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Subdivisions synth choir effect


LeChuck
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(Yet another lingering question that's been bugging me for years ..)

 

On Subdivisions there is a synth track with an effect that sounds loosely like a choir in the full mix. It comes in around 0:27 in the intro, and comes back again at the very end of the song. When you listen to the isolated synth track, it sounds less like a choir and more like a weird phaser-like effect. It's not the same choir sound from The Analog Kid either, which is a synth patch on the OB-X(a). This just sounds more like a thick effect that got applied.

 

Anyone have any idea what that is? Per my Jacob's Ladder vocal effect thread, I sent this question to Terry Brown in a mail earlier today .. maybe if I'm lucky he'll reply back with some good info.

 

PS - I also can't find the isolated synth track on YouTube anymore - does anyone have a copy saved? I have the isolated synth track from Jammit, but it's not the same as what used to be on YouTube (where the 'choir' effect could be heard really clearly - I suspect there are multiple synth tracks stacked up on Subdivisions).

 

Edit - Here is a 'vocals only' isolated track still on YouTube where you can hear this sound a little better at 0:27 and 4:50

Edited by LeChuck
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Mellotron?
I wish I could find the better isolated track that used to be on YouTube. You can hear the effect pretty clearly, and it sounds like something that was applied really thick to another synth track. One of my guitar buddies listened to it and said it sounded like a phaser, which I agree it does. But it doesn't seem to be a cyclical effect. And it doesn't seem like something a synth could produce (atleast not any of the synths he was using then).

 

I'd love to figure this one out someday. It was my number one question to ask Geddy about at the book signing (although I blinked and it was over before I could ask anything ;))

Edited by LeChuck
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(Yet another lingering question that's been bugging me for years ..)

 

On Subdivisions there is a synth track with an effect that sounds loosely like a choir in the full mix. It comes in around 0:27 in the intro, and comes back again at the very end of the song. When you listen to the isolated synth track, it sounds less like a choir and more like a weird phaser-like effect. It's not the same choir sound from The Analog Kid either, which is a synth patch on the OB-X(a). This just sounds more like a thick effect that got applied.

 

Anyone have any idea what that is? Per my Jacob's Ladder vocal effect thread, I sent this question to Terry Brown in a mail earlier today .. maybe if I'm lucky he'll reply back with some good info.

 

PS - I also can't find the isolated synth track on YouTube anymore - does anyone have a copy saved? I have the isolated synth track from Jammit, but it's not the same as what used to be on YouTube (where the 'choir' effect could be heard really clearly - I suspect there are multiple synth tracks stacked up on Subdivisions).

 

Edit - Here is a 'vocals only' isolated track still on YouTube where you can hear this sound a little better at 0:27 and 4:50

I have to laugh. You remind me of myself. Listening to music with a fine-tooth comb - what's this? what's that? :LOL:

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I have to laugh. You remind me of myself. Listening to music with a fine-tooth comb - what's this? what's that? :LOL:

It is kind of torture - there are a million more I'd love to know. Is the Minimoog making those ray gun sound effects on Cygnus X-1? What's that chime-sounding thing in the second half of Witch Hunt? How did they make the intro sound effect on Distant Early Warning? What synth is that in the background of New World Man? Ahhhhh!

 

The worst part is knowing that guys like Geddy and Terry Brown and Jack Secret could probably answer all these in a few minutes. If only I could get in touch with them .. (I had an idea of buying up about 100 books for the signing and then asking Geddy everything I wanted to know ;))

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I have to laugh. You remind me of myself. Listening to music with a fine-tooth comb - what's this? what's that? :LOL:

It is kind of torture - there are a million more I'd love to know. Is the Minimoog making those ray gun sound effects on Cygnus X-1? What's that chime-sounding thing in the second half of Witch Hunt? How did they make the intro sound effect on Distant Early Warning? What synth is that in the background of New World Man? Ahhhhh!

 

The worst part is knowing that guys like Geddy and Terry Brown and Jack Secret could probably answer all these in a few minutes. If only I could get in touch with them .. (I had an idea of buying up about 100 books for the signing and then asking Geddy everything I wanted to know ;))

 

I got a good laugh out of that.

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Just sounds like an early choir patch or synth voice from an oberheim that's layered in on a separate track to give that section a bit more gravitas on the b minor chords. With new world man are you on about the bass riff at the start or the single notes before the middle eight?
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Just sounds like an early choir patch or synth voice from an oberheim that's layered in on a separate track to give that section a bit more gravitas on the b minor chords. With new world man are you on about the bass riff at the start or the single notes before the middle eight?

Yep, I had that approach at first and tried to recreate this sound on my OB-X. But it's not really capable of making the kind of sound you hear on the isolated track. Sounds like something a PPG Wave could do, although of course he didn't have that yet. I don't have a Jupiter-8, but it's capabilities are not really all that different from the OB in this regard.

 

It is interesting that he uses a choir sound on The Analog Kid, and that one can be patched on the OB-X(a). But for Subdivisions he uses this other weird sound that isn't a choir patch, but sounds like a choir patch in the full mix. Mind blowing ;)

 

At the risk of derailing my own thread, for New World Man I was referring to those single notes that float around in the slower sections before the chorus ("Trying to save the day for the old-world man .."). I haven't tried to recreate those yet, but my recollection is that they also have a weird modulation going on that may or may not be possible on these synths.

 

PS - I would like to know the story of how they made that "bullfrog" sequence for the intro. That is an interesting sound choice ..

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Possibly with a heavy chorus effect and reverb? That would give a similar sound, the oberheim couldn't quite give the warmth that a Jupiter could. Always thought that the bass riff was also ob-x, a simple 16 note sequence that ran through the intro. Miss those keys!!
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How did they make the intro sound effect on Distant Early Warning?

Quoting myself here, but I will admit this particular sound is driving me crazy lately. Anyone have any idea how they might have made this sound? The PPG Wave was his new synth for this album, so I always wondered if he could have made it on that. But it doesn't really sound at all like what you get out of a Wave (I own a Wave 2.3 and am pretty familiar with its capabilities) .. so I'm guessing it's a more traditionally made sound effect - e.g. speeding up some sound effect on tape to get that whirling effect.

 

Anyone ever read anything about the making of this sound? Once again this drives me crazy since Geddy could probably tell me in 5 seconds what this was

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(Yet another lingering question that's been bugging me for years ..)

 

On Subdivisions there is a synth track with an effect that sounds loosely like a choir in the full mix. It comes in around 0:27 in the intro, and comes back again at the very end of the song. When you listen to the isolated synth track, it sounds less like a choir and more like a weird phaser-like effect. It's not the same choir sound from The Analog Kid either, which is a synth patch on the OB-X(a). This just sounds more like a thick effect that got applied.

 

Anyone have any idea what that is? Per my Jacob's Ladder vocal effect thread, I sent this question to Terry Brown in a mail earlier today .. maybe if I'm lucky he'll reply back with some good info.

 

PS - I also can't find the isolated synth track on YouTube anymore - does anyone have a copy saved? I have the isolated synth track from Jammit, but it's not the same as what used to be on YouTube (where the 'choir' effect could be heard really clearly - I suspect there are multiple synth tracks stacked up on Subdivisions).

 

Edit - Here is a 'vocals only' isolated track still on YouTube where you can hear this sound a little better at 0:27 and 4:50

I have to laugh. You remind me of myself. Listening to music with a fine-tooth comb - what's this? what's that? :lol:

 

LOL I do this sometimes too...I loved listening to the quiet part before the guitar solo in Open Secrets, for example, and listening to the various instruments and effects layered in there.

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The thing with syntesizers and samplers is that you can manipulate almost any sound to make the base sound unrecognizable. A buddy of mine took a bass note on a little cheap sampler once and turned it into something nobody would guess was a bass note. Someone with the access to effects and equipment to make effects at the level of Geddy back then could have sampled a door slamming and turned it into those sounds. So it could literally be anything. Maybe Alex was humming along to the synth in the studio once and Geddy got the idea to sample it and mess around with it, who knows?
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The thing with syntesizers and samplers is that you can manipulate almost any sound to make the base sound unrecognizable. A buddy of mine took a bass note on a little cheap sampler once and turned it into something nobody would guess was a bass note. Someone with the access to effects and equipment to make effects at the level of Geddy back then could have sampled a door slamming and turned it into those sounds. So it could literally be anything. Maybe Alex was humming along to the synth in the studio once and Geddy got the idea to sample it and mess around with it, who knows?

Indeed, I don't even bother with trying to figure out anything after Grace Under Pressure since the technology and synths/samplers usage went bonkers. P/G feels like the last one where he might just be doing things one could figure out. Although with his PPG Wave he got a Waveterm, and I know he mentions in the Keyboard 1984 interview how he combined samples to make some sounds (e.g. the little percussive lead thing in the middle of 'Red Lenses').

 

I have a feeling this intro sound is indeed just some sound recording they manipulated and not coming from a synth. I wish I could be one of those interviewers who has access to him, I'd love to fill up an interview with a bunch of these 'how did you do that?' questions ;)

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I wonder about a bunch of the synth/effect sounds, too. It frustrates me that Geddy is now so into the history of bass and has distanced himself from the synth era of his playing, because I find his early rigs and choices very interesting. Once he got into full MIDI with the newest keyboard just used to trigger samples, it's pretty boring...but that stuff with his Taurus pedals being used to trigger the OB-X is so cool...but he seems to have no nostalgia for it at all. It's a shame.
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I wonder about a bunch of the synth/effect sounds, too. It frustrates me that Geddy is now so into the history of bass and has distanced himself from the synth era of his playing, because I find his early rigs and choices very interesting. Once he got into full MIDI with the newest keyboard just used to trigger samples, it's pretty boring...but that stuff with his Taurus pedals being used to trigger the OB-X is so cool...but he seems to have no nostalgia for it at all. It's a shame.

I agree completely!

 

This is the kind of thing that makes me wish I was an interviewer for a paper or website .. so I would have some shot at getting to ask him all these questions. I guess I consider it part of the 'historical record' so to speak. Feels like a shame to leave things unanswered, especially when the people that could answer them are still around. He has certainly been asked a thousand times what basses he played on what songs, what strings he uses, etc.

 

I think it would be awesome to have an interview slot and ask him about his synth usage and sound effects. Maybe it's weird enough that he would actually agree to it too? Here are some of mine, feel free to reply with more:

- Intro sound to 'Distant Early Warning' (Synth effect with heavy modulation? Or stock tape recording of an exploding horsefly?)

- Choir sound on 'Subdivisions' (mystery effect, not possible directly with his synths at the time)

- Choir sound on 'Analog Kid' (which is different than the above - played live on the OB-Xa - I can get a very close approximation on my OB-X)

- Laser blasts in the Cygnus X-1 (Pt 1) intro (I always figured this was noodling around on the Minimoog with tape echo)

- 'Afterimage' vocal sound effect he mentions in the Keyboard 1984 interview (I can never hear what he is talking about, no matter how hard I listen for this)

- That little fill he does during the "1001001" bit in 'The Body Electric' (I'm guessing from his PPG Wave)

- What is layered on the chords at the very end of 'Between the Wheels'? (Sounds like a piano, or maybe just a percussive patch from the PPG Wave)

- That chimey sound on 'Witch Hunt' ("They say there is strangeness, too dangerous ..")

- Vocal effect on the middle part of Jacob's Ladder (I meant to ask him this at the book signing but got star struck and it was over before I could blink - doh)

- What synths are doing what on 'Losing It' (the synth bass and pads on this song are great but somehow sound different than other tracks)

- How did he come up with some of those sounds on the PPG Wave for P/G (e.g. Distant Early Warning and Afterimage - kind of an organ-like sound)

- What synth/effect is that in the background of 'New World Man' ("Learning to match the beat of the old-world man ..")

- ...

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iirc, when we used to do "Subdivisions" in cover bands eons ago, I just had some sort of swimmy, ethereal PWM sound with a moderately low filter cutoff tuned an octave up that I would bring in on top of the main sound for the intro/outro...I think I had it programmed to come in when I flicked the modwheel to active position. It's interesting that I can't recall Geddy himself ever incorporating that detail live.

 

Regarding the DEW intro, I doubt that was accomplished with the onboard capabilities of any synth/sampler in his setup at that point. To my knowledge, the only sampling capability Geddy had on P/G was the Waveterm, and I don't think the lowpass-only filtering one could do in the Wave 2.2 with a Waveterm sample would accomplish what we hear on the album. To me it sounds more like some sort of noise source run through outboard effects units (possibly a chain of them). Sounds like there's a phaser in there. I remember several years ago, (I think) Howard Scarr very quickly whipped up a patch for u-he Zebra by request on the KVR forum for that sound that was sort of evocative of it but not quite there.

 

Btw, the vocal sounds Geddy referred to on "Afterimage" I'm guessing are the "aaaah" and "ooooh" drones you hear in the midsection after the second chorus. The stuff that almost reminds me of some of the male choir samples from the Spectrasonics Symphony of Voices library.

 

If anything, it actually became easier to identify sound sources from HYF and after because it seemed like there started to be less bespoke synth sounds and more use of presets. HYF is full of Prophet VS presets. Roll the Bones has a lot of Wavestation and JD800 presets on it.

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I have a feeling that the sound at the start of DEW is just a sound effect. Someone probably recorded something and then it was modified using gear in the studio. Run through an FX chain or something like that.

 

It could have been a synth sound.... but unlike the intro to 2112 - it doesn't sound very synthy. To me anyway.

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Well I'm not a synthesizer expert by any means. I know a moog from a mellotron, and I know the latter isn't a synth, and that's about it. However that sound you're talking about in Subdivisions reminds me slightly of a choirish sound used by Tony Banks on Dancing With The Moonlit Knight.
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Well I'm not a synthesizer expert by any means. I know a moog from a mellotron, and I know the latter isn't a synth, and that's about it. However that sound you're talking about in Subdivisions reminds me slightly of a choirish sound used by Tony Banks on Dancing With The Moonlit Knight.

 

Listening back to both of them though, I don't think I was right. They're not really similar enough to my ears. What really sounds like it's going on was mentioned by someone earlier: after effects. I mess around with effects in Garageband all the time, and I can think of a couple different routes I might arrive at a similar sound. Some kind of strong chorus or ensemble mixed with something that gives that loose, ethereal feel. Perhaps Geddy is just playing those notes on the same keyboard he uses fro the lower ones, and Terry and Geddy made it sound angelic in post.

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I wonder about a bunch of the synth/effect sounds, too. It frustrates me that Geddy is now so into the history of bass and has distanced himself from the synth era of his playing, because I find his early rigs and choices very interesting. Once he got into full MIDI with the newest keyboard just used to trigger samples, it's pretty boring...but that stuff with his Taurus pedals being used to trigger the OB-X is so cool...but he seems to have no nostalgia for it at all. It's a shame.

I agree completely!

 

This is the kind of thing that makes me wish I was an interviewer for a paper or website .. so I would have some shot at getting to ask him all these questions. I guess I consider it part of the 'historical record' so to speak. Feels like a shame to leave things unanswered, especially when the people that could answer them are still around. He has certainly been asked a thousand times what basses he played on what songs, what strings he uses, etc.

 

I think it would be awesome to have an interview slot and ask him about his synth usage and sound effects. Maybe it's weird enough that he would actually agree to it too? Here are some of mine, feel free to reply with more:

- Intro sound to 'Distant Early Warning' (Synth effect with heavy modulation? Or stock tape recording of an exploding horsefly?)

- Choir sound on 'Subdivisions' (mystery effect, not possible directly with his synths at the time)

- Choir sound on 'Analog Kid' (which is different than the above - played live on the OB-Xa - I can get a very close approximation on my OB-X)

- Laser blasts in the Cygnus X-1 (Pt 1) intro (I always figured this was noodling around on the Minimoog with tape echo)

- 'Afterimage' vocal sound effect he mentions in the Keyboard 1984 interview (I can never hear what he is talking about, no matter how hard I listen for this)

- That little fill he does during the "1001001" bit in 'The Body Electric' (I'm guessing from his PPG Wave)

- What is layered on the chords at the very end of 'Between the Wheels'? (Sounds like a piano, or maybe just a percussive patch from the PPG Wave)

- That chimey sound on 'Witch Hunt' ("They say there is strangeness, too dangerous ..")

- Vocal effect on the middle part of Jacob's Ladder (I meant to ask him this at the book signing but got star struck and it was over before I could blink - doh)

- What synths are doing what on 'Losing It' (the synth bass and pads on this song are great but somehow sound different than other tracks)

- How did he come up with some of those sounds on the PPG Wave for P/G (e.g. Distant Early Warning and Afterimage - kind of an organ-like sound)

- What synth/effect is that in the background of 'New World Man' ("Learning to match the beat of the old-world man ..")

- ...

 

I always assumed that the sound on Witch Hunt is an actual toy piano.

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iirc, when we used to do "Subdivisions" in cover bands eons ago, I just had some sort of swimmy, ethereal PWM sound with a moderately low filter cutoff tuned an octave up that I would bring in on top of the main sound for the intro/outro...I think I had it programmed to come in when I flicked the modwheel to active position. It's interesting that I can't recall Geddy himself ever incorporating that detail live.

Yep, that sounds like what you hear in the isolated track too. It's sort some of thick effect on something (probably another synth track). In the full mix it sounds like a choir, but isolated it sounds totally different. I wish I could figure out what the effect is, this one has been driving me crazy for years! For sure he never does anything like this live either.

 

Regarding the DEW intro, I doubt that was accomplished with the onboard capabilities of any synth/sampler in his setup at that point. To my knowledge, the only sampling capability Geddy had on P/G was the Waveterm, and I don't think the lowpass-only filtering one could do in the Wave 2.2 with a Waveterm sample would accomplish what we hear on the album. To me it sounds more like some sort of noise source run through outboard effects units (possibly a chain of them). Sounds like there's a phaser in there.

Agreed. I actually own a lot of the same equipment (incl. Wave 2.3/Waveterm) and don't see any way to make a sound like that. It does sort of sound synthetic when it first starts, but the wild modulation and especially the explosion/booming after the instruments come in doesn't seem possible for any of that gear.

 

Btw, the vocal sounds Geddy referred to on "Afterimage" I'm guessing are the "aaaah" and "ooooh" drones you hear in the midsection after the second chorus.

You're probably right. I think I was always thrown off by him saying in the interviewed that it "overlapped the main part". But he must mean the part you mention (or maybe it's in the "main part" but not distinct enough to pick out).

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Listening back to both of them though, I don't think I was right. They're not really similar enough to my ears. What really sounds like it's going on was mentioned by someone earlier: after effects. I mess around with effects in Garageband all the time, and I can think of a couple different routes I might arrive at a similar sound. Some kind of strong chorus or ensemble mixed with something that gives that loose, ethereal feel. Perhaps Geddy is just playing those notes on the same keyboard he uses fro the lower ones, and Terry and Geddy made it sound angelic in post.

Yep, agreed. When listening to the full mix I always thought this sounded like a choir sound (and assumed it was the same one he used on 'Analog Kid'). But when you hear it isolated you can hear that it's something else - more like another synth track drenched in some effect.

 

Here's a good clip where you can hear it pretty clearly in the intro -

 

I asked Terry Brown over email, and he actually replied. I can't find the mail now, but I think the gist of it was that it was a long time ago and he wasn't sure. So close!

Edited by LeChuck
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