their final breath and I'm convinced that this life is all there is. Tell them you love them NOW. Whatever you want to do, do it NOW. You may not see tomorrow. It really isn't worth holding grudges, because you're only stressing yourself out and damaging your own body.

Any good on this earth is done by us, and any evils that are extinguished and revenged are done by us. Those responsibilities are OURS and we shouldn't shirk our duty.

 

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Pretty much that. We have the time we have, so make the best of it. The rest is illusion.

 

Set that idea to an adaptation of Candide and you've got Clockwork Angels.

 

My father passed away in his 80’s of terminal cancer. He mirrored this thought saying, “I lived my life and it’s time to get out of the way and let the next guy have some fun with it”. And I just think that’s the most admirable way to look at life/death...except he lived a full life. Tragedy makes it different and the sadness I feel at this is to his family, young daughter that he loved, and that he never got to enjoy his later years. I feel sadness knowing Imhe won’t get to write and we won’t get to read his words again.

 

Some bizarre test? Nah. Just life. Value what you have and cherish it. Make the most. It’s all we got.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. That's terrible.
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Best not to overthink it. No one knows what happens after we pass, we can only speculate. People are using kind words because kindness is what’s called for at this sad and difficult time.
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@goose

 

Then the concept of the official statement of R.I.P. is kinda hypocritical if Neil is no longer existing but forever abolished only leaving behind a legacy

His legacy lives on.

 

In the Hispanic tradition, we die three deaths. There is the physical death of our body, our interment, and the moment when we are forgotten. In that sense, Neil lives on.

 

 

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Pretty much that. We have the time we have, so make the best of it. The rest is illusion.

 

Set that idea to an adaptation of Candide and you've got Clockwork Angels.

 

My father passed away in his 80’s of terminal cancer. He mirrored this thought saying, “I lived my life and it’s time to get out of the way and let the next guy have some fun with it”. And I just think that’s the most admirable way to look at life/death...except he lived a full life. Tragedy makes it different and the sadness I feel at this is to his family, young daughter that he loved, and that he never got to enjoy his later years. I feel sadness knowing Imhe won’t get to write and we won’t get to read his words again.

 

Some bizarre test? Nah. Just life. Value what you have and cherish it. Make the most. It’s all we got.

I'm only 54, but I feel like I've gotten more out of life than 99.9% of people get. The years I have left, and I hope they are many, are gravy.

 

 

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Regardless of Neil's thoughts on an afterlife or lack thereof, I'm just glad he spoke out at the hypocrisy of organized religion in America and the GOP party in general. Most people that call themselves "Christians" are anything but. If you have read his books, he goes into detail on his thoughts. Edited by presto123
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Ii always likes the Dreamline lyric "We're only immortal for a limited time"... That sums up my philosophy on life and that I don't believe that there's something after we die. It's sad but true...
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I'm guessing that Al and Ged used commonplace, well established language to describe their feelings at Neil's passing, and that it wasn't time to bring these concepts into the discussion as a distraction.

 

Neil, at least in his public pronouncements up to the end, appeared to believe that after life was complete, there is nothingness. Al and Ged, from what I've read, agree. There are many that don't. No one knows with certainty. But within their belief system, nothingness can be considered restful in the sense that there is no suffering, conflict, and disturbance. I see no contradiction there.

Fantastic observation.

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Regardless of Neil's thoughts on an afterlife or lack thereof, I'm just glad he spoke out at the hypocrisy of organized religion in America and the GOP party in general. Most people that call themselves "Christians" are anything but. If you have read his books, he goes into detail on his thoughts.

I disagree with that. Christians give and they give to the point to hurting themselves financially. My father gave 10% of his gross paycheck to tithes, plus, other offerings, fund raisers, and his time to church functions. We grew up low middle class and lived in a small asbestos siding house and drove used cars. We didn't do without, but we could've had a lot more. My mom was furious that dad emptied his 401k to give it to the church, and, if she hadn't have died first, it could have been a problem. He's not the only one that gave/gives of their money and time. Many other Christians give in this manner, too, especially after federal and state taxes, and it's a bit unfair to kick them and call them hypocrites, when they're trying to do what is right.

 

Now, whether they're doing it for the right or wrong reason is another debate, and so is the churchs' leaders efficiency in spending that money.

 

No Christian claims to be perfect, and, in this age of political divisiveness, a lot of Christians are getting sucked into political rhetoric, but I think they're trying.

 

I'm an atheist, and, if I go to church, they'll feed me just like any other person.

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Regardless of Neil's thoughts on an afterlife or lack thereof, I'm just glad he spoke out at the hypocrisy of organized religion in America and the GOP party in general. Most people that call themselves "Christians" are anything but. If you have read his books, he goes into detail on his thoughts.

 

The Sense O'Clock News is the appropriate sub-forum for arguing religion and politics.

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Using this belief system I'm not understanding Geddy and Alex's official statement of R.I.P.

 

 

I never use 'RIP' myself, because as you suggest, it's nonsense. I suspect that Geddy and Alex, if they were actually responsible for that rather than someone in the band's management, used it only as a polite convention.

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